Rich-man and Lazarus True story or Parable

[LittleLambofJesus]

I also found this rather fascinating. This "rich-man" is also dressed the same way as the "woman/queen/city" in Revelation 18 [which is chock full of OT Jewish/Hebrew symbolism]

Some Christians view that Great City as symbolically OC Jerusalem [as I also do], and if so, I would view this "rich-man" as a type of OC High Priest, which JESUS and Paul railed against in most of the NT.
Thoughts?

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Luke 16:19 A-Man, yet any, was rich and in-slipped purple/porfuran <4209> and fine-linen/busson <1040> making-merry down to a-day, splendidly/shiningly/lamprwV <2988>.

Revelation 18:12 cargo of gold and of silver and of stone [*stones], precious and of pearl and of fine-linen/bussou <1040> and of purple/porfuraV <4209> and of silk and of scarlet and every wood citron.....................
14 And the fruition [*of thee] of the desire of the soul of thee departed from thee. And all the sumptious-things and shinings/lampra <2986> perished from thee. And not still not no shall be finding them.

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7164949&page=2
DO NOT WEEP!!!!! The Great City

 

[onwingsaseagles]

I do not see any reason to not believe this is a true story, Jesus told the story as if it were true, He gave no indication of the contrary, I cannot see why anyone would doubt the validity of Jesus' words.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I do not see any reason to not believe this is a true story, Jesus told the story as if it were true, He gave no indication of the contrary, I cannot see why anyone would doubt the validity of Jesus' words.

Greetings! The Jews of today still doubt JESUS though He came and spoke to them as their Savior/Redeemer and spoke the parables to them.......

Isaiah 28:11 And with stammering/deriding lip and in-tongue, another He shall speak to the People, this.

Ezekiel 17:2 Son of adam, propound thou a riddle and speak thou a proverb unto house of Israel:

Luke 8:10 The yet He said "to ye it has been given to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of the God, to the yet rests in parables, that looking no they may be beholding, and hearing no they may be understanding".

 

[archierieus]

I do not see any reason to not believe this is a true story, Jesus told the story as if it were true, He gave no indication of the contrary, I cannot see why anyone would doubt the validity of Jesus' words.

Because the same Jesus, Who inspired the Bible, teaches some very different things than what are described in the parable. It is a parable, intended to illustrate a point, not teach doctrine about hell. There are other Scriptures which do teach doctrine about the subject.

Dave

 

[Alethes]

Luke 16:19-30 is not true to fact, but a "Parable."

19. There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20. And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21. And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23. And in hell [hades, "grave"] he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28. For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

A "parable" is a figure of speech. In fact, in two ancient Greek manuscripts—the Bezae Caulabrigiensis and the Koridethian-Caesarean text—words are included which have been deleted in other translations. Both of these ancient manuscripts begin Luke 16:19 with the words: eipen de kai heteran parabolen, which translated means, "And He said also another parable."

A parable is a comparison by sustained resemblance. It is an extended simile: the resemblance is usually is in one specific characteristic. The likeness or resemblance must always be sought from the essence of the entire context which is the "Pharisaic" beliefs. Luke 16:14 indicates that this parable is "addressed" to the Pharisees. So Jesus wisely judged the Pharisees out of their own mouths, from their own vantage point for the Pharisees believed in rewards and punishments immediately upon death as so many believe today.

This parable does not say that "Jesus" believed in immediate rewards and punishments after death; this is what the "Pharisees" believed. This passage in Luke must be interpreted with the great quantity or mass of Scriptures. One cannot reject the one hundred clear passages and accept the one seemingly contradictory one.

Jesus could not have denied Ecclesiastes 9
Verse 4 -- For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
Verse 5-- For the living know that they shall die; but the dead know not anything, neither do they have anymore a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Verse 6 -- And their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in anything that is done under the sun.

Jesus could not have contradicted the Word of God in John 11
Verse 11 -- These things said he; and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepest; but I go that I may awake him out of sleep.
Verse 12 -- Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
Verse 13 -- Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
Verse 14 -- Then Jesus said unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Jesus could not have been more explicit then when he said, "...Lazarus is dead."

Luke 14:14 also plainly teaches about death and resurrection. "And thou shalt be blessed; for they [the dead, the lame, the blind] cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.

How can Jesus in one place talk about people being recompensed at the resurrection of the just and then teach that there is an immediate reward or punishment after death?

Jesus was addressing the parable/illustration to the Pharisees and was able to entrap them in their own snare of unbelief --- "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." Abraham, Lazarus and the rich man were not literally alive in hades; they, as all others, are literally dead until the resurrection. These three people were simply figuratively used to make a striking impact on the criticizing Pharisees.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I do not see any reason to not believe this is a true story, Jesus told the story as if it were true, He gave no indication of the contrary, I cannot see why anyone would doubt the validity of Jesus' words.

quote Alethes: This parable does not say that "Jesus" believed in immediate rewards and punishments after death; this is what the "Pharisees" believed. This passage in Luke must be interpreted with the great quantity or mass of Scriptures. One cannot reject the one hundred clear passages and accept the one seemingly contradictory one.

Because the same Jesus, Who inspired the Bible, teaches some very different things than what are described in the parable. It is a parable, intended to illustrate a point, not teach doctrine about hell. There are other Scriptures which do teach doctrine about the subject.

Dave

Some other Christians agree with thee

http://users.aristotle.net/~bhuie/lazarus.htm

The parable of Lazarus and the rich man has been the foundation for many of the erroneous beliefs about "hell" within traditional Christianity. Some have viewed it not as a parable, but as a true story Yeshua told to give details about the punishment of sinners in hell. Yet a thorough, unbiased examination of this story will show that the generally accepted interpretations of this passage of Scripture are erroneous and misleading. In this article, we will go through the parable verse by verse to determine what the Messiah was truly teaching.

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/abraham/abrahams_bosom.htm

You see, the teaching in chapter sixteen is but the continuation of the discourse in chapter fifteen, without interruption. Now, which of the five stories He gave them in this sermon was called a parable? The only one of the five which is prefaced by the claim, "And He spoke this parable unto them," was the story about the lost sheep. Was the lost sheep the only one that could be called a parable? And yet, any preacher or believer that I know will answer that the story of the lost coin, as well as the prodigal son, were also parables. Then why was the singular used - "this parable"? It should be clear to any thinking mind that all these stories were ONE PARABLE, like the facets of a diamond, as they turn each scintillates with new brilliance. Each was illustrating a view point of one great truth, and together they compose a whole.

And this parabolic discourse of Jesus is continued into chapter sixteen of Luke, including the story of the rich man and Lazarus. The truth is that all five stories are each a fractional part of the complete parable, and when we read, "He spoke this parable unto them," this embraces the entire collection of symbol-pictures which in their completeness constituted the parable which He spoke. It is a careless assumption and an unfounded assertion to argue that the story of the rich man and Lazarus is not a parable!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I should have put this as a poll and would like to ask the moderators if there is a way I could change it to one.....

 

[Thekla]

Although, the dead in Revelations attest to an awareness. And the Greek word for dead refers to the body only.

I don't think that what is described in Luke is "reward/punishment". That is reserved for the second coming. But I do think that, even now, we have a foretaste -- our disposition towards God gives a heart to various degrees filled by the Holy Spirit.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Although, the dead in Revelations attest to an awareness. And the Greek word for dead refers to the body only.

I don't think that what is described in Luke is "reward/punishment". That is reserved for the second coming. But I do think that, even now, we have a foretaste -- our disposition towards God gives a heart to various degrees filled by the Holy Spirit.

Greetings Thekla. I view that "rich-man" as both a type of OC High-Priest and King.
Note Luke 16:19 and Matthew 22:11 and that greek word used for "clothed" is interesting which I also have a study on......

Luke 16:19 A-Man, yet any, was rich and in-slipped/enedidu-sketo <1737> (5710) porfuran <4209> and busson <1040> making-merry down to a-day, shiningly [Matt 22:11]

Matthew 22:11 And entering yet the King to gaze of the ones the reclining, he saw there a Man not in-slipped/endedu-menon <1746> cothing/enduma <1742> of wedding-feast: [Luke 16:19/Zeph 1:7]

 

[squint]

You see, the teaching in chapter sixteen is but the continuation of the discourse in chapter fifteen, without interruption. Now, which of the five stories He gave them in this sermon was called a parable? The only one of the five which is prefaced by the claim, "And He spoke this parable unto them," was the story about the lost sheep. Was the lost sheep the only one that could be called a parable? And yet, any preacher or believer that I know will answer that the story of the lost coin, as well as the prodigal son, were also parables. Then why was the singular used - "this parable"? It should be clear to any thinking mind that all these stories were ONE PARABLE, like the facets of a diamond, as they turn each scintillates with new brilliance. Each was illustrating a view point of one great truth, and together they compose a whole.

And this parabolic discourse of Jesus is continued into chapter sixteen of Luke, including the story of the rich man and Lazarus. The truth is that all five stories are each a fractional part of the complete parable, and when we read, "He spoke this parable unto them," this embraces the entire collection of symbol-pictures which in their completeness constituted the parable which He spoke. It is a careless assumption and an unfounded assertion to argue that the story of the rich man and Lazarus is not a parable!

I would generally concurr with the citing above.

THEN it gets progressively MORE difficult to 'understand' parables.

To understand ALL parables we must look to the KEY that unlocks ALL of them.

Mark 4:13
And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?

If your understanding of PARABLES do not have the components listed in the Mark example, it will be FAULTY.


14 The sower soweth the word. 15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

So, where LLoJ will see all kinds of Judeans or Jews or other such as THE RICH MAN...I see simply THE DEVIL (or those of the devils family)

The LAW that Abraham referenced is THE LAW that IS written to the LAWLESS ONES...(these TOO are THE DEVIL AND HIS MESSENGERS and THESE are WITH mankind JUST AS THE RICH MAN IS WITH LAZARUS!)

The 'rich man' CONTROLLED the body of Lazarus as A KING. A CONTROLLING FORCE. And in that SLAVERY the 'rich man' made LAZARUS suffer.

Here is exactly what happened to that RICH MAN when he was SEPARATED from the BODY of LAZARUS:

Luke 11:
24 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.

(Hello, what did the RICH MAN do but THIRST??? And SEEK REST??? And WHO did the rich man DESIRE but LAZARUS! Even 'requesting' same from Abrahams bosom.)

25 And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished.
26 Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.

The section in 25-26 are those same EVIL/WICKED spirits who then have to go find their NEXT VICTIM in this present EVIL/WICKED age/generation.

The FAMILY that the 'rich man' wants to warn are THE FAMILY OF THE DEVIL AND HIS MESSENGERS who of course will NOT listen for ANY reason as THEY resist Gods Word and Gods people (all mankind)

The reference to the 5 brothers are THE 5 SENSES through which FLESH MEN operate. These 5 BROTHERS are no different than the 5 HUSBANDS that Jesus advised the Samaritan woman of...when He told her 'ALL I EVER DID.' That woman surely did MORE than just marry 5 HUSBANDS but when 'ALL I EVER DID' comes to view then those 5 HUSBANDS are the 5 senses of THE FLESH.

enjoy yer DAY!

squint

 

[Thekla]

I agree, this concept of "clothing" is important ... I have been told that it was the custom for the bridegroom or his family to provide the guest's clothes for the wedding, so this is how I understand it. Not just "any" clothing will do - either rich or poor. What is needful is that the clothing has been provided by the Bridegroom, Christ.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The reference to the 5 brothers are THE 5 SENSES through which FLESH MEN operate. These 5 BROTHERS are no different than the 5 HUSBANDS that Jesus advised the Samaritan woman of...when He told her 'ALL I EVER DID.' That woman surely did MORE than just marry 5 HUSBANDS but when 'ALL I EVER DID' comes to view then those 5 HUSBANDS are the 5 senses of THE FLESH.

enjoy yer DAY!

squint

.....

Luke 16:28 "For I am having five brothers that he may be testifying to them, that no also they may be coming into the place, this, of the torment/basanou <931>".

http://users.aristotle.net/~bhuie/lazarus.htm

.........Yielding himself to his destiny, the rich man asks one more thing of his forefather Abraham. He pleads with him to send someone to warn his brothers, so that they may escape "this place of torment" (basanou), the testing and punishment that he was undergoing.
The fact that the rich man has five brothers is a vital clue to his true symbolic identity.

Judah, the progenitor of the Jews, was the son of Jacob through Leah (Gen. 29:35). He had five full-blooded brothers: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, and Zebulun (Gen. 35:23).
While the significance of this seemingly pointless detail has been neglected by scholars throughout the centuries, you can be certain that it did not escape the notice of the Pharisees and scribes to which Christ was speaking.

They thoroughly knew their history and were extremely proud of their heritage. Yeshua wanted those self-righteous Pharisees to know exactly who He was referring to with this parable. This detail cements the identity of the rich man as the house of Judah, the Jews!

 

[squint]

.....

Luke 16:28 "For I am having five brothers that he may be testifying to them, that no also they may be coming into the place, this, of the torment/basanou <931>".

http://users.aristotle.net/~bhuie/lazarus.htm

.........Yielding himself to his destiny, the rich man asks one more thing of his forefather Abraham. He pleads with him to send someone to warn his brothers, so that they may escape "this place of torment" (basanou), the testing and punishment that he was undergoing.
The fact that the rich man has five brothers is a vital clue to his true symbolic identity.

Judah, the progenitor of the Jews, was the son of Jacob through Leah (Gen. 29:35). He had five full-blooded brothers: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, and Zebulun (Gen. 35:23).
While the significance of this seemingly pointless detail has been neglected by scholars throughout the centuries, you can be certain that it did not escape the notice of the Pharisees and scribes to which Christ was speaking.

They thoroughly knew their history and were extremely proud of their heritage. Yeshua wanted those self-righteous Pharisees to know exactly who He was referring to with this parable. This detail cements the identity of the rich man as the house of Judah, the Jews!

Sorry, Gods children are not in torment LLoJ. Your factor is largely MISSING the componet required...to understand ALL parables.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Sorry, Gods children are not in torment LLoJ. Your factor is largely MISSING the componet required...to understand ALL parables.

Yes, I have been called "anti-judean" because of my view of that parable....

Jeremiah 17:1 Sin of Judah/Y@huwdah written with a reed-pen of iron, in nail of corundum, being engrossed on tablet of the heart of them, and to horns of altars of ye, [2 Thess 2:3,4 Luke 16:24]

 

[squint]

Yes, I have been called "anti-judean" because of my view of that parable....

No doubting that. Pointed out prior myself.

Jeremiah 17:1 Sin of Judah/Y@huwdah written with a reed-pen of iron, in nail of corundum, being engrossed on tablet of the heart of them, and to horns of altars of ye, [2 Thess 2:3,4 Luke 16:24]

That's the trouble when one enters into parable land eh? It is an arena that is frought with danger...not many to enter therein.

Easy to find that broad path where we can just condemn our neighbors in various forms and disguises and prove what is 'in our hearts' in the process....

Oh, yeah, that's part of the lessons OF the parables....! We surely prove that EVIL and DARKNESS is reflected from WITHIN...and it is what COMES OUT of a man that defiles him...

'when a wicked spirit DEPARTS a man....'

enjoy!

squint

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus Yes, I have been called "anti-judean" because of my view of that parable....

No doubting that. Pointed out prior myself.

Point taken........

Luke 16:19 A-Man, yet any, was rich and clothed/enedidu-sketo <1737> (5710) porfuran <4209> and busson <1040> making-merry down to a-day, shiningly [Matt 22:11]

Matthew 22:11 And into coming yet the King, to gaze of the ones the reclining, he saw there a Man not in-clothed/endedu-menon <1746> cothing/enduma <1742> of wedding-feast: [Luke 16:19/Zeph 1:7]

zeph 1:7 Hush! in presence of my Lord YHWH, that near Day of YHWH. That YHWH prepares a sacrifice, He sanctifies ones being called of Him.
8 And He becomes in Day of sacrifice of YHWH and I visit on the chiefs, and on sons of the King, and on all of ones being clothed clothing foreign. [Matt 22:11/Revelation 19]

 

[gwynedd1]

Sorry, Gods children are not in torment LLoJ. Your factor is largely MISSING the componet required...to understand ALL parables.

Hi squint,

I agree, just some of Abraham's.

 

[squint]

Hi squint,

I agree, just some of Abraham's.

All of Israel, believers and UNbelievers were deemed GODS CHILDREN in the Old Testament. See Deut. 14:1 or Psalm 82:6 as open examples, the later of which was even cited in part by Jesus to the Pharisees.

There is not one single named individual of Israel said to be headed to burn alive by God in the entirety of the Bible. There is not one single case example in all of scripture where God is going to be burning His Own children alive in conscious torment.

So, I doubt you agree with that whatsoever but it's a fact or two nevertheless.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

All of Israel, believers and UNbelievers were deemed GODS CHILDREN in the Old Testament. See Deut. 14:1 or Psalm 82:6 as open examples, the later of which was even cited in part by Jesus to the Pharisees.

There is not one single named individual of Israel said to be headed to burn alive by God in the entirety of the Bible. There is not one single case example in all of scripture where God is going to be burning His Own children alive in conscious torment.

So, I doubt you agree with that whatsoever but it's a fact or two nevertheless.

Greetings. Who is Jesus referring to as the "sons of the Kingdom" in Matt 8 and pretend you are an OC Hebrew/Judean hearing this?

Matthew 8:12 The yet Sons of the Kingdom shall-be-being-cast-out/ek-blhqhsontai <1544> (5701) into the darkness, the outer/exwteron <1857>, there shall be the lamentation/klauqmoV <2805> and the gnashing of the teeth.

Luke 13:28 There shall be the weeping and the gnashing of the teeth, whenever ye should be seeing Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of the God, and ye yet being cast out/ekballomenouV <1544> (5746) outside/exw <1854>

 

[simonthezealot]

LL would you give us the break down on how this has been translated
31:And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Does this potentially speak of coming up from depths?
also see Hebrews 11 Abraham was one of these from the faith hall of fame and look at where they exist...
Hebrews 11:39
And[SIZE=+0] these[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] all[/SIZE][SIZE=+0], having obtained a good report[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] through[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] faith[/SIZE][SIZE=+0], received[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]not[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] the promise[/SIZE][SIZE=+0]: [/SIZE]