Rich-man and Lazarus True story or Parable

[Thekla]

If you are referring to the Fifth Seal, KIM that the four horsemen which precede it are symbolic. Reasonably, what is depicted under the Fifth Seal could also be symbolic. And that would be consistent with the imagery, which comes from the OT sacrificial system. When a sacrifice was made, blood from the sacrifice was dashed on the side of the altar as a witness, and ran down under the altar. God said, "the life of all flesh is the blood." The shed blood of the martyrs bore witness, and is personified by God. He said to Cain in Gen. 4, "Thy brother's blood crieth to me from the ground!"



I believe that in the parable, Abraham says that Lazarus has his reward and the rich man is being punished. Another detail pointing to the parabolic nature of the story. Quite a number of the details contradict the rest of Scripture.

Dave

"Today you will be with me in paradise."

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

"Today you will be with me in paradise."

Seems one of the Mss leaves out the word "Jesus" in that verse. Interesting. [I will let others put the punctuation mark in LOL]

[Any thoughts on my earliers posts concerning the word "abyss"? Thanks.]

Luke 23:43 And said to him the Jesus "Amen I am saying to thee today with Me thou shall be in the Paradise".

http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm

TexRec) Luke 23:43 kai eipen autw o ihsouV amhn legw soi shmeron met emou esh en tw paradeisw

ByzMaj) Luke 23:43 kai eipen autw o ihsouV amhn legw soi shmeron met emou esh en tw paradeisw

W-H) Luke 23:43 kai eipen autw * ***** amhn soi legw shmeron met emou esh en tw paradeisw


NASB) Luke 23:43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

NKJV) Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."

3857. paradeisos par-ad'-i-sos of Oriental origin (compare 6508); a park, i.e. (specially), an Eden (place of future happiness, "paradise"):--paradise.

 

[archierieus]

"Today you will be with me in paradise."

'Truly to you I say today, With Me you will be in paradise.' (Gr.)

The fact is that Christ did not go to Paradise until after His resurrection. He said to Mary, "I have not yet ascended to My Father." After that He did, and came back later that day.

Compare Jesus' words to Peter:

'Truly to you I say THAT you today will betray Me.

The 'hoti' makes a big difference.

Dave

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Can we just keep this on the topic of the parable? Btw, I put up my final translation of Revelation Chapt 1 if others can give their view on it. Thanks.

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7167075&page=3
Revelation Chapter 1 Verses

 

[Thekla]

'Truly to you I say today, With Me you will be in paradise.' (Gr.)

The fact is that Christ did not go to Paradise until after His resurrection. He said to Mary, "I have not yet ascended to My Father." After that He did, and came back later that day.

Compare Jesus' words to Peter:

'Truly to you I say THAT today you will betray Me.

The 'hoti' makes a big difference.

Dave

Both Paul (Ephesians) and Peter attest that Christ descended (Sheol/Hades/hellen - to hide, hence Hell). It seems the present use of the English word Hell has a broader application than the Greek and perhaps the Hebrew.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

This form of the greek word to "clothe" is used only in this one verse of the NT. Is seems to be a combination of 3 greek words "en" "didu" and "sketo".

What I found interesting was Paul used a variation of this word in 2 Timothy 3 concerning "slipping in". Just saw this today so will have to study on this more.

Luke 16:19 A-Man, yet any, was Rich and in-slipped/enedidusketo <1737> (5710) purple and fine-linen making-merry down to a-day, splendidly.

1737. endidusko en-did-oos'-ko a prolonged form of 1746; to invest (with a garment):--clothe in, wear.

Textus Rec.) Luke 16:19 anqrwpoV de tiV hn plousioV kai enedidusketo porfuran kai busson eufrainomenoV kaq hmeran lamprwV

2 Timothy 3:6 For out of these are ones in-slipping/endunonteV <1744> into the homes and leading into captivity little-women having been heaped to sins being led to various lusts

1744. enduno en-doo'-no from 1772 and 1416; to sink (by implication, wrap (compare 1746) on, i.e. (figuratively) sneak:--creep.

1746. enduo en-doo'-o from 1722 and 1416 (in the sense of sinking into a garment); to invest with clothing (literally or figuratively):--array, clothe (with), endue, have (put) on.
1722. en en a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively),
1417. duo doo'-o a primary numeral; "two":--both, twain, two.
1416. duno doo'-no or dumi doo'-mee prolonged forms of an obsolete primary duo doo'-o (to sink) to go "down":--set.

 

[archierieus]

Both Paul (Ephesians) and Peter attest that Christ descended (Sheol/Hades/hellen - to hide, hence Hell). It seems the present use of the English word Hell has a broader application than the Greek and perhaps the Hebrew.

Gerhard Kittel has an excellent article in his TDNT on psukh, which deals with this issue. 'Hades' is a reference to the 'grave.' 'Sheol' is a reference to the grave. Kittel points out that Paul uses the Greek words, but with the Old Testament (Scriptural) meaning--which, as the article notes, has caused some confusion! Indeed, Jesus did descend to the grave, but rose the third day! Note also, Thekla, that I corrected my transliteration of the betrayal verse.' It should read, 'Truly to you I say that you today will deny me thrice. The presence of hoti and the placement of the su are both significant in contrast with the 'paradise' verse.

Dave

Dave

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

This greek word is also similar to that of the man at the wedding banquet not not be clothed. This is one reason I can view the rich-man as both a type of High-Priest and King just as Jesus was.
I would sumize that the Kind is syombolizing Jesus. Thoughts?


Luke 16:19 A-Man, yet any, was Rich and in-slipped/en-edidu-sketo <1737> (5710) purple and fine-linen making-merry down to a-day, splendidly.

Matthew 22:11 And into coming yet the King, to gaze of the ones the reclining, he saw there a Man not in-slipped/en-dedu-menon <1746> (5765) cothing/enduma <1742> of wedding-feast:

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Luke 15:1 Were yet to Him nearing the tribute collectors and the sinners to be hearing of Him.
2 And murmured both the Pharisees and Scribes saying "that this-one sinners is receiving and eating together to them
3 He said yet toward them the parable this saying

Textus Rec.) Luke 15:3 eipen de proV autouV thn parabolhn tauthn legwn

4 "What man of you, having a hundred sheep,
8 " Or what woman, having ten silver coins, if she loses one coin,
11 Then He said: "A certain man had two sons.
16:1 He also said to His disciples: "There was a certain rich man who had a steward,
14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him.
19 " There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day.

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/abraham/abrahams_bosom.htm

There are five stories which follow consecutively. It is well known, of course, that chapters and verses were not in the original scriptures. We are at liberty to change them when they do not synchronize with other scripture. Any arrangement of chapter and verse division that clarifies or harmonizes other scripture, is more authoritative than that division that beclouds other statements of the Bible. At the beginning of Jesus' discourse in chapter fifteen of Luke the statement is made that "He spoke this parable unto them, saying," (Lk. 15:3).

The Greek is very definite in making the word for parable clearly a singular noun. It is "the parable this.." This statement is followed by five separate stories, the first of which is the story of the lost sheep, and the last is the story of the rich man and Lazarus. You see, the teaching in chapter sixteen is but the continuation of the discourse in chapter fifteen, without interruption. Now, which of the five stories He gave them in this sermon was called a parable? The only one of the five which is prefaced by the claim, "And He spoke this parable unto them," was the story about the lost sheep. Was the lost sheep the only one that could be called a parable? And yet, any preacher or believer that I know will answer that the story of the lost coin, as well as the prodigal son, were also parables.

Then why was the singular used - "this parable"? It should be clear to any thinking mind that all these stories were ONE PARABLE, like the facets of a diamond, as they turn each scintillates with new brilliance. Each was illustrating a view point of one great truth, and together they compose a whole. And this parabolic discourse of Jesus is continued into chapter sixteen of Luke, including the story of the rich man and Lazarus. The truth is that all five stories are each a fractional part of the complete parable, and when we read, "He spoke this parable unto them," this embraces the entire collection of symbol-pictures which in their completeness constituted the parable which He spoke. It is a careless assumption and an unfounded assertion to argue that the story of the rich man and Lazarus is not a parable!

 

[Evergreen48]

. . . . . It is a careless assumption and an unfounded assertion to argue that the story of the rich man and Lazarus is not a parable!

It is neither parable or truth. (IMHO)

There is no such place as Hades. That is Greek mythology. Luke 16:19-31 (The rich man and Lazarus story) was most likely inserted into the book of Luke by one of the early church fathers, or was on the order of what is called marginal gloss on manuscripts which were copied in that era. This discourse is introduced abruptly after verses 16, 17 and 18, and these verses present a noticeable interruption in the flow of Jesus' discourse before them. It is not connected to the parables which were presented before it, and neither is it connected to the preceding verses 16, 17 and 18. Neither is it ever directly said that the Savior did use this as a parable or otherwise.

The following excerpt was originally believed to be from the writings of Flavius Josephus, the Jewish Historian who wrote in the 1st century. It was titled as Josephus' Discourse To The Greeks Concerning Hades. But it is fairly certain now that this is error, and that it is the work of Hippolytus of Rome (c. 170-c. 236) who:

" was one of the most prolific writers of the early Church. Hippolytus was born during the second half of the 2nd century, probably in Rome. Photius describes him in his Bibliotheca (cod. 121) as a disciple of Irenaeus, who was said to be a disciple of Polycarp, and from the context of this passage it is supposed that he suggested that Hippolytus himself so styled himself" - Wikipedia -

In either case the author lacked any scriptural foundation for most of this writing, but instead seems to rely on Greek mythology for his source. And no one will ever be able to convince this one that Jesus would ever be so inconsistent in his teachings that He would use a pagan myth in order to teach the people, as all the rest of His parables are based on things that could and did actually occur.


"1. NOW as to Hades, wherein the souls of the of the good things they see, and rejoice in the righteous and unrighteous are detained, it is necessary to speak of it. Hades is a place in the world not regularly finished; a subterraneous region, wherein the light of this world does not shine; from which circumstance, that in this region the light does not shine, it cannot be but there must be in it perpetual darkness. This region is allotted as a place of custody for souls, ill which angels are appointed as guardians to them, who distribute to them temporary punishments, agreeable to every one's behavior and manners.

2. In this region there is a certain place set apart, as a lake of unquenchable fire, whereinto we suppose no one hath hitherto been cast; but it is prepared for a day afore-determined by God, in which one righteous sentence shall deservedly be passed upon all men; when the unjust, and those that have been disobedient to God, and have given honor to such idols as have been the vain operations of the hands of men as to God himself, shall be adjudged to this everlasting punishment, as having been the causes of defilement; while the just shall obtain an incorruptible and never-fading kingdom. These are now indeed confined in Hades, but not in the same place wherein the unjust are confined.

3. For there is one descent into this region, at whose gate we believe there stands an archangel with an host; which gate when those pass through that are conducted down by the angels appointed over souls, they do not go the same way; but the just are guided to the right hand, and are led with hymns, sung by the angels appointed over that place, unto a region of light, in which the just have dwelt from the beginning of the world; not constrained by necessity, but ever enjoying the prospect of the good things they see, and rejoic in the expectation of those new enjoyments which will be peculiar to every one of them, and esteeming those things beyond what we have here; with whom there is no place of toil, no burning heat, no piercing cold, nor are any briers there; but the countenance of the and of the just, which they see, always smiles them, while they wait for that rest and eternal new life in heaven, which is to succeed this region. This place we call The Bosom of Abraham.

4. But as to the unjust, they are dragged by force to the left hand by the angels allotted for punishment, no longer going with a good-will, but as prisoners driven by violence; to whom are sent the angels appointed over them to reproach them and threaten them with their terrible looks, and to thrust them still downwards. Now those angels that are set over these souls drag them into the neighborhood of hell itself; who, when they are hard by it, continually hear the noise of it, and do not stand clear of the hot vapor itself; but when they have a near view of this spectacle, as of a terrible and exceeding great prospect of fire, they are struck with a fearful expectation of a future judgment, and in effect punished thereby: and not only so, but where they see the place [or choir] of the fathers and of the just, even hereby are they punished; for a chaos deep and large is fixed between them; insomuch that a just man that hath compassion upon them cannot be admitted, nor can one that is unjust, if he were bold enough to attempt it, pass over it.

5. This is the discourse concerning Hades, wherein the souls of all men are confined until a proper season, which God hath determined, when he will make a resurrection of all men from the dead, not procuring a transmigration of souls from one body to another, but raising again those very bodies, which you Greeks, seeing to be dissolved, do not believe [their resurrection]. But learn not to disbelieve it; for while you believe that the soul is created, and yet is made immortal by God, according to the doctrine of Plato, and this in time, be not incredulous; but believe that God is able, when he hath raised to life that body which was made as a compound of the same elements, to make it immortal; for it must never be said of God, that he is able to do some things, and unable to do others. We have therefore believed that the body will be raised again; for although it be dissolved, it is not perished; for the earth receives its remains, and preserves them; and while they are like seed, and are mixed among the more fruitful soil, they flourish, and what is sown is indeed sown bare grain, but at the mighty sound of God the Creator, it will sprout up, and be raised in a clothed and glorious condition, though not before it has been dissolved, and mixed [with the earth]. So that we have not rashly believed the resurrection of the body; for although it be dissolved for a time on account of the original transgression, it exists still, and is cast into the earth as into a potter's furnace, in order to be formed again, not in order to rise again such as it was before, but in a state of purity, and so as never to he destroyed any more. And to every body shall its own soul be restored. And when it hath clothed itself with that body, it will not be subject to misery, but, being itself pure, it will continue with its pure body, and rejoice with it, with which it having walked righteously now in this world, and never having had it as a snare, it will receive it again with great gladness. But as for the unjust, they will receive their bodies not changed, not freed from diseases or distempers, nor made glorious, but with the same diseases wherein they died; and such as they were in their unbelief, the same shall they be when they shall be faithfully judged.

6. For all men, the just as well as the unjust, shall be brought before God the word: for to him hath the Father committed all judgment : and he, in order to fulfill the will of his Father, shall come as Judge, whom we call Christ. For Minos and Rhadamanthus are not the judges, as you Greeks do suppose, but he whom God and the Father hath glorified: CONCERNING WHOM WE HAVE ELSEWHERE GIVEN A MORE PARTICULAR ACCOUNT, FOR THE SAKE OF THOSE WHO SEEK AFTER TRUTH. This person, exercising the righteous judgment of the Father towards all men, hath prepared a just sentence for every one, according to his works; at whose judgment-seat when all men, and angels, and demons shall stand, they will send forth one voice, and say, JUST IS THY JUDGMENT; the rejoinder to which will bring a just sentence upon both parties, by giving justly to those that have done well an everlasting fruition; but allotting to the lovers of wicked works eternal punishment. To these belong the unquenchable fire, and that without end, and a certain fiery worm, never dying, and not destroying the body, but continuing its eruption out of the body with never-ceasing grief: neither will sleep give ease to these men, nor will the night afford them comfort; death will not free them from their punishment, nor will the interceding prayers of their kindred profit them; for the just are no longer seen by them, nor are they thought worthy of remembrance. But the just shall remember only their righteous actions, whereby they have attained the heavenly kingdom, in which there is no sleep, no sorrow, no corruption, no care, no night, no day measured by time, no sun driven in his course along the circle of heaven by necessity, and measuring out the bounds and conversions of the seasons, for the better illumination of the life of men; no moon decreasing and increasing, or introducing a variety of seasons, nor will she then moisten the earth; no burning sun, no Bear turning round [the pole], no Orion to rise, no wandering of innumerable stars. The earth will not then be difficult to be passed over, nor will it he hard to find out the court of paradise, nor will there be any fearful roaring of the sea, forbidding the passengers to walk on it; even that will be made easily passable to the just, though it will not be void of moisture. Heaven will not then be uninhabitable by men, and it will not be impossible to discover the way of ascending thither. The earth will not be uncultivated, nor require too much labor of men, but will bring forth its fruits of its own accord, and will be well adorned with them. There will be no more generations of wild beasts, nor will the substance of the rest of the animals shoot out any more; for it will not produce men, but the number of the righteous will continue, and never fail, together with righteous angels, and spirits [of God], and with his word, as a choir of righteous men and women that never grow old, and continue in an incorruptible state, singing hymns to God, who hath advanced them to that happiness, by the means of a regular institution of life; with whom the whole creation also will lift up a perpetual hymn from corruption, to incorruption, as glorified by a splendid and pure spirit. It will not then be restrained by a bond of necessity, but with a lively freedom shall offer up a voluntary hymn, and shall praise him that made them, together with the angels, and spirits, and men now freed from all bondage.

7. And now, if you Gentiles will be persuaded by these motives, and leave your vain imaginations about your pedigrees, and gaining of riches, and philosophy, and will not spend your time about subtleties of words, and thereby lead your minds into error, and if you will apply your ears to the hearing of the inspired prophets, the interpreters both of God and of his word, and will believe in God, you shall both be partakers of these things, and obtain the good things that are to come; you shall see the ascent unto the immense heaven plainly, and that kingdom which is there. For what God hath now concealed in silence [will be then made manifest,] what neither eye hath seen, nor ear hath heard, nor hath it entered into the heart of man, the things that God hath prepared for them that love him. . . . . . . "

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

It is neither parable or truth. (IMHO)

Not sure I know what you are implying. Are you saying this parable is not Inspired? Thks for your input

I believe the rich-man and those in vs 26 are representing a type of the OC corrupt Priesthood JESUS and Paul railed against. IMHO of course

Matthew 3:9 "And no ye should be thinking to say in yourselves 'a father we are having, the Abraham'. For I am say unto ye, that is able the God out of the stones, these, to raise-up children/offsprings to the Abraham.

Luke 16:26 And upon all of these between us and ye a chasm great hath been established so that those willing to cross-over hence toward ye no may be able, neither thence toward us may be ferrying

 

[Evergreen48]

Not sure I know what you are implying. Are you saying this parable is not Inspired? Thks for your input

I believe the rich-man and those in vs 26 are representing a type of the OC corrupt Priesthood JESUS and Paul railed against. IMHO of course

Matthew 3:9 "And no ye should be thinking to say in yourselves 'a father we are having, the Abraham'. For I am say unto ye, that is able the God out of the stones, these, to raise-up children/offsprings to the Abraham.

Luke 16:26 And upon all of these between us and ye a chasm great hath been established so that those willing to cross-over hence toward ye no may be able, neither thence toward us may be ferrying

I'm not sure what you mean by 'inspired ', as I do not believe one must be particularly inspired from God to write down a record of what they have seen or heard concerning a person, or events surrounding that person. But I am telling you that I do NOT believe the 'Rich man and Lazarus' story came from the mouth of our Savior. The idea that anyone who has died; be they judged by man or God as either being righteous or unrighteous, would be found ANYWHERE in a conscious state, prior to our Lord's resurrection is soundly defeated by the Old Testament writings by persons who I have no legitimate reason to doubt were divinely inspired. Hades is a nonexistent place conjured up by the vain imaginations of pagan 'philosophers' who did not believe in the true and the living God. And that our Lord would be so inconsistent in His teachings as to further this non scriptural, unfounded, false notion by using it in one of His parables, takes away from His divine authority and truthfulness.

 

[nhisname]

Greetings. How do others view that story Jesus told to the Jews in Luke 16 concerning the rich-man and lazarus. A parable or true story? This is one of the largest studies I have of the NT/NC.

I myself humbly view it as a "Covenantle" parable, but would like to here views from other fellow Christians of it. Thanks.......

Matthew 3:9 "And no ye should be thinking to say in yourselves 'a Father we are having, the Abraham'. For I am saying unto ye, that is able the God out of the Stones, these, to raise-up offsprings/children to the Abraham. [Luke 3:8/16:24]

Luke 16:24 And he sounding said: "Father Abraham! be thou merciful to-me! and send Lazarus!, that he should be dipping the tip of the finger of him of water, and should be cooling down the tongue of me,--that I am being pained in the Flame,this."

Since Jesus called the beggar by name I think this actually happened....also the rich man knew the beggar by name. Why would Jesus have made the point in using his name (Lazarus) twice. If he was just making a point why didn't he just say the rich man and the beggar?

 

[GuardianShua]

Not sure I know what you are implying. Are you saying this parable is not Inspired? Thks for your input

I believe the rich-man and those in vs 26 are representing a type of the OC corrupt Priesthood JESUS and Paul railed against. IMHO of course

Matthew 3:9 "And no ye should be thinking to say in yourselves 'a father we are having, the Abraham'. For I am say unto ye, that is able the God out of the stones, these, to raise-up children/offsprings to the Abraham.

Luke 16:26 And upon all of these between us and ye a chasm great hath been established so that those willing to cross-over hence toward ye no may be able, neither thence toward us may be ferrying

I give thanks to you Heavenly Father for hearing my complaint.​

The Rich Man and Lazarus
Luke 16:19. "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

Wealth, comfort, poverty, and suffering has nothing to do with a person’s salvation.

22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

The word messenger is replaced with the word angel. And assuming that this is a parable, there would be no need for Lazarus to be carried to Abraham, before the resurrection. As for being in Hell and torment and agony; that contradicts the verse that says the dead know nothing. It also is a contradiction where scripture says that Yahwah kills the condemned. In regards to the water on the finger; that would evaporate before it even got to a person.

25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

Again I say to you that wealth and poverty has nothing to do with the resurrection of the righteous. There is one truth in all of this, and that there is a chasm that has been set in place; and that is called death of the condemned, which are killed by Yahwah. There is no life for them afterward.

27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'

30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

These are obviously the words of a dim wit, and not the words of an ancient being. No place in these verses is credit given to Yahwah, but only to Moses and the prophets; which would be unlike Yahshua to exclude Him in matters of life and death.

Hell is a pagan belief and part of the Pagan religion. Why would Yahshua use a nonexistent biblical teaching for which he never explains afterward? Before the return from Babylon, Judaism never taught the concept of hell. But after the return from Babylon, the Hellenistic and Kabalistic Jews began to introduce Hell into Judaism.

Yahshua never identified the story as a parable, and never explained the relevance as he did in other legitimate parables.
Yahshua, being an ancient being full of knowledge and wisdom, would have had the good since to explain the new concept. Obviously the story of “The Rich Man and Lazarus” is the words of some man introducing the Pagan concept of Hell.

Genesis 18:25
Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?"

Luke 20:16
"What then will the owner of the vineyard do to them? He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others." When the people heard this, they said, "May this never be!"

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.

Revelation 20:14
Then death and Hades (Gehennah) were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

Revelation 21
1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."
5 He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."
6 He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This (That) is the second death."
Just a reminder that it was the Catholic Church that canonized scripture.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Just a reminder that it was the Catholic Church that canonized scripture.

SO?

 

[GuardianShua]

SO?

Do you want me to take another bite out of your bunny?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Do you want me to take another bite out of your bunny?

This thread is on the parable of the Rich-man/Lazarus, not on the RCC canonizing the Scriptures. They have their view of the Bible and I have mine and you have yours

This person is pretty much dead on with his interpretation of this parable and I recommend just reading thru it. I also have it translated from the Greek.

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/a...hams_bosom.htm

There are five stories which follow consecutively. It is well known, of course, that chapters and verses were not in the original scriptures. We are at liberty to change them when they do not synchronize with other scripture. Any arrangement of chapter and verse division that clarifies or harmonizes other scripture, is more authoritative than that division that beclouds other statements of the Bible. At the beginning of Jesus' discourse in chapter fifteen of Luke the statement is made that "He spoke this parable unto them, saying," (Lk. 15:3).

The Greek is very definite in making the word for parable clearly a singular noun. It is "the parable this.." This statement is followed by five separate stories, the first of which is the story of the lost sheep, and the last is the story of the rich man and Lazarus. You see, the teaching in chapter sixteen is but the continuation of the discourse in chapter fifteen, without interruption. Now, which of the five stories He gave them in this sermon was called a parable? The only one of the five which is prefaced by the claim, "And He spoke this parable unto them," was the story about the lost sheep. Was the lost sheep the only one that could be called a parable? And yet, any preacher or believer that I know will answer that the story of the lost coin, as well as the prodigal son, were also parables.

Then why was the singular used - "this parable"? It should be clear to any thinking mind that all these stories were ONE PARABLE, like the facets of a diamond, as they turn each scintillates with new brilliance. Each was illustrating a view point of one great truth, and together they compose a whole. And this parabolic discourse of Jesus is continued into chapter sixteen of Luke, including the story of the rich man and Lazarus. The truth is that all five stories are each a fractional part of the complete parable, and when we read, "He spoke this parable unto them," this embraces the entire collection of symbol-pictures which in their completeness constituted the parable which He spoke. It is a careless assumption and an unfounded assertion to argue that the story of the rich man and Lazarus is not a parable!

 

[ezek33]

The story of the rich man and Lazarus was a true story Jesus told to convey a very important message. That message was even though He will rise from the dead many will still not believe He was the Christ, or that Hell is a literal place, and even if you do believe He is Christ it seems there are many in this very thread that still do not believe the words of Christ that hell is real.

 

[GuardianShua]

I give thanks to you Heavenly Father for hearing my complaint.​

The Rich Man and Lazarus
Luke 16:19. "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

Wealth, comfort, poverty, and suffering has nothing to do with a person’s salvation.

22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

The word messenger is replaced with the word angel. And assuming that this is a parable, there would be no need for Lazarus to be carried to Abraham, before the resurrection. As for being in Hell and torment and agony; that contradicts the verse that says the dead know nothing. It also is a contradiction where scripture says that Yahwah kills the condemned. In regards to the water on the finger; that would evaporate before it even got to a person.

25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

Again I say to you that wealth and poverty has nothing to do with the resurrection of the righteous. There is one truth in all of this, and that there is a chasm that has been set in place; and that is called death of the condemned, which are killed by Yahwah. There is no life for them afterward.

27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'

30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

These are obviously the words of a dim wit, and not the words of an ancient being. No place in these verses is credit given to Yahwah, but only to Moses and the prophets; which would be unlike Yahshua to exclude Him in matters of life and death.

Hell is a pagan belief and part of the Pagan religion. Why would Yahshua use a nonexistent biblical teaching for which he never explains afterward? Before the return from Babylon, Judaism never taught the concept of hell. But after the return from Babylon, the Hellenistic and Kabalistic Jews began to introduce Hell into Judaism.

Yahshua never identified the story as a parable, and never explained the relevance as he did in other legitimate parables.
Yahshua, being an ancient being full of knowledge and wisdom, would have had the good since to explain the new concept. Obviously the story of “The Rich Man and Lazarus” is the words of some man introducing the Pagan concept of Hell.

Genesis 18:25
Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?"

Luke 20:16
"What then will the owner of the vineyard do to them? He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others." When the people heard this, they said, "May this never be!"

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.

Revelation 20:14
Then death and Hades (Gehennah) were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

Revelation 21
1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."
5 He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."
6 He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This (That) is the second death."
Just a reminder that it was the Catholic Church that canonized scripture.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Revelation 20:14
Then death and Hades (Gehennah) were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

How do you get "gehennah" out of the Hades

That would be like saying the "gehennah" was thrown into the "gehenna"

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Luke 16:22 Became yet to be dying the poor-one and to be carried away him by the messengers into the bosom of Abraham. Died yet also the rich-one and was buried/entombed

Luke 16:23 And in the Hades lifting up his eyes existing in torments, he is seeing the Abraham from afar and Lazarus in the bosoms of him.

Matt 23:33 "Serpents! produce of vipers! how? ye may be fleeing from the judging of the geennhV <1067>"

Reve 20:14 And the Death and the Hades were cast into the Lake of the Fire, this *the Death, the second* [*is the Lake of the fire]