Rich-man and Lazarus True story or Parable

[LittleLambofJesus]

....but the Lazarus Jesus resurrected was wealthy. If it is a true story as well as a parable (which in all honesty it could be) there could be two different Lazarus's.

Can you elaborate on that? What verses show he was wealthy? Just curious

Luke 16:19 Yet a certain Man was Rich/plousioV <4145> and in-slipped purple and fine-linen making-merry down to a-day, splendidly.

Reve 3:17 That thou are saying that Rich/plousioV <4145> I am, and I have become rich and not yet one need I am having.
And not are aware that thou are the weight-calloused and forlorn and poor/ptwcoV <4434> and blind and naked.

 

[Cross Reference]

One thing we do know is that "lazarus" was a real person in the NT, correct?

The Lazurus of Mary and Martha was not the same as the one mentioned with the rich man.

And just as the corrupt murerous Judean rulers conspired to kill both Jesus and Paul and their followers, so did they also conspired to kill "lazarus".

Again, not the same Lazurus as in the account with the rich man.

And why would they want to kill him? Because he was the person Jesus resurrected from the dead after more than 3 days and what better witness of it than "lazarus" himself. Thoughts?

That is correct. .

Now, Paradise was an actual place, it was a below, the abode of the righteous dead, those who Jesus later set free when descending to it..When He and they came out, paradise came out as well and is now found in Heaven. Paul makes mention of it here: "And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter." 2 Corinthians 12:3-4 (KJV)

That is enough to prove Jesus was NOT speaking a parable nor was the Lazarus He raised from the dead, the same Lazarus mentioned in the account concerning the rich man.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The Lazurus of Mary and Martha was not the same as the one mentioned with the rich man.

What makes you think so and why should it matter?

 

[Tyndale]

Can you elaborate on that? What verses show he was wealthy? Just curious

Sorry, my mistake. I blame the Hollywood film "the greatest story ever told" I think that's where I got that idea from

 

[Cross Reference]

What makes you think so and why should it matter?

Given the account of the RM and the poor beggar Lazarus that little is known of, I should think that would be obvious. Was Martha's brother a, beggar?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Given the account of the RM and the poor beggar Lazarus that little is known of, I should think that would be obvious. Was Martha's brother a, beggar?

It is not mentioned in Luke or John whether he was or wasn't.
What is important is what is that parable/story is symbolizing to the audience of the Judeans who Jesus spoke that to, including the corrupt murderous Judean rulers.

Another point I would like to make is concerning the word "parable" beginning in Chapt 15 which I felt this commentator did a good job in pointing that out

Kindgdom Bible Studies Template Page

.............Many of this great company were publicans and sinners who drew near to hear His teaching, and mingled with them were a great number of the scribes and Pharisees. The scribes and Pharisees complained openly and bitterly against Jesus, condemning Him because He received sinners into His company and ate with them. Against this background of biting criticism Jesus stood and gave the teachings found in chapters fifteen and sixteen of Luke.

Any arrangement of chapter and verse division that clarifies or harmonizes other scripture, is more authoritative than that division that beclouds other statements of the Bible.

At the beginning of Jesus' discourse in chapter fifteen of Luke the statement is made that "He spoke this parable unto them, saying," (Lk. 15:3). The Greek is very definite in making the word for parable clearly a singular noun. It is "the parable this.." This statement is followed by five separate stories, the first of which is the story of the lost sheep, and the last is the story of the rich man and Lazarus. You see, the teaching in chapter sixteen is but the continuation of the discourse in chapter fifteen, without interruption.

Now, which of the five stories He gave them in this sermon was called a parable? The only one of the five which is prefaced by the claim, "And He spoke this parable unto them," was the story about the lost sheep. Was the lost sheep the only one that could be called a parable? And yet, any preacher or believer that I know will answer that the story of the lost coin, as well as the prodigal son, were also parables. Then why was the singular used - "this parable"?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I decided to look at the greek text of Luke 15:3 Preston Eby brought up and he is actually dead-on!

#3850 used 50 times in 48 verses. Only used 2 times outside the Gospels......Hebrew 9:9, 11:19

Search for 'Genesis 1:1' in the version
Greek text taken from here

Luke 15:3 eipen <2036> (5627) {SPAKE} de <1161> {YET} proV <4314> {TOWARD} autouV <846> {THEM} thn <3588> {THE} parabolhn <3850> {PARABLE} tauthn <3778> {THIS} legwn <3004> (5723) {SAYING}

parabolhn<3850>Noun.....Accusative....Singular....Feminine
Strong's Number G3850 matches the Greek &#960;&#945;&#961;&#945;&#946;&#959;&#955;&#8053; (parabol&#275, which occurs 50 times in 48 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/abraham/abrahams_bosom.htm

*snip*.............At the beginning of Jesus' discourse in chapter fifteen of Luke the statement is made that "He spoke this parable unto them, saying," (Lk. 15:3). The Greek is very definite in making the word for parable clearly a singular noun. It is "the parable this.."

This statement is followed by five separate stories, the first of which is the story of the lost sheep, and the last is the story of the rich man and Lazarus. You see, the teaching in chapter sixteen is but the continuation of the discourse in chapter fifteen, without interruption.............

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

This is interesting.

The same exact wording used at the beginning of Luke 16:19 is also used in 16:1.

But yet, 16:1 is considered a parable by most Christians, correct?

Luke 16:1 He spake yet also toward the Disciples of Him "a certain man was Rich who had a steward,........

Textus Rec.) Luke 16:1 elegen de kai proV touV maqhtaV autou anqrwpoV tiV hn plousioV oV eicen oikonomon.......

Luke 16:19 Yet a certain Man was Rich and in-slipped purple and fine-linen making-merry down to a-day, splendidly.

Textus Rec.) Luke 16:19 anqrwpoV de tiV hn plousioV kai enedidusketo porfuran kai busson eufrainomenoV kaq hmeran lamprwV

 

[Cross Reference]

It is not mentioned in Luke or John whether he was or wasn't.
What is important is what is that parable/story is symbolizing to the audience of the Judeans who Jesus spoke that to, including the corrupt murderous Judean rulers.

Why do you want to believe that instead of the account as spoken of by Jesus? Jesus described Paradise with relation to the torment of hell as it was before He went there. Let it say what it says and move on. Why the need to "parablize" what need not be made into one? What can be gain be distorting His account? Perhaps you do not believe there is a hell where the wicked will be in torment forever?

 

[Cross Reference]

This is interesting.

The same exact wording used at the beginning of Luke 16:19 is also used in 16:1.

But yet, 16:1 is considered a parable by most Christians, correct?

Yes, that is so, especially those with another gospel.

 

[ToxicReboMan]

This is interesting.

The same exact wording used at the beginning of Luke 16:19 is also used in 16:1.

But yet, 16:1 is considered a parable by most Christians, correct?

Luke 16:1 He spake yet also toward the Disciples of Him "a certain man was Rich who had a steward,........

Textus Rec.) Luke 16:1 elegen de kai proV touV maqhtaV autou anqrwpoV tiV hn plousioV oV eicen oikonomon.......

Luke 16:19 Yet a certain Man was Rich and in-slipped purple and fine-linen making-merry down to a-day, splendidly.

Textus Rec.) Luke 16:19 anqrwpoV de tiV hn plousioV kai enedidusketo porfuran kai busson eufrainomenoV kaq hmeran lamprwV

Absolutely bodacious my friend. Most interesting observation indeed.

 

[OpenDoor]

I don't know if this was brought up
but who was the audience Jesus was addressing?

In Luke 16:14 the Pharisees were their (before the true story or parable)
In Luke 17:1 Jesus is talking to his disciples (after the true story or parable)
Who was Jesus talking to during the true story or parable?

 

[archierieus]

I don't know if this was brought up
but who was the audience Jesus was addressing?

In Luke 16:14 the Pharisees were their (before the true story or parable)
In Luke 17:1 Jesus is talking to his disciples (after the true story or parable)
Who was Jesus talking to during the true story or parable?

Jesus was talking to the Pharisees. Note the following:

14The Pharisees, who loved money, heard all this and were sneering at Jesus. 15He said to them, "You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of men, but God knows your hearts. What is highly valued among men is detestable in God's sight.
16"The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it. 17It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.

18"Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery. 19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day.

In this passage, Jesus is addressing several of the teachings of the Pharisees, for example that about divorce, and the idea that riches are a sign of God's blessing and the rich will end up in heaven. The story is a parable.

Dave

 

[Cross Reference]

Jesus was talking to the Pharisees. Note the following:

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In this passage, Jesus is addressing several of the teachings of the Pharisees, for example that about divorce, and the idea that riches are a sign of God's blessing and the rich will end up in heaven. The story is a parable.

Dave

Jesus said: The kingdom of God "IS Like" this or it IS LIKE that. Many times He makes analogies to explain what He was trying to get across to them. In this one instance He speaks of an actual event by using the words: "There was once" and naming the people involved. Wiggle and squirm but hell is as real and as eternal as Heaven. The spirit of man cannot die nor can it return to God who gave it, unless the soul of man is reconciled to Him.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Jesus said: The kingdom of God "IS Like" this or it IS LIKE that. Many times He makes analogies to explain what He was trying to get across to them. In this one instance He speaks of an actual event by using the words: "There was once" and naming the people involved. Wiggle and squirm but hell is as real and as eternal as Heaven. The spirit of man cannot die nor can it return to God who gave it, unless the soul of man is reconciled to Him.

Abraham is also named in it [as is Moses].

The Faith of Abraham vs the Law of Moses which could also apply to the OC Israelites [Judah/Israel]?

#667 Used 7 times in NT. 2 times in Gospels [Mark and Luke], 1 time in Epistles [1 Corin 16:3], 2 times in Revelation [17:3, 21:10]

Scripture4all - Greek/Hebrew interlinear Bible software

Luke 16:22 Became yet to be dying the poor-one and to be carried away/apenecqhnai <667> (5683) him by the messengers into the bosom of Abraham.
Died yet also the rich-one and was entombed.

Luke 16:22 egeneto de apoqanein ton ptwcon kai apenecqhnai auton upo twn aggelwn eiV ton kolpon abraam apeqanen de kai o plousioV kai etafh

Strong's Number G667 matches the Greek &#7936;&#960;&#959;&#966;&#8051;&#961;&#969; (apopher&#333;), which occurs 7 times in 5 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV

667. appohero ap-of-er'-o from 575 and 5342; to bear off (literally or relatively):--bring, carry (away

 

[Cross Reference]

?? I don't understand what it is you are trying convey. Why the all Greek?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

?? I don't understand what it is you are trying convey. Why the all Greek?

I suppose because that is how I study the NT/NT.
You brought up names being used in this parable, so what is the significance of bringing up both Abraham and Moses in this Parable?

Originally Posted by Cross Reference ........ In this one instance He speaks of an actual event by using the words: "There was once" and naming the people involved.......

Also, why bring up "5 brothers" to the Judeans unless Jesus was bringing something up from the OT they might understand?

This Messianic Commentator had this to say about the 5 brothers. Remember also, after the split of Israel, the Priesthood remained with the Nation of Judah, not Israel.

Luke 16:
29 Abraham is saying to him "they are having Moses and the Prophets let them hear them!".

Luke 16:29 legei autw abraam ecousin mwsea kai touV profhtaV akousatwsan autwn

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

..........Yielding himself to his destiny, the rich man asks one more thing of his forefather Abraham. He pleads with him to send someone to warn his brothers, so that they may escape "this place of torment" (basanou), the testing and punishment that he was undergoing.
The fact that the rich man has five brothers is a vital clue to his true symbolic identity. Judah, the progenitor of the Jews, was the son of Jacob through Leah (Gen. 29:35).

He had five full-blooded brothers: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, and Zebulun (Gen. 35:23).
While the significance of this seemingly pointless detail has been neglected by scholars throughout the centuries, you can be certain that it did not escape the notice of the Pharisees and scribes to which Christ was speaking.

They thoroughly knew their history and were extremely proud of their heritage. Yeshua wanted those self-righteous Pharisees to know exactly who He was referring to with this parable. This detail cements the identity of the rich man as the house of Judah, the Jews!

 

[Cross Reference]

\

I suppose because that is how I study the NT/NT.
You brought up names being used in this parable, so what is the significance of bringing up both Abraham and Moses in this Parable?

To point up the fact it is NOT a parable. Sorry, I don't know how else to phrase it for you to understand.
Question: Do you believe in a hell as a place of eternal torment?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

\To point up the fact it is NOT a parable. Sorry, I don't know how else to phrase it for you to understand.
Question: Do you believe in a hell as a place of eternal torment?

According to the Jewish/Hebrew book of Revelation, there is indeed a place like that.

That parable is also the only place where it shows both a Person and People in torments. I hope more members can posts their views on this.........

Luke 16:24 And he sounding said "Father Abraham! be thou merciful to-me! and send Lazarus! that he should be dipping the tip of the finger of him of water and should be cooling down the tongue of me that I am being pained in the Flame this."

Luke 16:26 And upon all of these between us and ye a great chasm hath been established.......

Reve 20:15 And if any not was found in the scroll of the Life having been written, he was cast into the lake of the fire.

Reve 14:11 And the smoke of the tormenting of them into ages of ages is ascending,

 

[Mikeb85]

This is the best analysis I've read of the story of the rich man and Lazarus: LIFE AFTER DEATH 1

Written by a Greek Metropolitan, it's an excerpt from a book about life after death...