Rich-man and Lazarus True story or Parable

[LittleLambofJesus]

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7213672
quote poster: "We call Abraham our "Father in Faith" "

Greetings. How do others view that story Jesus told to the Jews in Luke 16 concerning the rich-man and lazarus. A parable or true story? This is one of the largest studies I have of the NT/NC.

I myself humbly view it as a "Covenantle" parable, but would like to here views from other fellow Christians of it. Thanks.......

Matthew 3:9 "And no ye should be thinking to say in yourselves 'a Father we are having, the Abraham'. For I am saying unto ye, that is able the God out of the Stones, these, to raise-up offsprings/children to the Abraham. [Luke 3:8/16:24]

Luke 16:24 And he sounding said: "Father Abraham! be thou merciful to-me! and send Lazarus!, that he should be dipping the tip of the finger of him of water, and should be cooling down the tongue of me,--that I am being pained in the Flame,this."

 

[PujolsNonRoidHomerHitter]

Parable. Although, there's no reason to believe that something similar had happened and Jesus was merely reconstructing it in story form.

What's interesting to me is that people argue against the pain and permanance of hell, and yet here's Jesus direct words describing that place. Even though it may not of been His direct intention to teach on the conditions of hell, He nevertheless would not mislead us either by introducing falsified information.

Go Cards!

 

[archierieus]

It is a parable, and it is not a description of hell. I will be getting back to this later today.

Dave

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

It is a parable, and it is not a description of hell. I will be getting back to this later today.

Dave

Could hell be a type of place where there is no "Rest". This greek word used in Reve 14:11 is interesting as it is the same form used in Matthew 11:29.....Thoughts?

Matthew 11:29 "Take! My yoke upon ye, and be learning from Me. That meek am-I and humble to the heart, and ye shall be finding Rest/ana-pausin <372> to the souls of ye"

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of the tormenting of them is ascending into Ages to-Ages. And not they are having Rest/ana-pausin <372> day and night [Matt 11:29/Hebrew 4:3]

 

[PujolsNonRoidHomerHitter]

It is a parable, and it is not a description of hell. I will be getting back to this later today.

Dave

So did Jesus mislead us with the descriptions He used?

Go Cards!

 

[PujolsNonRoidHomerHitter]

Could hell be a type of place where there is no "Rest". This greek word used in Reve 14:11 is interesting as it is the same form used in Matthew 11:29.....Thoughts?

Very much so. Part of that unrest will be a constant state of frustration. Seen perhaps in the gritting and grinding of teeth. Used to think that was only because of the physical pain . . . but also the mental anguish.

Go Cards!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Very much so. Part of that unrest will be a constant state of frustration. Seen perhaps in the gritting and grinding of teeth. Used to think that was only because of the physical pain . . . but also the mental anguish.

Go Cards!

Greetings PJ. That is one reason why I have always viewed it as "Covenantle". I spent about a week translating that parable and what I found interesting was the greek word #1276 used in vs 26. The rich-man is not only a Persone but also a People it seems........

Luke 16:26 And on all of these, between Us [NC Faith/Life] and Ye [OC Law/Death] a great chasm hath been established, so that those willing to cross-over/diabhnai <1224> (5629) hence toward ye not be able to, no yet thence toward us may be ferrying/diaperwsin <1276>.

Hebrews 11:29 By Faith They crossed-over/diebhsan <1224> (5627) the Red Sea as thru Dry: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.

 

[spiritman]

Greetings. How do others view that story Jesus told to the Jews in Luke 16 concerning the rich-man and lazarus. A parable or true story? This is one of the largest studies I have of the NT/NC.

I myself humbly view it as a "Covenantle" parable, but would like to here views from other fellow Christians of it. Thanks.......

Matthew 3:9 "And no ye should be thinking to say in yourselves 'a Father we are having, the Abraham'. For I am saying unto ye, that is able the God out of the Stones, these, to raise-up offsprings/children to the Abraham. [Luke 3:8/16:24]

Luke 16:24 And he sounding said: "Father Abraham! be thou merciful to-me! and send Lazarus!, that he should be dipping the tip of the finger of him of water, and should be cooling down the tongue of me,--that I am being pained in the Flame,this."

Coventile parable? What do you mean? :o

 

[MrPolo]

A parable or true story?

It is unclear. The tone of the story is parable-ish. However, it would be the only one like it that uses actual names. Interpreters throughout history who believe it to be a true story point this out.

 

[gwynedd1]

Greetings. How do others view that story Jesus told to the Jews in Luke 16 concerning the rich-man and lazarus. A parable or true story? This is one of the largest studies I have of the NT/NC.

I myself humbly view it as a "Covenantle" parable, but would like to here views from other fellow Christians of it. Thanks.......

Matthew 3:9 "And no ye should be thinking to say in yourselves 'a Father we are having, the Abraham'. For I am saying unto ye, that is able the God out of the Stones, these, to raise-up offsprings/children to the Abraham. [Luke 3:8/16:24]

Luke 16:24 And he sounding said: "Father Abraham! be thou merciful to-me! and send Lazarus!, that he should be dipping the tip of the finger of him of water, and should be cooling down the tongue of me,--that I am being pained in the Flame,this."

Hi LLj,

I say parable. However it is fun to take the more figurative passages literally and the didactic passages figuratively.

 

[archierieus]

So did Jesus mislead us with the descriptions He used?

Go Cards!

Jesus used stories and illustrations with which the people were familiar. The Rich Man and Lazarus is one of a series of parables, starting with that about the dishonest steward. As for the background of the RM&L story, it comes out of Hellenestic Judaism, and the details in the parable are straight out of Josephus. I will try to provide a quote from Mr. J later on. 'Hellenistic Judaism' arose from the influence of Pan Hellenism following Alexander's conquest of the ancient world. As for Jesus' parables, they were intended to illustrate a point, not to stand on four legs.

As for the details of the Hellenistic belief, they are in conflict with the plain teaching of Scripture. Some of those details show up in the parable. As for what the Bible teaches about hell, that is an interesting study in itself!

Dave

 

[Sphinx777]

Dives and Lazarus or Lazarus and Dives is a narrative attributed to Jesus that is reported only in the Gospel of Luke (Luke 16:19-31). It is also known as "The Rich Man and the Beggar Lazarus." Unlike Lazarus, the wealthy man is not named, so traditionally took as his name "Dives", the Latin word for "rich man", the term used to refer to him in the Vulgate Biblical text. The story has been a favourite for artists and theologians, as it is the most vivid account of an afterlife to be found in the New Testament.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Dives and Lazarus or Lazarus and Dives is a narrative attributed to Jesus that is reported only in the Gospel of Luke (Luke 16:19-31). It is also known as "The Rich Man and the Beggar Lazarus." Unlike Lazarus, the wealthy man is not named, so traditionally took as his name "Dives", the Latin word for "rich man", the term used to refer to him in the Vulgate Biblical text. The story has been a favourite for artists and theologians, as it is the most vivid account of an afterlife to be found in the New Testament.

Concidentally, Luke's Gospel is the only place in the NT/NC where the word "Lake" is mentioned and that greek word is eerily similar to famine....

Lake mentioned 11 times. 5 times in Luke [Luke 5:1,2 8:22,23,33] 6 times in Revelation

Luke 5:1 It became yet, in the of the throng to be nearing to Him to be hearing the word of the God, and He was standing beside the Lake/limnhn <3041> Gennesaret/gennh-saret <1082>,[Matt 14:34, Mark 6:53]

Reve 6:8 And I saw and behold! a horse, green, and the one sitting upon him, name to-him, the Death, and the Hades followed with him. And was given to them authority on the fourth of the land to-kill in sword, and in famine/limw <3042>, and in death, and by the wild-beasts of the land. [Fourth used in Revelation 4:7]

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

It is unclear. The tone of the story is parable-ish. However, it would be the only one like it that uses actual names. Interpreters throughout history who believe it to be a true story point this out.

Greetings. Lazarus was also the only one that was dead for 3 days and resurrected......Pretty special person in the NT...

John 11:43 And these saying, to a sound great He cries-out "Lazarus, hither out!"

Reve 11:12 And they hear a Voice, great, out of the Heaven saying to them "Ascend ye here"!. And they ascended into the heaven in the cloud and observed them, the enemies of them.

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7270970
Acts 1 and Revelation 11 Ascending in cloud

 

[Thekla]

I think I'm uncomfortable with "true or parable"

parables couch truth in accessible or memorable terms. Certainly, there are to this day poor awaiting notice by those with greater means. But also, the poor in spirit will inherit much ...

I was just reading this:

He would pray with his hands lifted in an Eastern attitude associating prayer with water.

more water

 

[Jig]

I interpret this narrative as a true incident and have several reasons for doing so.

First, the story is never called a parable. Many other of Jesus' stories are designated as parables, such as the sower and the seed (Luke 8:4); the prosperous farmer (Luke 12:16); the barren fig tree (Luke 13:6); and the wedding feast (Luke 14:7).

Second, the story of the rich man and Lazarus uses the actual name of a person. Such specificity would set it apart from ordinary parables, in which the characters are not named.

Third, this particular story does not seem to fit the definition of a parable, which is a presentation of a spiritual truth using an earthly illustration. The story of the rich man and Lazarus presents spiritual truth directly, with no earthly metaphor. The setting for most of the story is the afterlife, as opposed to the parables, which unfold in earthly contexts.

Plus, Pujols is correct "Even though it may not of been His direct intention to teach on the conditions of hell, He nevertheless would not mislead us either by introducing falsified information."

 

[MamaZ]

He would pray with his hands lifted in an Eastern attitude associating prayer
with water.

...
We further learn that Apa Bane was born to a wealthy family of Memphis (near modern Cairo), but withdrew to the desert near al-Ashmunain to live the life of an anchorite after being inspired by hermits he visited in the Western Desert. During an eighteen year period, he constantly stood in a dark cell without eating any food prepared by human hands. He remained standing even as he slept, resting his chest against a wall built for this purpose. He would pray with his hands lifted in an Eastern attitude associating prayer with water.


Taken from
http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/apabane.htm


What does this have to do with the Parable?

 

[Thekla]

...
We further learn that Apa Bane was born to a wealthy family of Memphis (near modern Cairo), but withdrew to the desert near al-Ashmunain to live the life of an anchorite after being inspired by hermits he visited in the Western Desert. During an eighteen year period, he constantly stood in a dark cell without eating any food prepared by human hands. He remained standing even as he slept, resting his chest against a wall built for this purpose. He would pray with his hands lifted in an Eastern attitude associating prayer with water.


Taken from
http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/apabane.htm


What does this have to do with the Parable?

Nothing directly, but with water/prayer as refreshment - the Holy Spirit/Paraclete/Comforter is associated with water too. I just thought it was interesting. The rich man desires to entreat Lazaros - and receive even a drop of water.

 

[MamaZ]

Nothing directly, but with water/prayer as refreshment - the Holy Spirit/Paraclete/Comforter is associated with water too. I just thought it was interesting. The rich man desires to entreat Lazaros - and receive even a drop of water.

Oh okay that makes sense..

 

[PujolsNonRoidHomerHitter]

Jesus used stories and illustrations with which the people were familiar. The Rich Man and Lazarus is one of a series of parables, starting with that about the dishonest steward. As for the background of the RM&L story, it comes out of Hellenestic Judaism, and the details in the parable are straight out of Josephus. I will try to provide a quote from Mr. J later on. 'Hellenistic Judaism' arose from the influence of Pan Hellenism following Alexander's conquest of the ancient world. As for Jesus' parables, they were intended to illustrate a point, not to stand on four legs.

As for the details of the Hellenistic belief, they are in conflict with the plain teaching of Scripture. Some of those details show up in the parable. As for what the Bible teaches about hell, that is an interesting study in itself!

Dave

I agree that parables are intended to teach a single principle. However, I do not see that Jesus would have used elements of a real place that would be untrue or not accurate to make a point.

Go Cards!