Revelation Disproves Rapture

[keras]

raptured believers meet Jesus in the clouds and stay there throughout the tribulation.

How anyone could believe such nonsense, is unfathomable.

Revelation 12:14 & 17 tell us exactly where Gods Christian peoples will be during the 42 month time of the 'beast' in world control.
The Christians who kept the Covenant with God, as per Daniel 11:32, will be kept safe on a distant earth location.

Those who do violate the Covenant*, will have to face persecution and possible/probable martyrdom. But it will be them who Jesus will bring back to life and who will reign with Him. Revelation 20:4-5 The two Witnesses, Rev 11:1-13, are included with these people.

*Those Christians who agreed to a peace treaty; Daniel 9:27, with the leader of the secular peoples, instead of trusting in the Lords protection.

 

[Douggg]

Dougg, since you don’t mention any of the scriptural passages I quoted in posts 1&2, I assume that you are not quibbling with my interpretation. I quoted from Revelation 6, 7, 14 and 19.

We have martyrs in Revelation 6. In Revelation 7 we learn that every one of the 144,000 and the Great Multitude in white robes came out of the Tribulation. There is no mention of anyone being spared the Tribulation. In Revelation 14, the 144,000 are on Mt. Zion with Christ, having returned to earth, so this must be a preview of Revelation 19, when Christ returns, and the aftermath. There is no room for anyone to be “raptured” before the end-time Tribulation starts.

Dale, the resurrection/rapture event of 1Thessalonains4:14-18 will take place before the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act. The transgression of desolation is not found in Revelation, but is in Daniel 8:14. It is described in 2Thessalonians2:4.

I note the transgression of desolation (an act) on this chart. Notice it will take place before the abomination of desolation is set up.

Yes, you have cited several passages in Revelation of persons appearing in heaven that have come out of the great tribulation. I agree that there will be a great multitude (as described in Revelation 7) of saints who go through the great tribulation, who will die during that time, their souls going to heaven. Those saints will be mostly persons who become Christians during the great tribulation.

But that does not mean that there will not be a resurrection/rapture into eternal life, incorruptible bodies before the great tribulation starts. Those resurrection/rapture saints make up the bride of Christ who will be returning with Jesus on white horses in Revelation 19.

So what about the souls of the great tribulation saints, who die during the great tribulation ? There will be a resurrection for those souls in Revelation 20:4-6, to receive their eternal life, incorruptible bodies.

 

[d taylor]

How anyone could believe such nonsense, is unfathomable.

Revelation 12:14 & 17 tell us exactly where Gods Christian peoples will be during the 42 month time of the 'beast' in world control.
The Christians who kept the Covenant with God, as per Daniel 11:32, will be kept safe on a distant earth location.

Those who do violate the Covenant*, will have to face persecution and possible/probable martyrdom. But it will be them who Jesus will bring back to life and who will reign with Him. Revelation 20:4-5 The two Witnesses, Rev 11:1-13, are included with these people.

*Those Christians who agreed to a peace treaty; Daniel 9:27, with the leader of the secular peoples, instead of trusting in the Lords protection.

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I have read your nonsense before and know you are a waste of time.

 

[keras]

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I have read your nonsense before and know you are a waste of time.

Sitting in the clouds for three and a half years; is not nonsense?

If I am wrong please; pretty please; correct me in brotherly love. But be sure to use scripture, as opinions and Church doctrines don't cut it.

 

[RainySunflower]

Except, 3 and half years in clouds isn't the same as 3 and half years on Earth. Earth and Clouds timing isn't the same.

 

[Fisherking]

How anyone could believe such nonsense, is unfathomable.

Calling Jesus NONSENSE is NONSENSICAL.

You guys who think you know something and know nothing amuse me.

 

[Dale]

Dale, the resurrection/rapture event of 1Thessalonains4:14-18 will take place before the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act. The transgression of desolation is not found in Revelation, but is in Daniel 8:14. It is described in 2Thessalonians2:4.

I note the transgression of desolation (an act) on this chart. Notice it will take place before the abomination of desolation is set up.

View attachment 365711

Yes, you have cited several passages in Revelation of persons appearing in heaven that have come out of the great tribulation. I agree that there will be a great multitude (as described in Revelation 7) of saints who go through the great tribulation, who will die during that time, their souls going to heaven. Those saints will be mostly persons who become Christians during the great tribulation.

But that does not mean that there will not be a resurrection/rapture into eternal life, incorruptible bodies before the great tribulation starts. Those resurrection/rapture saints make up the bride of Christ who will be returning with Jesus on white horses in Revelation 19.

So what about the souls of the great tribulation saints, who die during the great tribulation ? There will be a resurrection for those souls in Revelation 20:4-6, to receive their eternal life, incorruptible bodies.

Dougg, you will understand my point of view better if you watch this video.

I heartily recommend it.

The Rapture is Not in the Bible, (Dan McClellan):

 

[Dale]

Dale, the resurrection/rapture event of 1Thessalonains4:14-18 will take place before the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act. The transgression of desolation is not found in Revelation, but is in Daniel 8:14. It is described in 2Thessalonians2:4.

I note the transgression of desolation (an act) on this chart. Notice it will take place before the abomination of desolation is set up.

View attachment 365711

Yes, you have cited several passages in Revelation of persons appearing in heaven that have come out of the great tribulation. I agree that there will be a great multitude (as described in Revelation 7) of saints who go through the great tribulation, who will die during that time, their souls going to heaven. Those saints will be mostly persons who become Christians during the great tribulation.

But that does not mean that there will not be a resurrection/rapture into eternal life, incorruptible bodies before the great tribulation starts. Those resurrection/rapture saints make up the bride of Christ who will be returning with Jesus on white horses in Revelation 19.

So what about the souls of the great tribulation saints, who die during the great tribulation ? There will be a resurrection for those souls in Revelation 20:4-6, to receive their eternal life, incorruptible bodies.

Dougg,
You are talking to me like I am a child. I have heard Dispensationalist/Rapturist ideas for over fifty years. I just don’t have any reason to believe them. Putting an idea in a chart is not evidence.

Dougg: “The transgression of desolation is described in 2Thessalonians2:4.”

You are misunderstanding II Thessalonians 2:4. There is no mention of Jerusalem, animal sacrifice, or Levite priests. This is a spiritual Temple. I don’t believe II Thessalonians 2:4 tells us anything about the end times. It is about false teachers and false prophets exalting themselves.

He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is
called God or is worshipped, so that he sets himself up in
God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
II Thessalonians 2:4 NIV

The curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. Matthew 15:38 NIV

When the veil of the Holy of Holies was torn by God’s power, that means that God is finished with the Jewish Temple. When Paul uses the term “God’s temple,” he is talking about something else.

 

[JulieB67]

hat verse proves that Rapture is pre-tribulation. ^^

Again, the word keep does not mean a removal from earth.

What is your take on this earlier verse which is also sent to one of the churches?


Revelation 2:10 "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.."

 

[d taylor]

DTaylor, what book are you quoting here? Is it under copyright?

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Well i actually posted scans from the book i have, The Atonement and other writing by Zane Hodges.
Amazon.com
But there is actually a book: Jesus, God's Prophet by Zane Hodges. Which i what i posted, that is part of the book i have, The Atonement and other writing
Amazon.com

Here is a free e-book Jesus, God's Prophet - Jesus, God’s Prophet – Grace Evangelical Society

I also recommend - The Power to make War by Zane Hodges

Power to Make War – GES Store

 

[Douggg]

You are talking to me like I am a child. I have heard Dispensationalist/Rapturist ideas for over fifty years.

Dale, I did not make any derogatory remarks toward you personally. I was addressing the issues.

I have been studying the end times for over fifty years also. I am 4 years older than you.

Dougg: “The transgression of desolation is described in 2Thessalonians2:4.”

You are misunderstanding II Thessalonians 2:4. There is no mention of Jerusalem, animal sacrifice, or Levite priests. This is a spiritual Temple. I don’t believe II Thessalonians 2:4 tells us anything about the end times. It is about false teachers and false prophets exalting themselves.

Where does Jesus return to ? Is the Mt. of Olives not in Jerusalem, directly across from the temple mount ?

Where will the beast-king, the false prophet, and Satan be at Jesus's return ?

The Jews (Judaism) in Israel are looking to rebuild their temple dedicated to the praise and worship of the One True God. There are organizations focused on that desire, such as, the temple institute, and the temple mount faithful.

The Antichrist will reveal himself to be the man of sin in 2Thessalonians2:4, by sitting in the temple of God, claiming to have achieved God-hood.

There will have to be a temple built in order for the end times prophecy in Daniel 9:27 and Daniel 8:11-13 of stopping the animal sacrifices to be fulfilled.

 

[d taylor]

Dale, I did not make any derogatory remarks toward you personally. I was addressing the issues.

I have been studying the end times for over fifty years also. I am 4 years older than you.


Where does Jesus return to ? Is the Mt. of Olives not in Jerusalem, directly across from the temple mount ?

Where will the beast-king, the false prophet, and Satan be at Jesus's return ?

The Jews (Judaism) in Israel are looking to rebuild their temple dedicated to the praise and worship of the One True God. There are organizations focused on that desire, such as, the temple institute, and the temple mount faithful.

The Antichrist will reveal himself to be the man of sin in 2Thessalonians2:4, by sitting in the temple of God, claiming to have achieved God-hood.

There will have to be a temple built in order for the end times prophecy in Daniel 9:27 and Daniel 8:11-13 of stopping the animal sacrifices to be fulfilled.

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Jesus first comes first to Bozrah, the region of Petra, and then to the Mount of Olives. This is due in part to comparing the description of the Lord’s garment “dipped in blood” in Revelation 19:13 as He appears in the sky, and the question about His garment being stained crimson as He comes from Bozrah (Isaiah 63:1) In Isaiah 63:3 He explains that His garment became stained in His battle against the nations there.

 

[Douggg]

Dougg, you will understand my point of view better if you watch this video.

I heartily recommend it.

The Rapture is Not in the Bible, (Dan McClellan):

I watched the video and have heard those arguments before.

The speaker focuses on being caught up into the clouds in 1Thessalonians4:17 does not mean taken to heaven. The speaker though is mistaken because in Acts 1:9-11, Jesus Himself was taken up to disappear in a cloud from the sight of the apostles, as He went to heaven.

Acts1:
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

 

[keras]

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Jesus first comes first to Bozrah, the region of Petra, and then to the Mount of Olives. This is due in part to comparing the description of the Lord’s garment “dipped in blood” in Revelation 19:13 as He appears in the sky, and the question about His garment being stained crimson as He comes from Bozrah (Isaiah 63:1) In Isaiah 63:3 He explains that His garment became stained in His battle against the nations there.

The Prophecy in Isaiah 63 relates to the Sixth Seal Judgment/punishment of the ungodly peoples. it must take place some years before the Return.
It does not describe Armageddon.

 

[keras]

The speaker focuses on being caught up into the clouds in 1Thessalonians4:17 does not mean taken to heaven.

Thats because it doesn't mean anyone will be taken up to heaven.
Jesus has just departed from heaven then, - why shouldn't His people go with Him to Jerusalem?

 

[Douggg]

Thats because it doesn't mean anyone will be taken up to heaven.
Jesus has just departed from heaven then, - why shouldn't His people go with Him to Jerusalem?

The destination for the resurrected/raptured saints of 1Thessalonians4:14-18 is heaven, where Jesus has prepared a place for us, John 14:2-3.

If I recall correctly, don't you think in your scenario that those in 1Thessalonians4:14-18 is not talking talking about being taken to Jerusalem, but to a location on earth far away from Jerusalem where the beast and false prophet will be persecuting Christians ?

 

[Dale]

Dale, the resurrection/rapture event of 1Thessalonains4:14-18 will take place before the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act. The transgression of desolation is not found in Revelation, but is in Daniel 8:14. It is described in 2Thessalonians2:4.

I note the transgression of desolation (an act) on this chart. Notice it will take place before the abomination of desolation is set up.

View attachment 365711

Yes, you have cited several passages in Revelation of persons appearing in heaven that have come out of the great tribulation. I agree that there will be a great multitude (as described in Revelation 7) of saints who go through the great tribulation, who will die during that time, their souls going to heaven. Those saints will be mostly persons who become Christians during the great tribulation.

But that does not mean that there will not be a resurrection/rapture into eternal life, incorruptible bodies before the great tribulation starts. Those resurrection/rapture saints make up the bride of Christ who will be returning with Jesus on white horses in Revelation 19.

So what about the souls of the great tribulation saints, who die during the great tribulation ? There will be a resurrection for those souls in Revelation 20:4-6, to receive their eternal life, incorruptible bodies.

Dougg: “Yes, you have cited several passages in Revelation of persons appearing in heaven that have come out of the great tribulation.”

You are ignoring the obvious.

Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes —
who are they, and where did they come from?”
I answered, “Sir, you know.” And he said, “These are they
who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed
their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Revelation 7: 13-14 NIV

There is no mention of anyone in heaven being spared the tribulation. There is no such category. Revelation says that

EVERY​

person in heaven came out of the tribulation. Now, some say that the tribulation has been going on since New Testament Times and will only end with the return of Christ. That interpretation works just fine here.

Dougg: “Those resurrection/rapture saints make up the bride of Christ who will be returning with Jesus on white horses in Revelation 19.”

This is completely false. Revelation 6 tells us of martyrs, Revelation 7 &14 tell us about the 144,000, and Revelation 7 also tells us about the Great Multitude. None of these chapters mention “rapture saints.” The only sensible interpretation is that the army that accompanies Christ at His white horse return are those who have been introduced earlier, such as the 144,000.

Dougg: “I agree that there will be a great multitude (as described in Revelation 7) of saints who go through the great tribulation, who will die during that time, their souls going to heaven. Those saints will be mostly persons who become Christians during the great tribulation.”
Further: “So what about the souls of the great tribulation saints, who die during the great tribulation ? There will be a resurrection for those souls …”

Revelation 6 gives the same status to all martyrs in heaven. Dougg, you have set up a system of First Class Martyrs and Second Class Martyrs, who are resurrected at different times.

Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were
told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow-
servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been
was completed. Revelation 6:11 NIV

The Scripture says that martyrs newly arriving in heaven are in no way inferior to those already there. The new arrivals are “brothers” and “fellow-servants” to the martyrs already in heaven. This one verse rules out a “rapture” before the Second Coming. It tells us that martyrs in heaven will not be resurrected until their number is complete, that is, the last martyrdom is finished.

 

[Dale]

Dale, I did not make any derogatory remarks toward you personally. I was addressing the issues.

I have been studying the end times for over fifty years also. I am 4 years older than you.


Where does Jesus return to ? Is the Mt. of Olives not in Jerusalem, directly across from the temple mount ?

Where will the beast-king, the false prophet, and Satan be at Jesus's return ?

The Jews (Judaism) in Israel are looking to rebuild their temple dedicated to the praise and worship of the One True God. There are organizations focused on that desire, such as, the temple institute, and the temple mount faithful.

The Antichrist will reveal himself to be the man of sin in 2Thessalonians2:4, by sitting in the temple of God, claiming to have achieved God-hood.

There will have to be a temple built in order for the end times prophecy in Daniel 9:27 and Daniel 8:11-13 of stopping the animal sacrifices to be fulfilled.

Dougg: “There will have to be a temple built in order for the end times prophecy in Daniel 9:27 and Daniel 8:11-13 of stopping the animal sacrifices to be fulfilled.”

If your end times system depends on the Temple being rebuilt, it fails. Less than 1% of the Jews in Israel have any flicker of interest in rebuilding the Temple even if the political situation allowed it. (It doesn’t.) Most ultra-orthodox rabbis say that no one should even set foot on the Temple Mount because you might be stepping on the Holy of Holies. This makes no sense to me. The Holy of Holies was de-consecrated when the Romans destroyed the Temple, but that is what ultra-orthodox rabbis say.

At one time in the past, when almost everyone kept animals, lived in close proximity to them, and slaughtered their own meat, animal sacrifice made emotional sense to people. Today, it doesn’t. Animal sacrifice is not going to be resumed.

Dougg: “The Jews (Judaism) in Israel are looking to rebuild their temple dedicated to the praise and worship of the One True God. There are organizations focused on that desire, such as, the temple institute, and the temple mount faithful.”

I am familiar with the Temple Institute. They are an insignificant minority. If you believe otherwise, you’ve been hoodwinked.

 

[d taylor]

The Prophecy in Isaiah 63 relates to the Sixth Seal Judgment/punishment of the ungodly peoples. it must take place some years before the Return.
It does not describe Armageddon.

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The verses are stating where Jesus will first return to, when He comes at the second advent.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Yes, you have cited several passages in Revelation of persons appearing in heaven that have come out of the great tribulation. I agree that there will be a great multitude (as described in Revelation 7) of saints who go through the great tribulation, who will die during that time, their souls going to heaven. Those saints will be mostly persons who become Christians during the great tribulation.

But that does not mean that there will not be a resurrection/rapture into eternal life, incorruptible bodies before the great tribulation starts. Those resurrection/rapture saints make up the bride of Christ who will be returning with Jesus on white horses in Revelation 19.

So what about the souls of the great tribulation saints, who die during the great tribulation ? There will be a resurrection for those souls in Revelation 20:4-6, to receive their eternal life, incorruptible bodies.

But, Revelation 20:4-6 refers to "the first resurrection". If that was referring to a mass bodily resurrection of believers then, in your view, that would be the second resurrection and not the first resurrection. You have a first resurrection already occurring before "the first resurrection", which you understand to be a mass bodily resurrection of believers.

I, of course, disagree with Premillennialism, but at least post-trib premils don't try to say there is a mass bodily resurrection event even before the first resurrection, which Premils see as a mass bodily resurrection event.