Revelation Chapter One - The Message, the Church, the Seven Golden Candlesticks, The Seven Churches

[Happygolucky?]

The keyword there in Ezra 6:15 is "finished".

Okay, you said he worked on it. The passage tells us when the work was finished -
"And this house was finished on the third day of the month of Adar, which was in the sixth year of the reign of Darius the king." (Ezra 6:15)

If Zerubbabel was still alive when the finishing took place, that would give credence to God saying his hands would finish the house.
If Zerubabbel was not alive then I would give more attention to his finishing it to be allegorical.

Not that much more allegory is needed for me to realize that the REAL and GREATER Zerubbabel is Jesus Christ.

Zerubbabel was alive when the temple was finished. I never said Zerubbabel did NOT work on any of the temple. I said he did NOT touch the foundation of the second temple

I’ve been back and forth proving that he did not touch the foundation. He wasn’t governor when the exiles first returned, in 539/538, Sheshbazzar was governor. Ezra 1:8.
This is why Sheshbazzar is given credit for laying the foundation in Ezra 5:16.

 

[oikonomia]

I’ve been back and forth proving that he did not touch the foundation. He wasn’t governor when the exiles first returned, in 539/538, Sheshbazzar was governor. Ezra 1:8.
This is why Sheshbazzar is given credit for laying the foundation in Ezra 5:16.

I go with Zheshbazzar and Zerubbabel being the same person.
And some like yourself believe they were not.

The Same: (my view)

Easton's Bible Dictionary - Zerubbabel [my bolding]
Zerubbabel [N] [H] Zerubbabel - Smith's Bible Dictionary Online
the seed of Babylon, the son of Salathiel or Shealtiel ( Haggai 1:1 ; Zorobabel, Matthew 1:12 ); called also the son of Pedaiah ( 1 Chronicles 3:17-19 ), i.e., according to a frequent usage of the word "son;" the grandson or the nephew of Salathiel. He is also known by the Persian name of Sheshbazzar ( Ezra 1:8 Ezra 1:11 ). In the first year of Cyrus, king of Persia, he led the first band of Jews, numbering 42,360 ( Ezra 2:64 ), exclusive of a large number of servants, who returned from captivity at the close of the seventy years. In the second year after the Return, he erected an altar and laid the foundation of the temple on the ruins of that which had been destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar ( 3:8-13 ; ch. 4-6). All through the work he occupied a prominent place, inasmuch as he was a descendant of the royal line of David.

Not the Same:

International Standard Bible Encyclopedia - Zerubbabel [my bolding]​

ZERUBBABEL

3. Relation to Sheshbazzar:

It has been shown in the article on Sheshbazzar that he and Zerubbabel may possibly have been the same person and that the name may have been Shamash-ban (or bun)-zer-Babili-usur. It seems more probable, however, that Sheshbazzar, the prince of Judah, was governor under Cyrus and that Zerubbabel was governor under Darius. The former, according to Ezra 1:8 and 5:14-16, laid the foundations, and the latter completed the building of the temple (Ezra 2:2,68; 4:2; Haggai 1:14; Zechariah 4:9).

I believe the first article is what I should go with.

 

[Happygolucky?]

I go with Zheshbazzar and Zerubbabel being the same person.
And some like yourself believe they were not.

The Same: (my view)

Easton's Bible Dictionary - Zerubbabel [my bolding]
Zerubbabel [N] [H] Zerubbabel - Smith's Bible Dictionary Online
the seed of Babylon, the son of Salathiel or Shealtiel ( Haggai 1:1 ; Zorobabel, Matthew 1:12 ); called also the son of Pedaiah ( 1 Chronicles 3:17-19 ), i.e., according to a frequent usage of the word "son;" the grandson or the nephew of Salathiel. He is also known by the Persian name of Sheshbazzar ( Ezra 1:8 Ezra 1:11 ). In the first year of Cyrus, king of Persia, he led the first band of Jews, numbering 42,360 ( Ezra 2:64 ), exclusive of a large number of servants, who returned from captivity at the close of the seventy years. In the second year after the Return, he erected an altar and laid the foundation of the temple on the ruins of that which had been destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar ( 3:8-13 ; ch. 4-6). All through the work he occupied a prominent place, inasmuch as he was a descendant of the royal line of David.

Not the Same:

International Standard Bible Encyclopedia - Zerubbabel [my bolding]​

ZERUBBABEL

3. Relation to Sheshbazzar:

It has been shown in the article on Sheshbazzar that he and Zerubbabel may possibly have been the same person and that the name may have been Shamash-ban (or bun)-zer-Babili-usur. It seems more probable, however, that Sheshbazzar, the prince of Judah, was governor under Cyrus and that Zerubbabel was governor under Darius. The former, according to Ezra 1:8 and 5:14-16, laid the foundations, and the latter completed the building of the temple (Ezra 2:2,68; 4:2; Haggai 1:14; Zechariah 4:9).

I believe the first article is what I should go with.

Yes, and the only reason why people try to make them into the same person is because they don’t understand that Zechariah 4 is entirely symbolic. If they knew the truth of Zechariah 4, they wouldn’t be making such claims.

Ezra 1:8, he is Sheshbazzar ?

Then Few verses later

Ezra 2:2 he is Zerubbabel ?

Ezra 5:1-3 Zerubbabel and his brethren of the exiles rise up to start work again on the temple structure 16-17 years, after the foundation was done



Zerubbabel and brethren give information to Tattenai to send a letter to King Darius. This is what Zerubbabel and the leaders say


Ezra 5:14-16



Is Zerubbabel really going to refer to himself as an entirely separate person, whose name is Sheshbazzar? Darius the Persian doesn’t care about Babylonian names. He checking the decree of Cyrus a Persian, not a Babylonian.


Daniel referes to himself as Daniel not Beltashazzar. Darius the Mede called “Daniel” by his proper name. He didn’t call him Beltashazzar

Daniel 6:20

20And when he had come near the den to Daniel, he cried out with a troubled voice. The king began speaking and said to Daniel, “Daniel, servant of the living God, has your God, whom you continually serve, been able to rescue you from the lions?”




Later on in Nehemiah, he speaks of governors (plural), before him. He was a bit younger though.

Nehemiah 5:15

Nehemiah served as governor at the time of Joiakim (Joshua the high priests son). He speaks of plural governors before him.

Nehemiah 6:26

26These men served in the days of Joiakim the son of Jeshua, the son of Jozadak, and in the days of Nehemiah the governor and Ezra the priest and scribe.


Here is the line of Jeshuas (Joshua) sons

Nehemiah 12:10

10Jeshua fathered Joiakim, Joiakim fathered Eliashib, Eliashib fathered Joiada, 11Joiada fathered Jonathan, and Jonathan fathered Jaddua.


Nehemiah was governor when Joiakim was priest. This was the son of Joshua.


Governors of Judah- Sheshbazzar, Zerubbabel. (Was there one before Nehemiah?), Nehemiah



Basically, no one would ever read Ezra and think Sheshbazzar is Zerubbabel. Zechariah is a prophet, Zechariah 4 is entirely prophetic.

Zerubbabel was not Sheshbazzar, the only reason this is even an issues is because people don’t understand Zechariah 4

 

[oikonomia]

The vision of Joshua the priest being before the Angel of Jehovah, soiled and needing to be cleansed AND the Branch of Zerubbabel being before him can be understood symbolically without having to believe Sheshbazzar was not Zerubbabel.

That the two names are disputed as to who is who is one thing.
Blaming the dispute on allegedly not seeing symbolism in any of the visions in Zechariah is not the sole cause of the dispute.

Ie. "Oh, if you only saw that sign shown Zechariah has symbolism, THEN ONLY you would know Sheshbazzar cannot be Zerubbabel" doesn't make good sense to me.

Taking Zechariah 3:1-10 as a sign or vision conveying the situation doesn't garuantee that the reader has to follow on to count two governors with two different people rather than one governor referred to by two names.

There are ten verses in the section. Which one/s INSISTS that Zerubbabel could not have been known by another name?

"
Then He showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the Angel of Jehovah and Satan standing at his right hand to be his adversary.

And Jehovah said to Satan, Jehovah rebuke you, Satan! Indeed, Jehovah, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?

Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments and was standing before the Angel.

And He answered and spoke to those standing before Him, saying, Remove the filthy garments from him. Then He said to him, See, I hereby make your iniquity pass from you and clothe you with stately robes.

And He said, Let them put a clean turban upon his head. And they put the clean turban upon his head and clothed him with garments while the Angel of Jehovah stood by.

And the Angel of Jehovah testified to Joshua, saying,

Thus says Jehovah of hosts, If you will walk in My ways and if you will keep My charge, then you will both judge My house and keep My courts, and I will grant you to walk among these standing here.

Hear then, Joshua the high priest, you and your fellows who sit before you — for they are men of symbol — for I am about to bring forth My servant, the shoot.

For here is the stone that I have set before Joshua — upon one stone are seven eyes. I will engrave its engraving, declares Jehovah of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.

In that day, declares Jehovah of hosts, each of you will invite his neighbor to come under the vine and under the fig tree."

Apply the same thing to chapter 4. Which of the 14 verses in chapter 4 necessitate that Zerubbabel cannot have been called by another name?

 

[Happygolucky?]

The vision of Joshua the priest being before the Angel of Jehovah, soiled and needing to be cleansed AND the Branch of Zerubbabel being before him can be understood symbolically without having to believe Sheshbazzar was not Zerubbabel.

That the two names are disputed as to who is who is one thing.
Blaming the dispute on allegedly not seeing symbolism in any of the visions in Zechariah is not the sole cause of the dispute.

Ie. "Oh, if you only saw that sign shown Zechariah has symbolism, THEN ONLY you would know Sheshbazzar cannot be Zerubbabel" doesn't make good sense to me.

Taking Zechariah 3:1-10 as a sign or vision conveying the situation doesn't garuantee that the reader has to follow on to count two governors with two different people rather than one governor referred to by two names.

There are ten verses in the section. Which one/s INSISTS that Zerubbabel could not have been known by another name?

"
Then He showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the Angel of Jehovah and Satan standing at his right hand to be his adversary.

And Jehovah said to Satan, Jehovah rebuke you, Satan! Indeed, Jehovah, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?

Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments and was standing before the Angel.

And He answered and spoke to those standing before Him, saying, Remove the filthy garments from him. Then He said to him, See, I hereby make your iniquity pass from you and clothe you with stately robes.

And He said, Let them put a clean turban upon his head. And they put the clean turban upon his head and clothed him with garments while the Angel of Jehovah stood by.

And the Angel of Jehovah testified to Joshua, saying,

Thus says Jehovah of hosts, If you will walk in My ways and if you will keep My charge, then you will both judge My house and keep My courts, and I will grant you to walk among these standing here.

Hear then, Joshua the high priest, you and your fellows who sit before you — for they are men of symbol — for I am about to bring forth My servant, the shoot.

For here is the stone that I have set before Joshua — upon one stone are seven eyes. I will engrave its engraving, declares Jehovah of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.

In that day, declares Jehovah of hosts, each of you will invite his neighbor to come under the vine and under the fig tree."

Apply the same thing to chapter 4. Which of the 14 verses in chapter 4 necessitate that Zerubbabel cannot have been called by another name?

Joshua the high priest never physically stood before the Lord with Satan at his right hand. He was never there in front of the Lord, in dirty Burnt clothing, like a coal that was plucked out of a fire. He didn’t have a literal stone with seven eyes before him. Anyone who is reasonable and reading that would NOT think that is literal. However, even greater than our logic and reasoning is the explanation in Zechariah 3:8

‘Now listen, Joshua the high priest, you and your friends who are sitting in front of you— indeed they are men who are a symbol, for behold, I am going to bring in My servant the Branch.

Because it tells us that Joshua is a symbol or a sign, or a token of a future person.


Here is the second definition of the Hebrew word “mopheth” in Zechariah 3:8. It is from Bible hub this definition applies to Zechariah 3:8

2 sign or token of future event (compare אוֺת) 1 Kings 13:3 (twice in verse); 1 Kings 13:5; 2Chronicles 32:24,31; symbolic act Isaiah 20:3 ("" אות); as such the term is applied to persons Isaiah 8:18 ("" אות) Ezekiel 12:6,11; Ezekiel 24:24,27; compare׳אַנְשֵׁי מ Zechariah 3:8 men who serve as a symbol or sign. — Vb. used, of divine act, is נתן Exodus 7:9 etc.,שׂים Jeremiah 32:20; שׂים also of entrusting to human power Exodus 4:21, compare דִּבֶּר 1 Kings 13:3; of human agency עשׂה Exodus 4:21; Exodus 11:10, נתן 1 Kings 13:3,5.


Joshua is a symbol (mopheth) of a future person. Not only because the text shows that he is symbolic, but because it directly says he is a symbol in Zechariah 3:8


 

[oikonomia]

Joshua the high priest never physically stood before the Lord with Satan at his right hand.

Happygolucky?, First of all we do not know that for certain. We are all "before the Lord". Our whole lives are "before the Lord."
C'mon.

Not only so, but Satan is always trying to accuse us who belong to the Lord -all the time.
He is the accuser of the brothers who accuses them before God day and night.
Satan accuses us to God and turns around and accuses God to us.

Whether we are sitting, lying down, walking, etc. the life long battle of God's saints is to be protected from the accusation of Satan.
Now let's get serious here. In reality Joshua probably had unsymbolic dealings with confession and admission of his guilt before God.
And his dealings with God may have been communicated TO Zechariah by means of this vision.

It is not even that important. The TRUTH of the matter conveyed is what is important.
And Christ as the Angel of Jehovah as with Joshua so also with every believer, extends redeeming righteous TO that one.
He is qualified to do that.

Whether in actual space in some room this happened or not is important.
The truth of redeeming righteousness being bestowed upon guilty Joshua as well as guilty every other servant of God, is TRUTH.

And up to this point nothing about this HAS to mean Zeruabbabel could not be known by two names. There is simply no connection of the two matters yet.

He was never there in front of the Lord, in dirty Burnt clothing, like a coal that was plucked out of a fire.

This is missing the point like straining out a gnat yet swallowing a camel.
If you cannot measure the distance in feet and inches he was before the Angel of Jehovah, HE WAS BEFORE the Angel of Jehovah.
Don't look now but we also right now are before Christ too.

Again - Joshua being "BEFORE" the Angel of Jehovah OR Joshua being so many inches BEFORE the Angel of Jehovah has nothing to do
with Zerubabbel HAVING to have been known by N number of names, whether 1 or more than 1.

He didn’t have a literal stone with seven eyes before him. Anyone who is reasonable and reading that would NOT think that is literal. However, even greater than our logic and reasoning is the explanation in Zechariah 3:8

Sure, in time and space a stone with seven eyes of so much weight and so much volume and so much mass and size was not in some room. So what?

Now whether Jeshua was the what the seven eyed stoned means OR Zerubabbel is who the seven eyed stone means, NOTHING about that in EITHER case makes it unavoidable to surmise that Zerubbabel could not be referred to by another name.

For the record I believe the stone stands then for Zerubbabel and points also to the GREATER and ULTIMATE Zerubbabel - Jesus Christ.
He is the cornerstone of God's eternal building was cut out, engraved upon, and through the eternal Spirit offered Himself for our sins to remove the iniquity of transgressors in one day on Calvary.

The stone with seven eyes and the latter Lamb standing having freshly been slain with seven eyes BOTH finally mean the central Person of the Bible - the Son of God. We should not be destracted from this.

Nether is Jesus a little four legged animal in heaven with wool and seven actual horns and seven actual eyes,
Of course we are dealing with symbolism in both cases.

In either case - if the stone is or is not meaning Zerubabbel, nothing there insists that Zerubbabel could not be known by another name.
Neither does it prove that he HAS to have one. Either way it doesn't effect that issue.

‘Now listen, Joshua the high priest, you and your friends who are sitting in front of you— indeed they are men who are a symbol, for behold, I am going to bring in My servant the Branch.

Because it tells us that Joshua is a symbol or a sign, or a token of a future person.

I believe also that the vision extends to the future. God is way, way, WAY ahead of His people all the time.
From eternity to eternity He knows what is going to happen and what He will do as the operating Triune God for His eternal purpose.

God was behind the strength of Joshua.
God was behind the strength of Zerubbabel.
And even MORE God is not only the strength but the life and Person of Christ the greatest one central Person of the Bible.

Sure the vision spoke to that day and beyond to the future. We agree on this I do believe.
That this effects the number of names Zerubbabel may have been known by, I don't see as related.

Now you break into the Hebrew grammatical issues.
And I have little comment and do not purport to be fluent in reading and writing ancient Hebrew.

Here is the second definition of the Hebrew word “mopheth” in Zechariah 3:8. It is from Bible hub this definition applies to Zechariah 3:8

2 sign or token of future event (compare אוֺת) 1 Kings 13:3 (twice in verse); 1 Kings 13:5; 2Chronicles 32:24,31; symbolic act Isaiah 20:3 ("" אות); as such the term is applied to persons Isaiah 8:18 ("" אות) Ezekiel 12:6,11; Ezekiel 24:24,27; compare׳אַנְשֵׁי מ Zechariah 3:8 men who serve as a symbol or sign. — Vb. used, of divine act, is נתן Exodus 7:9 etc.,שׂים Jeremiah 32:20; שׂים also of entrusting to human power Exodus 4:21, compare דִּבֶּר 1 Kings 13:3; of human agency עשׂה Exodus 4:21; Exodus 11:10, נתן 1 Kings 13:3,5.

Joshua is a symbol (mopheth) of a future person. Not only because the text shows that he is symbolic, but because it directly says he is a symbol in Zechariah 3:8


Joshua and Zerubbabel being real people in history AND ALSO pre-figures of ONE wonderful person Christ is true.
So as Abel, Samuel, David, Solomon, Hezekiah and other great Old Testament people being pointers to the Ultimate One Christ, so these two - the priest Joshua and the governor Zerubbabel.

The grammatical analysis you offer doesn't insist Zerubbabel could not have been known by another name.
And it doesn't prove, imo, that he HAD to be known also by another name.

I'll tell you what. If anyone here comes to me and wants to read lots of reasons to believe Zerubbabel was not Shashbazzar, I'll send them to you.

 

[Happygolucky?]

believe the Branch is Zerubbabel who is a type of Christ the greater Branch and the greater Zerubbabel.

Nehemiah didn’t speak very highly of the governors who served before him. By implication this likely included Zerubbabel

Nehemiah 5:15

15But the previous governors who were before me [h]laid burdens on the people and took from them bread and wine besides forty shekels of silver; even their servants domineered the people. But I did not do so because of my fear of God.
Below is clearly evident that Joshua is symbolic of The Branch

Zechariah 6:11-13

They put a crown on Joshua, and say to him


New International Version
Tell him this is what the LORD Almighty says: ‘Here is the man whose name is the Branch, and he will branch out from his place and build the temple of the LORD.

New Living Translation
Tell him, ‘This is what the LORD of Heaven’s Armies says: Here is the man called the Branch. He will branch out from where he is and build the Temple of the LORD.

English Standard Version
And say to him, ‘Thus says the LORD of hosts, “Behold, the man whose name is the Branch: for he shall branch out from his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD.

Berean Standard Bible
And you are to tell him that this is what the LORD of Hosts says: ‘Here is a man whose name is the Branch, and He will branch out from His place and build the temple of the LORD.

King James Bible
And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:

New King James Version
Then speak to him, saying, ‘Thus says the LORD of hosts, saying: “Behold, the Man whose name is the BRANCH! From His place He shall branch out, And He shall build the temple of the LORD;

New American Standard Bible
Then say to him, ‘The LORD of armies says this: “Behold, there is a Man whose name is Branch, for He will branch out from where He is; and He will build the temple of the LORD.

NASB 1995
“Then say to him, ‘Thus says the LORD of hosts, “Behold, a man whose name is Branch, for He will branch out from where He is; and He will build the temple of the LORD.

NASB 1977
“Then say to him, ‘Thus says the LORD of hosts, “Behold, a man whose name is Branch, for He will branch out from where He is; and He will build the temple of the LORD.

Joshua, not Zerubbabel is the Branch

 

[Happygolucky?]

Happygolucky?, First of all we do not know that for certain. We are all "before the Lord". Our whole lives are "before the Lord."
C'mon.

Yes we do! Read Zechariah 3:8

This is missing the point like straining out a gnat yet swallowing a camel.
If you cannot measure the distance in feet and inches he was before the Angel of Jehovah, HE WAS BEFORE the Angel of Jehovah.
Don't look now but we also right now are before Christ too.

No, it proves is it symbolic. Because man Can Not see the LORD and live

Jehovah was there Zechariah 3:2 (in a vision)

Legacy Standard Bible
And Yahweh said to Satan, “Yahweh rebuke you, Satan! Indeed, Yahweh who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is this not a brand delivered from the fire?”

It is all symbolic Zechariah was shown a vision.

Now whether Jeshua was the what the seven eyed stoned means OR Zerubabbel is who the seven eyed stone means, NOTHING about that in EITHER case makes it unavoidable to surmise that Zerubbabel could not be referred to by another name.

Joshua is the BRANCH and the Cornerstone in Zechariah 3:9

Nether is Jesus a little four legged animal in heaven with wool and seven actual horns and seven actual eyes,
Of course we are dealing with symbolism in both cases.

Of course, it is symbolic just as Zechariah 3:8 says

(Click for Chapter)
New International Version
“’Listen, High Priest Joshua, you and your associates seated before you, who are men symbolic of things to come: I am going to bring my servant, the Branch.

New Living Translation
“Listen to me, O Jeshua the high priest, and all you other priests. You are symbols of things to come. Soon I am going to bring my servant, the Branch.

English Standard Version
Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, you and your friends who sit before you, for they are men who are a sign: behold, I will bring my servant the Branch.

Berean Standard Bible
Hear now, O high priest Joshua, you and your companions seated before you, who are indeed a sign. For behold, I am going to bring My servant, the Branch.

King James Bible
Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.

New King James Version
‘Hear, O Joshua, the high priest, You and your companions who sit before you, For they are a wondrous sign; For behold, I am bringing forth My Servant the BRANCH.

New American Standard Bible
Now listen, Joshua, you high priest, you and your friends who are sitting in front of you—indeed they are men who are a sign: for behold, I am going to bring in My servant the Branch.

NASB 1995
‘Now listen, Joshua the high priest, you and your friends who are sitting in front of you— indeed they are men who are a symbol, for behold, I am going to bring in My servant the Branch.

 

[oikonomia]

Nehemiah didn’t speak very highly of the governors who served before him. By implication this likely included Zerubbabel

Nehemiah 5:15

Happygolucky? It is one of the main themes of the recovery books about the return from Babylon, that they were not all that good.
They returned to the land.
But God told them that they should return to HIM.

Return to Me and I will return to you.
The initially had their spirits stirred up to return - a REMNANT - a small minority.
Some pettered out. Some got distracted with just taking care of THEIR stuff and not the interests of God.

Joshua - not ALL that good.
Zerubbabel - also not ALL that consistent.

They needed the prophets to come and encourage them to keep on keeping on.
This is reality. This is typical life of a saint.

The credit goes to the grace of God rather than to these people themselves.
I mean, what point is there to saying some governors were not spoken to highly of?

You and I cannot always be spoken too highly of either. And we should love the Lord. Right?

15But the previous governors who were before me [h]laid burdens on the people and took from them bread and wine besides forty shekels of silver; even their servants domineered the people. But I did not do so because of my fear of God.
Below is clearly evident that Joshua is symbolic of The Branch

Zechariah 6:11-13

They put a crown on Joshua, and say to him


New International Version
Tell him this is what the LORD Almighty says: ‘Here is the man whose name is the Branch, and he will branch out from his place and build the temple of the LORD.

New Living Translation
Tell him, ‘This is what the LORD of Heaven’s Armies says: Here is the man called the Branch. He will branch out from where he is and build the Temple of the LORD.

English Standard Version
And say to him, ‘Thus says the LORD of hosts, “Behold, the man whose name is the Branch: for he shall branch out from his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD.

. . .

Joshua, not Zerubbabel is the Branch

In the geneology of Jesus Christ "the son of David, the son of Abraham" (Matt. 1:1) which person is mentioned , Joshua or Zerubbabel?

Hint: " And Josiah begot Jeconiah and his brothers at the time of the deportation to Babylon. After the deportation to Babylon, Jeconiah begot Salathiel, and Salathiel begot ZERUBBABEL . . . " (vs.11,12)

Matthew is showing the branches (so to speak) coming from David in the eyes of God.
Where is Joshua the priest from the book of Zechariah ?

 

[Happygolucky?]

In the geneology of Jesus Christ "the son of David, the son of Abraham" (Matt. 1:1) which person is mentioned , Joshua or Zerubbabel?

Hint: " And Josiah begot Jeconiah and his brothers at the time of the deportation to Babylon. After the deportation to Babylon, Jeconiah begot Salathiel, and Salathiel begot ZERUBBABEL . . . " (vs.11,12

You are looking at the physical and not the spiritual.

Zerubbabel was cut off from the throne and living under the curse of his grandfather Jeconiah.

Jeremiah 22:24-29

n like a woman in childbirth!
24“As I live,” declares the LORD, “even if [g]Coniah the son of Jehoiakim king of Judah were a signet ring on My right hand, yet I would pull [h]you off; 25and I will hand you over to those who are seeking your life, yes, to those of whom you are frightened, that is, to Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon and the Chaldeans. 26I will hurl you and your mother who gave birth to you into another country where you were not born, and there you will die. 27But as for the land to which they long to return, they will not return to it.

28“Is this man Coniah a despised, shattered jar?
Or is he an undesirable vessel?
Why have he and his descendants been hurled out
And cast into a land that they had not known?
29“O land, land, land,
Hear the word of the LORD! 30This is what the LORD says:
‘Write this man down as childless,
A man who will not prosper in his days;
For no man among his descendants will prosper
Sitting on the throne of David
Or ruling again in Judah.’”


The physical Zerubbabel has been cut off from the line of royalty.

And don’t mention Haggai 2:20-23 because that is a message to the Zerubbabel who is grafted in as the son of Shealtiel. Just Like Zechariah 4, it has nothing to do with the Zerubbabel of that era.



I have shown you a scripture that clearly identifies Joshua as a symbol of the Branch

Show me a verse where Zerubbabel is identified as the Branch

 

[Happygolucky?]

So why is this significant that God has not yet shaken the cosmos?
I will see if you indicate below.

Huh? Are you serious? Because if the Lord hasn’t shaken both The heavens and the earth, Hebrews 12:25-27 . then obviously it is not the Zerubbabel of the second temple era that this message is directed towards. That Zerubbabel is not here anymore

It is an unfulfilled prophecy, and “on that day” the Lord will make him (the future Zerubbabel) like the signet of the Lord.

fail to see how Hebrews 12:26 means that the prophet Haggai did not utter something from Jehovah God about the Zerrubabel THEN living.

Where are you getting that from. I never said anything like that? Obviously, the Lord spoke through the prophets to Zerubbabel but that Zerubbabel isn’t here anymore. And the event is unfulfilled

And though the shaking of the heavens and the earth are promised through Haggai, MAJOR prophetic events happened before, and are continuing NOW before this shaking. Insisting that this shaking was THE one and only "next major prophetic event" is not ri

Please Don’t misrepresent what I’m saying. I said Haggai 2:21-23 is the next major prophetic event. I said nothing less and nothing more. That is twice that I have brought this to light. But there have been more than 2. Again, I’m not sure if you’re doing this on purpose, or just not reading what I’ve written

Again, That is the next major prophetic event. It is soon to unfold, look at the wars looming. After that, the ministry of the 2 witnesses begin.

Jesus is the King and High Priest not the “prince (governor) of Judah”

 

[oikonomia]

You are looking at the physical and not the spiritual.

I am showing you that the Branch was Zerubbabel and finally the end of that genelogy - Jesus (descendent of David in spite of a few seeming obstacles along the way down the line).

And you are now about to go into another discussion about the descendents of Jeconiah not being allowed
to sit on the throne of David.

And because I already know about that anomaly and how God worked towards "son of David" in spite the Jeconiah issue I will not run after this red herring. The prophecy of Jeremiah 22:24-29 is well known by many readers of Matthew.

I don't think I want to argue more with you about Zerubbabel.
I intend with someone, to move beyond this argument now.

 

[Happygolucky?]

I don't think I want to argue more with you about Zerubbabel.

Ok fine, but don’t you mean Sheshbazzar? Ha ha Just joking!

 

[oikonomia]

( I think I will enlarge the font size to see better)

The link between the Lamb with seven eyes who are the seven Spirits of God and the stone with seven eyes who are the eyes of Jehovah is significant.

In both cases the recovery of the damaged temple of God is the common theme.
In the Old Testament the climax of God's work is His finally filling the temple with His glory.

In the climax of history the final consummation is God filling the living temple of the church with His glory.
Satan is absolutely opposed to God achieving this. Both in the OT and in the NT God's enemy works to destroy that temple.

The temple with God living in it in the book of Revelation is first the seve lampstands of the seven (representative) local churches. The temple at the close of the book is the golden transparent mountain city New Jerusalem as the universal lampstand (so to speak).

Now a brief word about the priesthood and the kingship.

I have learned that the priesthood and the kingship are also another way of expressing the purpose for which God created man in the first place:
God created man for IMAGE and DOMINION.

God created man to express God - conveying God and communicating God - the image of God.
God created man to exercise dominion over God's creation as a deputy authririty - having dominion.

"And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of heaven and over the cattle and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth. And God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them, And God blesed them; and God said to them, Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the eas and over the birds of heaven and oer everu ;ombmg thing that moves upon the earth." (Gen. 1:26-27)

Another way of saying image and dominion is the priesthood and the kingship.
These two functions are needed for the completion of God's building, His dwelling place.

So these two great ordained functions for man by God are brought together in relation to the kingdom - the city, and the temple in the city of God.

"Indeed, it is he [the Shoot] who will build the temple of Jehovah; and he will bear the majesty and will sit and rule on his throne; and he will be a priest on his throne and the counsel of peace will be between the two of them." (Zech. 6:13)

The counsel of peace will be the result of the coordination of the priesthood and the kingship.

The man and people who can complete the house of God must have the two ministries - the priesthood and the kingship.
They must bear the image of God and exercise the authority of God.

Image and dominion mean priesthood and kingship.
And Christ is the unique Priest who is King as the Leader of this divinized humanity.

 

[oikonomia]

What a connection there is between Revelation and Zechariah.

The eyes of Jehovah run to and fro on the earth to see who is willing to bring glory ot Him through cooperation.
The eyes of the Lamb (Jehovah become a man) do the same.

In Zechariah the lampstand is the nation Israel.
In Revelation the lampstands are the seven representative local churches.

 

[oikonomia]

Now someone can perhaps answer a question I have.

In Zechariah why is the prophet rather slow to grasp the meaning of the visions?

"Then the angel who spoke with me returned and roused me as a man is roused from his sleep." (Zech. 4:1)

"And I answered and spoke to the angel who spoke with me, saying, What are these, sir?
And the angel who spoke with me answred and said to me, Do you not knw what these are? And I said, No sir?" (vs. 4,5)

And again in verse 11-13.

"Then I answered and said to him, What are these two olive branches that are by the side of the two golden spouts, which empty the gold from themselves; And he spoke to me, saying, Do you not know what these are? And I said, No sir."

Zechariah seems rather drowsy and dull. He seems not to clear about what God is showing him.
He seems not completely alert and a bit befuddled as to the visions. Why?
What do you all think is the meaning of this?

How do you think it relates, if it does, to anything in the book of Revelation?

 

[Happygolucky?]

What a connection there is between Revelation and Zechariah.

Sir, on one hand you say you don’t want to talk about Zerubbabel, then on the other hand you use the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel

Zechariah 4:4-6

4Then I said to the angel who was speaking with me, saying, “What are these, my lord?” 5So the angel who was speaking with me answered and said to me, “Do you not know what these are?” And I said, “No, my lord.” 6Then he said to me, “This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel, saying, ‘Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,’ says the LORD of armies.


The Lampstand and items are the word of the Lord to absolutely no one else besides him.

He is a mopheth in Zechariah 4 and Haggai 2

He is sitting in front of Joshua in Zechariah 3:8

8Now listen, Joshua, you high priest, you and your friends—— (hi I’m Zerubbabel and I’m here)——-
who are sitting in front of you—indeed they are men who are a sign: —-(mopheth)—-for behold, I am going to bring in My servant the [d]Branch

New International Version
“’Listen, High Priest Joshua, you and your associates seated before you, who are men symbolic of things to come: I am going to bring my servant, the Branch.



That is why 2 verses later the same prophet in the same encounter with the same angel is roused from a sleep like state to this and it directed to the mopheth Zerubbabel

Zechariah 4:1-4

1Then the angel who had been speaking with me returned and woke me, like a person who is awakened from his sleep. 2And he said to me, “What do you see?” And I said, “I see, and behold, a lampstand all of gold with its bowl on the top of it, and its seven lamps on it with seven [a]spouts belonging to each of the lamps which are on the top of it; 3also two olive trees by it, one on the right side of the bowl and the other on its left side.”

The lampstand ,7 lamps and olive branches is the message to Zerubbabel. You can’t separate him from his message.

Zechariah 4:6

In Zechariah why is the prophet rather slow to grasp the meaning of the visions?

If I were Zechariah and I saw that I wouldn’t know what it is. I don’t think anyone would. Angels have access to the heavenly realm and have a higher level of consciousness than humans. I’m surprised he expected Zechariah to know. What it meant luckily he interpreted it in.

Zechariah 4:6

How do you think it relates, if it does, to anything in the book of Revelation?

Yes these are the 2 Lampstands and 2 olives from Revelation 11:4. The 2 sons of oil.

Zechariah 4:12-14

12 And I answered the second time and said unto him, What are the two olive-branches which are beside the two golden tubes that empty the gold out of themselves?
13 And he spoke to me, saying, Knowest thou not what these are? And I said, No, my lord.
14 And he said, These are the two sons of oil, that stand before the Lord of the whole earth.

Revelation 11:4

4These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.

The 7 lamps are the 7 Spirits of the Lord, same as the 7 Eyes

The vision is this is the word of the LORD to mopheth Zerubbabel who is the (Lampstand and olive branch) of the vision. “Not by might nor by power but By My Spirit” (My 7 Lamps) to the Lampstand and olive branch (Zerubbabel).

It is Zerubbabel’s message, it needs to stay with him

 

[Happygolucky?]

Hint: " And Josiah begot Jeconiah and his brothers at the time of the deportation to Babylon. After the deportation to Babylon, Jeconiah begot Salathiel, and Salathiel begot ZERUBBABEL . . . " (vs.11,12)

You do realize Jesus was not the biological son of Joseph?

12After the deportation to Babylon: Jeconiah fathered [l]Shealtiel, and Shealtiel fathered Zerubbabel. 13Zerubbabel fathered [m]Abihud, Abihud fathered Eliakim, and Eliakim fathered Azor. 14Azor fathered Zadok, Zadok fathered Achim, and Achim fathered Eliud. 15Eliud fathered Eleazar, Eleazar fathered Matthan, and Matthan fathered Jacob.

16Jacob fathered Joseph the husband of Mary, by whom Jesus was born, who is called the [n]Messiah.


Jacob fathered Joseph to whom Jesus had no biological relation.

We need to know for sure which is Mary’s line

 

[oikonomia]

Sir, on one hand you say you don’t want to talk about Zerubbabel, then on the other hand you use the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel

Excuse me. I said that I did not want to argue further with you about Zerubbabel's identity.

The debate on the identity of this man with your objections has run its course for me.

 

[oikonomia]

You do realize Jesus was not the biological son of Joseph?

Yes.