Revelation Disproves Rapture

[Douggg]

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Believers are not raptured to heaven, but they meet Jesus in the clouds where they will stay for the 7 years of the tribulation.

No, not remaining in the clouds.

For the resurrection/rapture, Jesus will come again and receive those who are looking for him to be taken to heaven where he will have prepare a place for us.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

 

[Fisherking]

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Believers are not raptured to heaven, but they meet Jesus in the clouds where they will stay for the 7 years of the tribulation.

That is what rapio means, the Latin was rapio, Greek was Harpazo or SNATCHED AWAY.

SAME THING Different language.

 

[RainySunflower]

You are welcome internet. ^^

 

[JulieB67]

Yes, so 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:11 is all one narrative

Exactly right. And yet everyone continues to miss that fact. Many stop at 4:17 and 18.

 

[d taylor]

No, not remaining in the clouds.

For the resurrection/rapture, Jesus will come again and receive those who are looking for him to be taken to heaven where he will have prepare a place for us.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

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No that verse is addressing people who die before the rapture like believers who are dying or died yesterday and today. But the raptured believers meet Jesus in the clouds and will stay there till Jesus leaves the clouds and comes and fights for Israel with these believers coming with Jesus. Where they will help rule during The Messiah's 1000 year rule on earth after the tribulation.

Then after the 1000 rule the earth and heavens will be destroyed and a new heaven and earth created. Where then the prepared place ( many mansions) in heaven, will come down to the new earth known as the New Jerusalem and will remain on the new earth for all of eternity.

 

[d taylor]

That is what rapio means, the Latin was rapio, Greek was Harpazo or SNATCHED AWAY.

SAME THING Different language.

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So with you saying believers will be raptured to heaven. You were actually saying believers are raptured to the clouds.

 

[d taylor]

Dtaylor: “Ok then explain how Jesus return is not known “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. The rapture is an event that happens in one day and hour, but the tribulation is a 7 year long event.”

If you think that the time of the Second Coming will be known before it happens, that only shows that the Second Coming has been largely replaced with the myth of “rapture.” Jesus said that even the angels of heaven do not know the exact time of the Second Coming.

The scripture you quote refutes the notion of rapture. The whole idea of rapture is that a significant part of the earth’s population will mysteriously disappear and those who remain will have no idea what happened. They will think that the missing people were beamed up by aliens or something. The scripture you quote, Matthew 24:30, says the opposite.

“At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the
sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see
the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power
and great glory.
Matthew 24:30 NIV

Rapturists claim to separate the Second Coming into two parts, the Rapture, followed by the Second Coming, or a secret Coming and a public Coming. There is no secret Coming where Christ grabs His followers before the public Second Coming here. We are told flatly that all nations will see the Son of Man coming in the sky.

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You are taking two sets of verses that are addressing two different subjects, it is not a continuous thought.

First, Jesus gives many signs for the event described in Matt 24:4-31. Thus, you can know when the event is happening.
But the Rapture, while imminent, is a sign-less event. Hence, when the Lord says, “of that day and hour no one knows…” (Matt 24:36-44), He is referring to the Rapture, not to the Second Coming at the end of the Tribulation.

The words “now concerning or but ” (peri de) start verse 36 and indicate that a new idea is being discussed.

The words “that day and hour” (v 36) refer to the start of the day of the Lord, that is, the Rapture. And “that day and hour” is distinguished from references to “those days” (plural) in the prior section (i.e., Matt 24:19, 22, 29).

 

[RainySunflower]

We may not know the day or the hour, but we know the season .... And we are in that season.

 

[JulieB67]

You are welcome internet. ^^

That verse does not prove a rapture or a removal from the earth. We see the same Greek word for "keep" in Christ's prayer.

John 17:15 "I pray not that Thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that Thou shouldest keep them from the evil."

It basically means to guard over, keep an eye on. So God can certainly protect his own, especially in times of tribulation and Christ talks about the patience of the saints in Revelation.

Also we see another letter to the churches before the verse you posted where it states that the devil will throw some into prison.

Revelation 2:10 "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.."

So certainly the church is not removed.

 

[RainySunflower]

That verse proves that Rapture is pre-tribulation. ^^

 

[keras]

We Christians will not and cannot be physically removed from this earth. Heaven is a place for Spirit beings and 'rapture to heaven' believers, of whatever timing; know this, so their answer to that is: we are 'changed' and made immortal at the moment of rapture. This ignores the plain scripture of Revelation 20:11-15, of how it is only at the Great White Throne Judgement, that immortality is conferred to those whose names are found in the Book of Life. The 'change at the twinkle of an eye', in Corinthians 15, is a prophecy about what happens at the GWT, AFTER the Millennium.

Re: the word 'escape' in Luke 21:36. This is rendered as 'pass safely through' in the Revised English Bible.
Although 'escape' is one way of translating the Greek word there, to do that is to directly conflict with the context of the immediately preceding verse 35, that says what will happen; 'will come upon everyone the whole world over'. The REB correctly renders Luke 21:34-36.
Certainly, verse 36 does not even hint of a rapture to heaven; that has to be imposed onto the text.

Re; Revelation 3:10. Being 'kept from', doesn't mean taken away from. The 3 men in the fiery furnace weren't taken out of it, they were protected in it. Noah went thru the Flood, people today face persecution; it’s simply illogical and totally unscriptural to even think that suddenly God will allow His people to 'escape, away from’, trials and testing, let alone take them all up to heaven before Judgement!

The other aspect of a 'rapture to heaven', is what does God really want of His people? We have the Great Commission. Matthew 28:19 When did, or when will, God rescind that?

So what will the Lord do for His faithful people?
Most will know that I point out how the Lord's holy people, that is: every faithful Christian, will be gathered into all of the holy Land, Psalm 107, Ezekiel 34:11-16, where they will be the people God always wanted in His Land, being His witnesses, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:27 and His Light to the nations. Isaiah 49:8, Matthew 5:14-15

I have plenty of Biblical proofs of this. It is what will happen, any other belief is deception.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.


Revelation 16:
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

The kings of the earth will gather their armies at Armageddon in Israel to prepare to make war on Jesus and His army. For 45 days, they will prepare to make war on Jesus and His army.

They are already gathered before the day He comes, so you have proven nothing here. Once He comes He will bring sudden destruction upon all of His enemies. That destruction is described in Revelation 19:15-18.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Matthew 24:27 is saying how evident that Jesus's return will be. It will not be in some secretive location, verse 26..

It will be evident, but it will also happen quickly. As quick as lightning flashes from the east to the west.

Revelation 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

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Okay, I have addressed your issues now for several posts. Time for you to answer my question...

If that's what you call addressing my issues. I hardly think you did not much at all to address them.

Aren't you aware that the Jews (Judaism) are looking for their king of Israel messiah (someone other than Jesus - i.e. the another of John 5:43) ?

Of course. They have been for a long time. Who cares? Not me. They need to hear the gospel and find out who the real Messiah is. And a good number of them have come to believe in Jesus over the past almost 2,000 years including 3,000 on the day of Pentecost alone.

John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

That "another" will be the Antichrist person.

No, it will not be. Jesus was not referencing an individual Antichrist person there. He was saying they would receive other people as their Messiah besides Him. He said there would be false Christs (plural), not just one.

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Exactly right. And yet everyone continues to miss that fact. Many stop at 4:17 and 18.

Right. But, there's no excuse for it. Unfortunately, I think it's partly because a chapter break was inappropriately placed at the end of 1 Thessalonians 4.

Did you know one person was responsible for creating the chapter breaks (Stephen Langton in the early 13th century)? That's kind of insane. It should have been a committee making that determination instead of just one person. I can't believe everyone just accepted what one person decided about where the chapter breaks should be.

 

[Dale]

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Believers are not raptured to heaven, but they meet Jesus in the clouds where they will stay for the 7 years of the tribulation.

I've never heard that one before. Did you make it up?
I'm not sure how you live in the clouds for seven years.

 

[Dale]

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The rapture is not a separate event from Jesus' second coming, it is part of the second coming. The first part, Jesus leaves out of heaven (the heaven where God The Father is) and meets believers in the clouds where they will remain throughout the 7 year tribulation

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DTaylor, what book are you quoting here? Is it under copyright?

 

[Dale]

The resurrection/rapture is found in 1Thessalonians5:9-11. "11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do."

An extension of 1Thessalonians4:14-18. "18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

Dougg, since you don’t mention any of the scriptural passages I quoted in posts 1&2, I assume that you are not quibbling with my interpretation. I quoted from Revelation 6, 7, 14 and 19.

We have martyrs in Revelation 6. In Revelation 7 we learn that every one of the 144,000 and the Great Multitude in white robes came out of the Tribulation. There is no mention of anyone being spared the Tribulation. In Revelation 14, the 144,000 are on Mt. Zion with Christ, having returned to earth, so this must be a preview of Revelation 19, when Christ returns, and the aftermath. There is no room for anyone to be “raptured” before the end-time Tribulation starts.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The word "wrath" does not appear in 1Thessalonians5:2-3.

Are you saying that you don't think the "sudden destruction" that occurs when the day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night is the Lord's wrath? If so, that would mean you somehow think that the "sudden destruction" from which those in spiritual darkness "shall not escape" is not the Lord's wrath even though it clearly is His wrath.

 

[Fisherking]

So with you saying believers will be raptured to heaven. You were actually saying believers are raptured to the clouds.

Does God have to spell out everything for you? Jesus PLUNGES in the Sickle himself in Rev. 14:14, thus he is Harvesting the Church Pre Trib. in vs. 14 in a Cinematic flashback, that is done because God gave us Parenthetical Citation Chapters with themes, Rev. 14 is The Harvest Chapter. We are shown the end times Jews (144,000.........5 million Jews) and the wicked grapes, elsewhere these two are the Wheat and the Trees whilst we are not Wheat that grows to the end with the tares, we are the Barely harvest, it always came in first and did not need to be crushed & sifted like wheat in order to be harvested.

The very word "Tribulation" comes from a Greek word for a Machine (the Tribulum, look it up) that crushed the wheat before harvesting the wheat. Israel must be CRUSHED (think 70th Week Penance) meanwhile I though we the Church were told to STAY READY, do not be in the dark but stay in the light. We are ready to be Harvested, you know why? The Blood covers us, Israel only accepts the Messiah after the 70th week starts. Of course we go to the Abode CREATED FOR, in the Marriage Chambers.

 

[d taylor]

Does God have to spell out everything for you? Jesus PLUNGES in the Sickle himself in Rev. 14:14, thus he is Harvesting the Church Pre Trib. in vs. 14 in a Cinematic flashback, that is done because God gave us Parenthetical Citation Chapters with themes, Rev. 14 is The Harvest Chapter. We are shown the end times Jews (144,000.........5 million Jews) and the wicked grapes, elsewhere these two are the Wheat and the Trees whilst we are not Wheat that grows to the end with the tares, we are the Barely harvest, it always came in first and did not need to be crushed & sifted like wheat in order to be harvested.

The very word "Tribulation" comes from a Greek word for a Machine (the Tribulum, look it up) that crushed the wheat before harvesting the wheat. Israel must be CRUSHED (think 70th Week Penance) meanwhile I though we the Church were told to STAY READY, do not be in the dark but stay in the light. We are ready to be Harvested, you know why? The Blood covers us, Israel only accepts the Messiah after the 70th week starts. Of course we go to the Abode CREATED FOR, in the Marriage Chambers.

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So I understand the rapture, you are the one not addressing the question i asked you, I did not ask God.

Here is your reply to my post that you quoted in #39 which addresses noting in the post i made. I do not need a word lesson

That is what rapio means, the Latin was rapio, Greek was Harpazo or SNATCHED AWAY.

SAME THING Different language.

What you wrote above has noting to do with being raptured to the clouds or heaven. Which in the original post i quoted you made #35. Where you stated believers are shown in Heaven with Jesus. Which is false, raptured believers meet Jesus in the clouds and stay there throughout the tribulation.

So there go study some more words.