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Richard Dawkins disappoints again

dcalling

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There are also glaciofluvial deposits, u shaped valleys and glacial erratics at the scablands.

The scablands also do not cut through 5000 feet of varying geologic formations as the grand canyon does.

They really don't look similar at all. The below image looks nothing like the grand canyon. @dcalling , you can't just keep pointing at one zoomed in photo to make the case.

View attachment 228777

Also @The Barbarian
The top does not really matter, after many many years of erosion it can get either flat or bumpy. If there is huge amount of water, once they find a weakspot they will more likely to cut through that spot, and cause the most amount of damage there, Don't you agree?

What does matter is the shape and cut of the actual valley, notice how they zigzag the same, how they clean cut the same with no big pieces at bottom, how they layer the same, how most scientists all believe that scablands are formed over millions of years (even decades after the now presumed correct answer is).

You guys does not even a bit find it intriguing?

cabscan.jpg
 
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Job 33:6

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Also @The Barbarian
The top does not really matter, after many many years of erosion it can get either flat or bumpy. If there is huge amount of water, once they find a weakspot they will more likely to cut through that spot, and cause the most amount of damage there, Don't you agree?

What does matter is the shape and cut of the actual valley, notice how they zigzag the same, how they clean cut the same with no big pieces at bottom, how they layer the same, how most scientists all believe that scablands are formed over millions of years (even decades after the now presumed correct answer is).

You guys does not even a bit find it intriguing?

View attachment 229093

Like I've said before. You have to look at the geology of the environment, not just a zoomed in image of topography.
 
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dcalling

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Like I've said before. You have to look at the geology of the environment, not just a zoomed in image of topography.
both have rocky environments, both are cut the same way, even on different rock formations. You are not at least intrigued by it?
 
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Job 33:6

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both have rocky environments, both are cut the same way, even on different rock formations. You are not at least intrigued by it?

Both have Rocky environments? Come on man. You have to be more descriptive than that. Go deeper. Tell me about the formations.

Imagine writing up a research paper to compare and contrast the two environments. If you decided to conclude with "whey are both rocky environments", people would look at you like you had 6 heads, because its almost a meaningless statement, at least as it pertains to geology where everything is rocky.
 
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The Barbarian

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Also @The Barbarian
The top does not really matter, after many many years of erosion it can get either flat or bumpy. If there is huge amount of water, once they find a weakspot they will more likely to cut through that spot, and cause the most amount of damage there, Don't you agree?

It's another reason that we know that the canyons weren't cut by a sudden flood. Take a look:
horseshoe-bends-4.jpg

If a sudden flood had cut those canyons, it would (as you admit) have gone right through those narrow necks. But as you learned earlier, those canyons were not cut by a sudden flood. The scablands around the canyon were cut by a sudden flood, and this is why they look so different than other areas. They were scoured out by a huge amount of water in a very short time. The only effect that flood had on the pre-existing canyon was to round of sharp edges. This is why the canyon in the scablands looks different than the grand canyon.

What does matter is the shape and cut of the actual valley, notice how they zigzag the same,

Because they formed by the same gradual erosion of an uplifted stream. The canyon happened long before the scablands flood and was only slightly modified by it.
 
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dcalling

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Sorry got really busy at work.
This image you posted is very convincing, but I am still not totally convinced. Look how deep the water way is, today not even the deepest river has such deepness. Was there an overwhelming abundant of water in ancient times? Wonder if someone has found where this ancient river starts.

Also just wondering if you noticed. From afar this looks sort of like scablands. Almost like a huge amount of water flushed through, then as it gradually receded, the rest of the water formed the curved river bed over time.

View attachment 230027
It's another reason that we know that the canyons weren't cut by a sudden flood. Take a look:
horseshoe-bends-4.jpg

If a sudden flood had cut those canyons, it would (as you admit) have gone right through those narrow necks. But as you learned earlier, those canyons were not cut by a sudden flood. The scablands around the canyon were cut by a sudden flood, and this is why they look so different than other areas. They were scoured out by a huge amount of water in a very short time. The only effect that flood had on the pre-existing canyon was to round of sharp edges. This is why the canyon in the scablands looks different than the grand canyon.



Because they formed by the same gradual erosion of an uplifted stream. The canyon happened long before the scablands flood and was only slightly modified by it.
 
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The Barbarian

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Sorry got really busy at work.
This image you posted is very convincing, but I am still not totally convinced. Look how deep the water way is, today not even the deepest river has such deepness.

Actually, all rejuvenated rivers are like that. An old river meanders about, the land is uplifted, increasing the speed of the water, and it's then trapped in the streambed, cutting deeper and deeper into the rock.

Also just wondering if you noticed. From afar this looks sort of like scablands.

Except scablands are rounded and scoured out, and these are not.
 
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dcalling

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Actually, all rejuvenated rivers are like that. An old river meanders about, the land is uplifted, increasing the speed of the water, and it's then trapped in the streambed, cutting deeper and deeper into the rock.

That is just another hypothesis. It makes more sense that the ancient river formed most of the river bed and the current river does not cut much at all, given how clean the water bed is, and the shape of the water bed (V, and not a U).

Anyway, I am curious as how you determine what part is cut by current river and what part is formed by ancient river.

Except scablands are rounded and scoured out, and these are not.
It could mean there is a much larger amount of water. Look how similar the landscapes are when you streatch futhre.
 
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The Barbarian

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Barbarian observes:
Actually, all rejuvenated rivers are like that. An old river meanders about, the land is uplifted, increasing the speed of the water, and it's then trapped in the streambed, cutting deeper and deeper into the rock.

That is just another hypothesis.

Nope. We only see rejuvenated rivers when an old river is uplifted. No uplift, no entrenchment. That simple.

It makes more sense that the ancient river formed most of the river bed and the current river does not cut much at all

If that were true, there wouldn't be any sediment being washed down the river. And yet there is abundant sediment, which is demonstrably eroded from the rock.

Anyway, I am curious as how you determine what part is cut by current river and what part is formed by ancient river.

It's all the same river. It was just an ancient river (which meandered as all ancient rivers do) that was uplifted and thereby trapped in its bed as it sped up. Why this happens is no mystery. Should we talk about that for a bit?

It could mean there is a much larger amount of water.

No. Sudden floods can't cut entrenched meanders. As the scablands show, erosion there is much, much different.[/QUOTE]
 
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dcalling

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Barbarian observes:
Actually, all rejuvenated rivers are like that. An old river meanders about, the land is uplifted, increasing the speed of the water, and it's then trapped in the streambed, cutting deeper and deeper into the rock.

Nope. We only see rejuvenated rivers when an old river is uplifted. No uplift, no entrenchment. That simple.

Even if the process really happened, it happens during millions of years, you can't see that, you can only assume that.

If that were true, there wouldn't be any sediment being washed down the river. And yet there is abundant sediment, which is demonstrably eroded from the rock.

How do you know if the sediment are from ancient times or current?

It's all the same river. It was just an ancient river (which meandered as all ancient rivers do) that was uplifted and thereby trapped in its bed as it sped up. Why this happens is no mystery. Should we talk about that for a bit?

sure.

No. Sudden floods can't cut entrenched meanders. As the scablands show, erosion there is much, much different.
Nope they look very similar, the cut, the rock layers, the shape.

From the picture below, tell me, you don't see any similarities?

280422_559e4abe9ca69a45fe4ea8874ddf52f5.jpg
 
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Job 33:6

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Even if the process really happened, it happens during millions of years, you can't see that, you can only assume that.



How do you know if the sediment are from ancient times or current?

You can observe rates of erosion and deposition in the canyon and delta.

The idea that...the canyon was eroded to its current extent, historically, or even before uplift, doesnt make any sense. Because water would not erode deeply into rock that is already submerged within the water table.

The physics of water, just doesnt work this way. Water that comes in contact with the water table, transmits laterally and permeates through rock. It doesnt cut straight down.

Therefore, the erosion must have been post uplift, and therefore of a more recent occurance.
 
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The Barbarian

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Barbarian asks:
It's all the same river. It was just an ancient river (which meandered as all ancient rivers do) that was uplifted and thereby trapped in its bed as it sped up. Why this happens is no mystery. Should we talk about that for a bit?


When a river slows down, there's a difference in speed on the inside of a bend as opposed to the outside of a bend:

bend.png


Consequently, the river meanders. If the land is uplifted, the stream speeds up, cutting deeper into the existing channel, eventually being trapped in that channel.

Rejuvenation+Uplift+of+Land+(Lowering+of+Sea+Level,+sometimes+greater+stream+flow)+causes+stream+to+speed+up+and+cut+deeper..jpg
 
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Job 33:6

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Nope they look very similar, the cut, the rock layers, the shape.

From the picture below, tell me, you don't see any similarities?

280422_559e4abe9ca69a45fe4ea8874ddf52f5.jpg

From a more technical perspective, the two are very different.

This is from wikipedia:
Distinct geomorphological features include coulees, dry falls, streamlined hills and islands of remnant loess, gravel fans and bars, and giant current ripples.[7]

The term scabland refers to an area that has experienced fluvial erosion resulting in the loss of loess and other soils, leaving the land barren.[9] River valleys formed by erosional downcutting of rivers create V-shaped valleys, while glaciers carve out U-shaped valleys. The Channeled Scablands have a rectangular cross section, with flat plateaus and steep canyon sides, and are spread over immense areas of eastern Washington. The morphology of the scablands is butte-and-basin.[9] The area that encompasses the Scablands has been estimated between 1,500 and 2,000 square miles (3,900 and 5,200 km2), though those estimates still may be too conservative.[10]

They exhibit a unique drainage pattern that appears to have an entrance in the northeast and an exit in the southwest. The Cordilleran Ice Sheet dammed up Glacial Lake Missoula at the Purcell Trench Lobe.[10] A series of floods occurring over the period of 18,000 and 13,000 years ago swept over the landscape when the ice dam broke. The eroded channels also show an anastomosing, or braided, appearance.

The presence of Middle and Early Pleistocene Missoula flood deposits have been documented within the Channeled Scabland as other parts of the Columbia Basin, e.g. the Othello Channels, Columbia River Gorge, Quincy Basin, Pasco Basin, and the Walla Walla Valley. Based on the presence of multiple interglacial calcretes interbedded with glaciofluvial flood deposits, magnetostratigraphy, optically stimulated luminescence dating, and unconformity truncated clastic dikes, it has been estimated that the oldest of these megafloods flowed through the Channel Scablands sometime before 1.5 million years ago. Because of the fragmentary nature of older glaciofluvial deposits, which have been largely removed by subsequent Missoula floods, the exact number of older Missoula floods, which are known as Ancient Cataclysmic Floods, that occurred during the Pleistocene cannot be estimated with any confidence.[3][4] As many as 100 separate, cataclysmic Ice Age floods may have occurred during the last glaciation.[11] There have been at least 17 complete interglacial-glacial cycles since about 1.77 million years ago, and perhaps as many as 44 interglacial-glacial cycles since the beginning of the Pleistocene about 2.58 million years ago. Presuming a dozen (or more) floods were associated with each glaciation, the total number of cataclysmic Ice Age Missoula floods that flowed through the Channeled Scablands for the entire Pleistocene Epoch could possibly number in the hundreds, perhaps exceeding a thousand Ancient Cataclysmic Floods.[5]

There are also immense potholes and ripple marks, much larger than those found on ordinary rivers. When these features were first studied, no known theories could explain their origin. The giant current ripples are between 3.3 and 49.2 feet (1 and 15 m) high and are regularly spaced, relatively uniform hills.[9] Vast volumes of flowing water would be required to produce ripple marks of this magnitude, as they are larger-scale versions of the ripple marks found on streambeds that are typically only centimeters high. Large potholes were formed by swirling vortexes of water called kolks scouring and plucking out the bedrock.[10]

The Scablands are littered with large boulders called glacial erratics that rafted on glaciers and were deposited by the glacial outburst flooding. The lithology of erratics usually does not match the rock type that surrounds it, as they are often carried very far from their origin.[10]

------------------------------------------------------
If you read the above, you will see a lot of jargon about glacial features, erratics, drop stones, gravel fans and bars, ripples, braided channels witha rectangular cross section etc.

These are specific qualities condensed into superpositionally shallow strata.

Whereas with the grand canyon, you have a vast array of varying rock types and formations and unconformities and biostratigraphic features etc. For example, you will find countless cyclothems throughout the grand canyon. You will find trans and regressive features, rocks of sand, silt, clay, various forms of carbonaceous rocks, varying types of minerals and metamophic features. Unique structural compressional features etc.

You can find many many things in the grand canyon that you couldnt find in the scab lands, and vise versa.

So, you can say all you want that they look the same, but to anyone who is actually knowledgeable of what is out there, it is quite clear that they are very different.
 
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dcalling

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Except it is definitely possible, the idea is that the ancient river curved into soil and meandered, and dryed or became small (i.e. a huge flood comes, leave the huge meander, then after that went away smaller river stayed). Then after a very long time the soil condensed into rock, formed into the current formation.


You can observe rates of erosion and deposition in the canyon and delta.

The idea that...the canyon was eroded to its current extent, historically, or even before uplift, doesnt make any sense. Because water would not erode deeply into rock that is already submerged within the water table.

The physics of water, just doesnt work this way. Water that comes in contact with the water table, transmits laterally and permeates through rock. It doesnt cut straight down.

Therefore, the erosion must have been post uplift, and therefore of a more recent occurance.
Barbarian asks:
It's all the same river. It was just an ancient river (which meandered as all ancient rivers do) that was uplifted and thereby trapped in its bed as it sped up. Why this happens is no mystery. Should we talk about that for a bit?



When a river slows down, there's a difference in speed on the inside of a bend as opposed to the outside of a bend:

bend.png


Consequently, the river meanders. If the land is uplifted, the stream speeds up, cutting deeper into the existing channel, eventually being trapped in that channel.

Rejuvenation+Uplift+of+Land+(Lowering+of+Sea+Level,+sometimes+greater+stream+flow)+causes+stream+to+speed+up+and+cut+deeper..jpg
 
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dcalling

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Let's take a look at the images. Are those V shaped or U shaped? The canyan might look more V but it is due to the bottom later been eroded , just like how the one on the right where some not so soid rock eroded down and formed a slope. The side of the clif on bot sides where they are solid rocks are obviousely 90 degree :)

280422_559e4abe9ca69a45fe4ea8874ddf52f5.jpg


From a more technical perspective, the two are very different.

This is from wikipedia:
Distinct geomorphological features include coulees, dry falls, streamlined hills and islands of remnant loess, gravel fans and bars, and giant current ripples.[7]

The term scabland refers to an area that has experienced fluvial erosion resulting in the loss of loess and other soils, leaving the land barren.[9] River valleys formed by erosional downcutting of rivers create V-shaped valleys, while glaciers carve out U-shaped valleys. The Channeled Scablands have a rectangular cross section, with flat plateaus and steep canyon sides, and are spread over immense areas of eastern Washington. The morphology of the scablands is butte-and-basin.[9] The area that encompasses the Scablands has been estimated between 1,500 and 2,000 square miles (3,900 and 5,200 km2), though those estimates still may be too conservative.[10]

They exhibit a unique drainage pattern that appears to have an entrance in the northeast and an exit in the southwest. The Cordilleran Ice Sheet dammed up Glacial Lake Missoula at the Purcell Trench Lobe.[10] A series of floods occurring over the period of 18,000 and 13,000 years ago swept over the landscape when the ice dam broke. The eroded channels also show an anastomosing, or braided, appearance.

The presence of Middle and Early Pleistocene Missoula flood deposits have been documented within the Channeled Scabland as other parts of the Columbia Basin, e.g. the Othello Channels, Columbia River Gorge, Quincy Basin, Pasco Basin, and the Walla Walla Valley. Based on the presence of multiple interglacial calcretes interbedded with glaciofluvial flood deposits, magnetostratigraphy, optically stimulated luminescence dating, and unconformity truncated clastic dikes, it has been estimated that the oldest of these megafloods flowed through the Channel Scablands sometime before 1.5 million years ago. Because of the fragmentary nature of older glaciofluvial deposits, which have been largely removed by subsequent Missoula floods, the exact number of older Missoula floods, which are known as Ancient Cataclysmic Floods, that occurred during the Pleistocene cannot be estimated with any confidence.[3][4] As many as 100 separate, cataclysmic Ice Age floods may have occurred during the last glaciation.[11] There have been at least 17 complete interglacial-glacial cycles since about 1.77 million years ago, and perhaps as many as 44 interglacial-glacial cycles since the beginning of the Pleistocene about 2.58 million years ago. Presuming a dozen (or more) floods were associated with each glaciation, the total number of cataclysmic Ice Age Missoula floods that flowed through the Channeled Scablands for the entire Pleistocene Epoch could possibly number in the hundreds, perhaps exceeding a thousand Ancient Cataclysmic Floods.[5]

There are also immense potholes and ripple marks, much larger than those found on ordinary rivers. When these features were first studied, no known theories could explain their origin. The giant current ripples are between 3.3 and 49.2 feet (1 and 15 m) high and are regularly spaced, relatively uniform hills.[9] Vast volumes of flowing water would be required to produce ripple marks of this magnitude, as they are larger-scale versions of the ripple marks found on streambeds that are typically only centimeters high. Large potholes were formed by swirling vortexes of water called kolks scouring and plucking out the bedrock.[10]

The Scablands are littered with large boulders called glacial erratics that rafted on glaciers and were deposited by the glacial outburst flooding. The lithology of erratics usually does not match the rock type that surrounds it, as they are often carried very far from their origin.[10]

------------------------------------------------------
If you read the above, you will see a lot of jargon about glacial features, erratics, drop stones, gravel fans and bars, ripples, braided channels witha rectangular cross section etc.

These are specific qualities condensed into superpositionally shallow strata.

Whereas with the grand canyon, you have a vast array of varying rock types and formations and unconformities and biostratigraphic features etc. For example, you will find countless cyclothems throughout the grand canyon. You will find trans and regressive features, rocks of sand, silt, clay, various forms of carbonaceous rocks, varying types of minerals and metamophic features. Unique structural compressional features etc.

You can find many many things in the grand canyon that you couldnt find in the scab lands, and vise versa.

So, you can say all you want that they look the same, but to anyone who is actually knowledgeable of what is out there, it is quite clear that they are very different.
 
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Job 33:6

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@dcalling

You can't have erosion of soft sediment if the rock is solidified before the presence of the river.

There are features in the rock, superpositionally below the river, such as propogating faults, erosional disconformities, thrust faults, extensional faults, angular unconformities, etx. that indicate that the rock was solidified prior to the onset of erosion through it, down to proterozoic layers.

Honestly , you speak saying things like "x is definitely possible", but this just shows that you lack an understanding of geologic features of the subsurface, and perhaps basic physics as well.
 
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dcalling

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@dcalling

You can't have erosion of soft sediment if the rock is solidified before the presence of the river.

There are features in the rock, superpositionally below the river, such as propogating faults, erosional disconformities, thrust faults, extensional faults, angular unconformities, etx. that indicate that the rock was solidified prior to the onset of erosion through it, down to proterozoic layers.

Honestly , you speak saying things like "x is definitely possible", but this just shows that you lack an understanding of geologic features of the subsurface, and perhaps basic physics as well.


Hmmm I just realized it might meant none of those layers are as old as they claim to be!!

The huge meanders can only mean there are huge amount of water at some point of history, on soil. The water cutting through rock is very unlikely, since meander on soil moves rather quickly, sometimes they change in months. The water on top will much likely change course on top of soil long before they can cut into rock. Don't you agree?
 
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The Barbarian

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Hmmm I just realized it might meant none of those layers are as old as they claim to be!!

The huge meanders can only mean there are huge amount of water at some point of history, on soil.

No, not possible. Those walls are sometimes almost a kilometer high. No way to have a vertical wall of soil that high. As you see from Mt. St. Helens, such walls collapse after just a few meters of depth.

The water on top will much likely change course on top of soil long before they can cut into rock.

They would, if the stream was not uplifted. When that happens, the stream speeds up and cuts downward. This is why young rivers are relatively straight and don't meander. They just cut deeper into the channel.
 
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dcalling

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No, not possible. Those walls are sometimes almost a kilometer high. No way to have a vertical wall of soil that high. As you see from Mt. St. Helens, such walls collapse after just a few meters of depth.

That is a good observation. Looking at the images again, they are definitely both U shaped and there for should be formed by glaciers (i.e. glacier rush down exisiting river banks)

280422_559e4abe9ca69a45fe4ea8874ddf52f5.jpg
 
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