Rich-man and Lazarus True story or Parable

[squint]

Greetings. Who is Jesus referring to as the "sons of the Kingdom" in Matt 8 and pretend you are an OC Hebrew/Judean hearing this?

An open fact that there are MORE than one LISTENER or NON listener IN mankind, so WHY LLoJ do YOU see ONLY the Judean(s?)

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

But YOU of course would rather just blame the Judeans....

go figure who may be BLINDING YOU to see that way???

Matthew 8:12 The yet Sons of the Kingdom shall-be-being-cast-out/ek-blhqhsontai <1544> (5701) into the darkness, the outer/exwteron <1857>, there shall be the lamentation/klauqmoV <2805> and the gnashing of the teeth.

Luke 13:28 There shall be the weeping and the gnashing of the teeth, whenever ye should be seeing Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of the God, and ye yet being cast out/ekballomenouV <1544> (5746) outside/exw <1854>

Which kingdom LLoJ? You think the 'god of this world' HAS NO KINGDOM?

Matthew 12:26
And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

Neither the kingdom of heaven or the kingdom of satan will be seen with eyes of flesh.

enjoy!

squint

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

LL would you give us the break down on how this has been translated
31:And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Greetings. Here is how it looks word for word [YODA] in the greek though I use the tenses provided by a greek/english interlinear until I learn the greek a little better and to harmonize it better with the Jewish/Hebrew book of Revelation......

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Luke 16:31 Saying yet to him: "If Moses and the Prophets not they are hearing, neither if ever anyone out of dead-ones may be rising/anasth <450> (5632) they shall be being persuaded".

450. anistemi an-is'-tay-mee from 303 and 2476; to stand up (literal or figurative, transitive or intransitive):--arise, lift up, raise up (again), rise (again), stand up(-right).

Textus Rec.) Luke 16:31 eipen de autw ei mwsewV kai twn profhtwn ouk akouousin oude ean tiV ek nekrwn anasth peisqhsontai

Reve 11:11 And after the three days and half-equal, a spirit of life out of the God entered on them and they stand/esthsan <2476> (5627) on their feet and great fear falls upon the ones observing them.

2476. histemi his'-tay-mee a prolonged form of a primary stao stah'-o (of the same meaning, and used for it in certain tenses); to stand (transitively or intransitively),

Textus Rec.) Revelation 11:11 kai meta taV treiV hmeraV kai hmisu pneuma zwhV ek tou qeou eishlqen ep autouV kai esthsan epi touV podaV autwn kai foboV megaV epesen epi touV qewrountaV autouV

 

[simonthezealot]

Considering that combined with the Hebrew passage regarding the OT saints we must assume this only a symblollic story otherwise scripture would be inconsistent, wouldn't you agree?

 

[simonthezealot]

I have a question for my brothers who think this is a real story, "what do you think a single drop of water would do for a man destined to eternity in hell"?

 

[gwynedd1]

All of Israel, believers and UNbelievers were deemed GODS CHILDREN in the Old Testament. See Deut. 14:1 or Psalm 82:6 as open examples, the later of which was even cited in part by Jesus to the Pharisees.

There is not one single named individual of Israel said to be headed to burn alive by God in the entirety of the Bible. There is not one single case example in all of scripture where God is going to be burning His Own children alive in conscious torment.

So, I doubt you agree with that whatsoever but it's a fact or two nevertheless.

Hi squint,

Grinding their teeth in their sleep then.

Jeremiah 24

8'But like the (M)bad figs which cannot be eaten due to rottenness--indeed, thus says the LORD--so I will abandon (N)Zedekiah king of Judah and his officials, and the (O)remnant of Jerusalem who remain in this land and the ones who dwell in the land of (P)Egypt.
9'I will (Q)make them a terror and an evil for all the kingdoms of the earth, as a (R)reproach and a proverb, a taunt and a (S)curse in all places where I will scatter them.
10'I will send the (T)sword, the famine and the pestilence upon them until they are destroyed from the land which I gave to them and their forefathers.'"
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[LittleLambofJesus]

An open fact that there are MORE than one LISTENER or NON listener IN mankind, so WHY LLoJ do YOU see ONLY the Judean(s?)

That would have to be a whole new thread as I distinquish between the House/Nation of Israel and the House/Nation of Judah.......The "Judeans of Judah" no longer hold the Sceptre of Israel, Jesus does.

Genesis 49:9 Whelp of lion is Judah from prey son of me thou go up he bows he reclines/crouches as lion and as parent-lion who shall raise him?
10 Not he shall withdraw scepter/07626 shebet from Y@huwdah and statute makers staff/02710 chaqaq from between feet of him untill that becomes Shiloh and to him expectation of peoples.

Revelation 5:5 And one out of the elders is saying to me: "No you be lamenting! Behold! He conquers, the Lion, the out of the Tribe of Judah, the root of David, to up-open the scrollet and loose the seven seals of it".

 

[squint]

Hi squint,

Grinding their teeth in their sleep then.

Jeremiah 24

8'But like the (M)bad figs which cannot be eaten due to rottenness--indeed, thus says the LORD--so I will abandon (N)Zedekiah king of Judah and his officials, and the (O)remnant of Jerusalem who remain in this land and the ones who dwell in the land of (P)Egypt.
9'I will (Q)make them a terror and an evil for all the kingdoms of the earth, as a (R)reproach and a proverb, a taunt and a (S)curse in all places where I will scatter them.
10'I will send the (T)sword, the famine and the pestilence upon them until they are destroyed from the land which I gave to them and their forefathers.'"
​

Spin it however you see it. The spin is predictable before it hits the page.

 

[gwynedd1]

Spin it however you see it. The spin is predictable before it hits the page.

Your post is tops.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Spin it however you see it. The spin is predictable before it hits the page.

Hi squint. For "spin" I usually go to the Eschatology board

 

[gwynedd1]

Hi squint. For "spin" I usually go to the Eschatology board

 

[squint]

I hear ya on that one. Can't really stomach much of that baloney blow either...

 

[onwingsaseagles]

I do not see any reason to not believe this is a true story, Jesus told the story as if it were true, He gave no indication of the contrary, I cannot see why anyone would doubt the validity of Jesus' words.

Because the same Jesus, Who inspired the Bible, teaches some very different things than what are described in the parable. It is a parable, intended to illustrate a point, not teach doctrine about hell. There are other Scriptures which do teach doctrine about the subject.

Dave

Name one thing that is taught in scripture or by Jesus that is inconsistent with the story in like.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Haggai 2:6 That thus He says, YHWH of Hosts: "Yet one little, she, and I am quaking/quake/07493 ra`ash the heavens and the Land, and the sea, and the dry", [Hebrew 12:26]

Ezekiel 38:19 "And in My zeal, in fire of rage of Me, I speak: If not in day, that, shall become a quaking/07494 ra`ash, great, on Ground/0127 'adamah of Israel"?

Matt 27:51 and lo, the vail of the Sanctuary was rent in two from top unto bottom. And the Land/ did quake/eseisqh <4579>, and the rocks were rent.

Reve 16:18And there were voices and thunderings and lightnings; and great quake/seismoV <4578> such as not there was upon Land/ghV <1093>, so mighty a quake/seismoV <4578>, great

 

[gwynedd1]

the three shepherds in one month, for my soul was impatient with them, and their soul also was weary of me.

 

[Sphinx777]

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[LittleLambofJesus]

Another greek word I find rather interesting is this one used for "fine linen".
It is eerily similar to the greek word used for "abyss", the only exception being the letter A before it.
Still working on this though.....

Luke 16:19 A Man, yet any, was rich and in-slipped/enedidusketo <1737> (5710) purple and cambric/busson <1040> making merry down to a day, splendidly.

Reve 11:7 `And whenever they should be finishing the witness of them, the wild-beast/n, the-one ascending out of the Abyss/abussou<12>f, shall be doing battle with them, and he shall be conquering them, and he shall be killing them,

Reve 18:12 cargo of gold and of silver and of precious stone and of pearl and of cambric/bussinou <1039>, and of purple,

 

[gwynedd1]

Something every Jew had surely read.


1. And I went from thence to the middle of the earth, and I saw a blessed place &#8968;in which there were trees&#8969; with branches abiding and blooming [of a dismembered tree]. 2. And there I saw a holy mountain, &#8968;&#8968;and&#8969;&#8969; underneath the mountain to the east there was a stream and it flowed towards the south. 3. And I saw towards the east another mountain higher than this, and between them a deep and narrow ravine: in it also ran a stream &#8968;underneath&#8969; the mountain. 4. And to the west thereof there was another mountain, lower than the former and of small elevation, and a ravine &#8968;deep and dry&#8969;
p. 52
between them: and another deep and dry ravine was at the extremities of the three &#8968;mountains&#8969;. 5. And all the ravines were deep &#8968;&#8968;and narrow&#8969;&#8969;, (being formed) of hard rock, and trees were not planted upon them. 6. And I marveled &#8968;&#8968;at the rocks, and I marveled&#8969;&#8969; at the ravine, yea, I marveled very much.

1. Then said I: 'For what object is this blessed land, which is entirely filled with trees, and this accursed valley &#8968;&#8968;between&#8969;&#8969;?' 2. &#8968;&#8968;Then Uriel, one of the holy angels who was with me, answered and said: 'This&#8969;&#8969; accursed valley is for those who are accursed for ever: Here shall all &#8968;the accursed&#8969; be gathered together who utter with their lips against the Lord unseemly words and of His glory speak hard things.

 

[archierieus]

Although, the dead in Revelations attest to an awareness. And the Greek word for dead refers to the body only.

If you are referring to the Fifth Seal, KIM that the four horsemen which precede it are symbolic. Reasonably, what is depicted under the Fifth Seal could also be symbolic. And that would be consistent with the imagery, which comes from the OT sacrificial system. When a sacrifice was made, blood from the sacrifice was dashed on the side of the altar as a witness, and ran down under the altar. God said, "the life of all flesh is the blood." The shed blood of the martyrs bore witness, and is personified by God. He said to Cain in Gen. 4, "Thy brother's blood crieth to me from the ground!"

I don't think that what is described in Luke is "reward/punishment". That is reserved for the second coming. But I do think that, even now, we have a foretaste -- our disposition towards God gives a heart to various degrees filled by the Holy Spirit.

I believe that in the parable, Abraham says that Lazarus has his reward and the rich man is being punished. Another detail pointing to the parabolic nature of the story. Quite a number of the details contradict the rest of Scripture.

Dave

 

[archierieus]

Name one thing that is taught in scripture or by Jesus that is inconsistent with the story in like.

As late as it is, right now, I would refer you to the links LLOJ posted. I took a look, and one of them, particularly, seems quite thorough.

Dave

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Another greek word I find rather interesting is this one used for "fine linen".
It is eerily similar to the greek word used for "abyss", the only exception being the letter A before it.
Still working on this though.....

Luke 16:19 A Man, yet any, was rich and in-slipped purple and cambric/busson <1040> making merry down to a day, splendidly.

Reve 11:7 `And whenever they should be finishing the witness of them, the wild-beast/n, the-one ascending out of the Abyss/abussou<12>f, shall be doing battle with them, and he shall be conquering them, and he shall be killing them,

Reve 18:12 cargo of gold and of silver and of precious stone and of pearl and of cambric/bussinou <1039>, and of purple,

Luke is also the only Gospel writer to mention the word "abyss" and that is in Luke 8:31 concerning what I call the event of the "kamikaze swine".

The greek word #12 is used 9 times in the NT including 7 times in the book of Revelation.

Looking at where that exact form of the word that is used in Luke 8:31 is used, it is used in Romans 10 and Reve 20 [using a greek/english interlinear]

Abyss used 9 times [1 time in Luke, Romans 10:7, and 8 times in Revelation]

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Luke 8:31 And they entreated that no He should be enjoining them into the abyss/abusson <12> to be coming/going away.

Romans 10:7 Or who shall be descending into the abyss/abusson <12> this is Christ out of dead-ones to be up-leading.

Reve 20:3 And he casts him into the abyss/abusson <12> and locks [*him] and seals over him....................