Richard Dawkins disappoints again

[dcalling]

Now you are just blaming me for your inability to understand. Somehow you don't seem to be able to understand how water can erode rock, and somehow you perhaps think that earthquakes make meanders.

Yes I am. And the reason is the video you posted, which indicates that you believe that is how meanders are made, and I totally agree that under normal (soil) conditions that is how it is made.

However given the condtion of the rocks, it is clear that video proved it is not how the following grand canyon meander is made, as I pointed out again and again

 

[Job 33:6]

Yes I am. And the reason is the video you posted, which indicates that you believe that is how meanders are made, and I totally agree that under normal (soil) conditions that is how it is made.

However given the condtion of the rocks, it is clear that video proved it is not how the following grand canyon meander is made, as I pointed out again and again

It's unfortunate that you can't understand what is being said to you. There isn't much more I can do for you.

All the best.

 

[dcalling]

It's unfortunate that you can't understand what is being said to you. There isn't much more I can do for you.

All the best.

I posted the picture, and it is obvious that you can't "grow" rocks to form meanders, which means the video YOU posted about how meanders are formed is not suitable. And all your other explaination is obvously wrong for my picture.

 

[Job 33:6]

I posted the picture, and it is obvious that you can't "grow" rocks to form meanders, which means the video YOU posted about how meanders are formed is not suitable. And all your other explaination is obvously wrong for my picture.

You are just speaking nonsense. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

Where did the youtube video say that all meanders of the grand canyon must grow rocks? What are you even talking about?

 

[dcalling]

You are just speaking nonsense. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

Where did the youtube video say that all meanders of the grand canyon must grow rocks? What are you even talking about?

Did you watch your own video? In that it explains meanders grow since unblanced flow erodes (take) and deposits (grow) on different sides and form meanders and can even short.

I simply point out that can't be how meanders in grand canyon formed, do you agree or not?

 

[Job 33:6]

Did you watch your own video? In that it explains meanders grow since unblanced flow erodes (take) and deposits (grow) on different sides and form meanders and can even short.

I simply point out that can't be how meanders in grand canyon formed, do you agree or not?

The video doesnt say that deposits of an incised stream ought to construct point bars, thousands of feet high. Which is what you appear to be asking for.

Yet again, you just don't know what you are talking about. I suppose I'll move on now. Thanks again for the chat.

 

[dcalling]

The video doesnt say that deposits of an incised stream ought to construct point bars, thousands of feet high. Which is what you appear to be asking for.

Yet again, you just don't know what you are talking about. I suppose I'll move on now. Thanks again for the chat.

Nope, construct of bars thousands of feet high is not what I was asking for. You know what I was asking for and you tried to answer that before but failed. What I asked for is, why is the inner bank of the meander made of actual rock layers with the same composition as the outer bank of the meander.

You posted the video explain how meanders are formed, and you posted this picture below as well suggesting that meander must be formed over millions of millions of years, but it is clear that they are formed differently.

 

[Job 33:6]

Nope, construct of bars thousands of feet high is not what I was asking for. You know what I was asking for and you tried to answer that before but failed. What I asked for is, why is the inner bank of the meander made of actual rock layers with the same composition as the outer bank of the meander.

You posted the video explain how meanders are formed, and you posted this picture below as well suggesting that meander must be formed over millions of millions of years, but it is clear that they are formed differently.

I'm sorry that you are unable to understand the topic. I'm not sure that I have the patience to teach you.

The rock pre-dates the 1000+ feet of erosion.

1. sediments are deposited, sediments cement together, rock forms
2. a meander forms from a prehistoric river. Stream deposits from historic rivers are cemented in part, and are visible in the rocks that currently exist (see post #204).
3.the rock is uplifted, then the current river cuts down into those meanders as a product of the uplift.

The reason the banks are made of rock, is because they pre-existed the deep, down cutting erosion of the river. They were rock, before the river cut through them.

The historic banks, deposited prior to the incision of the current river, are in part, solidified in the rock. Thats what we were talking about before, with the lenticular stream deposits. Current stream deposits, are being washed down to the colorado river delta, which we also talked about.


To go back to the original point of bringing this up, these features, could not be formed by a chaotic, massive flood. Floods never make features like this. Not in any stone formation. Flood waters also do not meander like this. High energy waters, that would be needed to destroy rock, as the colorado river has, would not flow as a meandering river through a canyon. High energy waters needed break this rock up, much like the example at the oroville dam, do not meander at all, they break material away and destroy their way through whatever is in their path.

And even in the image above, thats all unconsolidated and loose soils, along with loosely cemented rock that has been eroded away, not even hardened metamorphic rock like that found throughout the grand canyon.


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Either you understand this, or you dont. I cant be bothered to teach you.

Can you see the difference between the image from the oroville dam, and this?

 

[Job 33:6]

Notice how one formation, is of meanders through thousands of feet of solid rock. While the other, just looks like a chaotic linear destructive mess which really predominantly only washed away top soils and saprolites.

One is from a river, a casual every day meandering river, such as the colorado river which is seen within the grand canyon. The other was from the breach of a dam, in which chaotic flood waters overran the land.

Do you see the difference @dcalling ?

 

[dcalling]

First, my point has always been that the meander in the second picture can't be formed by what your video describes, since you can't grow rock (which we both agree). The oroville dam's break does not even look like a meander, does it? Why are you keep trying to blur my question with fast floods when my point is this meander (second image) is not formed by flood?

Second, from what you said "1. sediments are deposited, sediments cement together, rock forms", since the layers of the rocks are all the same, are you arguing that the whole plain is cement sediments? How did all that sediments got there so uniformly? At what time did the "prehistoric river" form the meander? Why this entire plain cemented together to became rock, yet rarely other rivers (no matter how big they are) don't go this deep and most banks does not cement?

I'm sorry that you are unable to understand the topic. I'm not sure that I have the patience to teach you.

The rock pre-dates the 1000+ feet of erosion.

1. sediments are deposited, sediments cement together, rock forms
2. a meander forms from a prehistoric river. Stream deposits from historic rivers are cemented in part, and are visible in the rocks that currently exist (see post #204).
3.the rock is uplifted, then the current river cuts down into those meanders as a product of the uplift.

The reason the banks are made of rock, is because they pre-existed the deep, down cutting erosion of the river. They were rock, before the river cut through them.

The historic banks, deposited prior to the incision of the current river, are in part, solidified in the rock. Thats what we were talking about before, with the lenticular stream deposits. Current stream deposits, are being washed down to the colorado river delta, which we also talked about.


To go back to the original point of bringing this up, these features, could not be formed by a chaotic, massive flood. Floods never make features like this. Not in any stone formation. Flood waters also do not meander like this. High energy waters, that would be needed to destroy rock, as the colorado river has, would not flow as a meandering river through a canyon. High energy waters needed break this rock up, much like the example at the oroville dam, do not meander at all, they break material away and destroy their way through whatever is in their path.

And even in the image above, thats all unconsolidated and loose soils, along with loosely cemented rock that has been eroded away, not even hardened metamorphic rock like that found throughout the grand canyon.


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Either you understand this, or you dont. I cant be bothered to teach you.

Can you see the difference between the image from the oroville dam, and this?

 

[Job 33:6]

Indeed meanders can be formed as the video described, and the meanders of the grand canyon and of the above picture, in part, formed precisely as the video has described.

You seem to be unable to distinguish between the initial formation of meanders and the subsequent uplift and incision.

This idea that you are disproving a YouTube video because rocks can't grow, is meaningless to the discussion. You clearly have no idea of what you're talking about.

You aren't familiar with stratigraphy or sedimentology. You're unfamiliar with structure and depositional processes. You're also unfamiliar with historical concepts and orogenic processes.

Not only do you not have the knowledge necessary to understand, you also have a personality of denial. You ask questions to solve your lack of knowledge, but then you subsequently deny any solution to them due to a further lack of knowledge.

I don't have the patience to teach you. Nor the interest, given your personality .

 

[Job 33:6]

You asked a question of why other rivers do not incise as deep as the Colorado. This has been answered many times now.

If you're interested. Why don't you try to explain the river formation based on information in post #229. Let's see if you understand what is being said to you. Even if you don't agree with it, let's see if you at least understand my responses.

 

[dcalling]

You posted the video, and when I pointed out that your video can't explain how the roky meander in grand canyon form, and when I question your hypthesis of it is cemented sediment rock, instead of posting evidences to back up your claim, you first try to side step discussion with something about "chaotic, massive flood", then simply claim others are not familiar with the subject. Very convenient.

Indeed meanders can be formed as the video described, and the meanders of the grand canyon and of the above picture, in part, formed precisely as the video has described.

You seem to be unable to distinguish between the initial formation of meanders and the subsequent uplift and incision.

This idea that you are disproving a YouTube video because rocks can't grow, is meaningless to the discussion. You clearly have no idea of what you're talking about.

You aren't familiar with stratigraphy or sedimentology. You're unfamiliar with structure and depositional processes. You're also unfamiliar with historical concepts and orogenic processes.

Not only do you not have the knowledge necessary to understand, you also have a personality of denial. You ask questions to solve your lack of knowledge, but then you subsequently deny any solution to them due to a further lack of knowledge.

I don't have the patience to teach you. Nor the interest, given your personality .

 

[Job 33:6]

Ok, I'm going to move on now. Clearly you just don't understand the topic. You aren't even responding to what I said.

 

[Job 33:6]

The video describes how meanders form. We see meanders in the grand canyon that have formed as a product of a meandering river.

The video does not describe uplift and incision of rivers. It was never made to do so.

The grand canyon is a product of both.

Do you understand?

 

[Yonny Costopoulis]

Well, by golly, this evolution is sure impressive. But then again, if you extrapolate anything you are bound to find the evidence you seek. Maybe after millions of years all the dogs will be just different breeds of dogs and not undergo changes wider than that. We wouldn't know from Dawkins who just assumes evolution can produce whatever he demands.

You appear to have completely misunderstood Dawkins. He would never say or indicate that evolution produces whatever he demands. Almost anyone who has read anything he has written knows such an assertion is very mistaken.

Perhaps you should try reading his book again?

 

[jhwatts]

"What lessons do we learn from the domestication of the dog? First, the great variety among the breeds of dogs . . . demonstrates how easily it is for the non-random selection of genes – the ‘carving and whittling’ of gene pools – to produce truly dramatic changes in anatomy and behaviour, [sic] and so fast – the difference between breeds so dramatic – that you might expect their evolution to take millions of years instead of just a matter of centuries. If so much evolutionary change can be achieved in just a few centuries or even decades, just think what might be achieved in ten or a hundred million years"

We can learn the great variety of breeds are the result of the hand of an intelligent being (Human breeders.) and say absolutely nothing about them occurring naturally or without the assistance of a intelligent being. The great variety of breeds are not the result of a process completely independent of an intelligent being but show intelligent intervention is required to produce life and/or a new species or breed. The contrary is not observable.

 

[dcalling]

The video describes how meanders form. We see meanders in the grand canyon that have formed as a product of a meandering river.

The video does not describe uplift and incision of rivers. It was never made to do so.

The grand canyon is a product of both.

Do you understand?

uplift and incision certainly does not explain the image you posted, where it is clearly uniform layered rocks on both sides, meaning something cut through already formed rock layers.

You can't just throw in what you learned in college into something that does not make sense.

Look at image 1 (river terrace possibly formed by uplift and incise) and the image 2. They are definitely not formed in the same way.

At least you finally acknowledged that the second image is not formed by the way your video describes how meanders form.

 

[The Barbarian]

uplift and incision certainly does not explain the image you posted, where it is clearly uniform layered rocks on both sides, meaning something cut through already formed rock layers.

Yep. The river became trapped in its channel, and so eroded deeper and deeper into rock already formed. That's what happens in uplift.

Look at image 1 (river terrace possibly formed by uplift and incise) and the image 2. They are definitely not formed in the same way.

Looks like uplift, although younger; it's not nearly as deep as other cases. If it is uplift, it's likely not the uplift of an ancient river as was the case of the Grand Canyon; meanders are not extreme, as you see in very old rivers.

 

[Job 33:6]

"uplift and incision certainly does not explain the image you posted, where it is clearly uniform layered rocks on both sides, meaning something cut through already formed rock layers."

Yes, it does. Unless you have a giant butter knife, and you cut through the rock layers yourself...then yes, it was the river that did it.