Revelation Chapter One - The Message, the Church, the Seven Golden Candlesticks, The Seven Churches

[Happygolucky?]

Excuse me. I said that I did not want to argue further with you about Zerubbabel's identity.

The debate on the identity of this man with your objections has run its course for me.

My apologies sir, it said “anyone” so I thought that included me. Now I understand that you don’t want me to address you in any way shape or form concerning this subject. I understand and apologize.

 

[oikonomia]

My apologies sir, it said “anyone” so I thought that included me. Now I understand that you don’t want me to address you in any way shape or form concerning this subject. I understand and apologize.

All I said was that I did not wish to argue further about Zerubbabel / Shashbazzar/ the Branch - who was that with you.
You have heard the expression "I rest my case."

I did not say do not any longer address me in any way shape form, certainly on the subject matter of this thread.

I will go thorugh your comment about the heaveny knowlede again in due time.
I am kind of pre-occupied at this time.

 

[Happygolucky?]

All I said was that I did not wish to argue further about Zerubbabel / Shashbazzar/ the Branch - who was that with you.
You have heard the expression "I rest my case."

I did not say do not any longer address me in any way shape form, certainly on the subject matter of this thread.

I will go thorugh your comment about the heaveny knowlede again in due time.
I am kind of pre-occupied at this time.

Yes sir, I understand. I clicked on your profile and realized that I should be careful to be very respectful towards you. I hope nothing I have said has offended you in anyway. It certainly wasn’t my intent.

 

[oikonomia]

Yes sir, I understand. I clicked on your profile and realized that I should be careful to be very respectful towards you. I hope nothing I have said has offended you in anyway. It certainly wasn’t my intent.

No you have not dissed me. I am not thin skinned.
Now, you can mention Zerubbabel to me. It is understood that you have a position and I have one which is different.

That is understood by at least us two. So you and I will just have to speai in some "matter-of-fact" tone.

If debate is more stimulating, which sometimes it is, you DID say awhile back that the kingdom of priests was different from
the ruling ones actually being kings.

Are you sure you wish to stand by that?

 

[Happygolucky?]

It my position that there in one King and High Priest and that is Jesus.

The LORD said HE would make the nation of Israel a “Kingdom of Priests” back in Exodus 19:6 This was under the physical Sinai covenant.

Now He has said He will make us a Kingdom and priests under the new covenant the heavenly Zion covenant

Revelation 5:10

We are a kingdom and priests but not kings. Only 1 King. But there will be princes, or judges. Well at least a “prince of Judah” “you know who”

The KJV incorrectly says “kings”
But it should be “kingdom” here’s some different translations.


New International Version
You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth.”

New Living Translation
And you have caused them to become a Kingdom of priests for our God. And they will reign on the earth.”

English Standard Version
and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth.”

Berean Standard Bible
You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign upon the earth.”

Berean Literal Bible
and You have made them a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."



New American Standard Bible
You have made them into a kingdom and priests to our God, and they will reign upon the earth.”


1 Peter 2:9

9But you are A CHOSEN PEOPLE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR GOD’S OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

I believe there is only 1 King in the kingdom.

1 Samuel 8:6–7

6But the matter was [a]displeasing in the sight of Samuel when they said, “Give us a king to judge us.” And Samuel prayed to the LORD. 7And the LORD said to Samuel, “Listen to the voice of the people regarding all that they say to you, because they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me from being King over them.

In the time of the Judges and before the Lord was King Over Israel. And only HE was king

Isaiah 1:25-26

And avenge Myself on My enemies.
25“I will also turn My hand against you,
And smelt away your impurities as with lye;
And I will remove all your slag.
26“Then I will restore your judges as at first,
And your counselors as at the beginning;
After that you will be called the city of righteousness,
A faithful city.”

the above has not been fulfilled

 

[parousia70]

Satan is always trying to accuse us who belong to the Lord -all the time.
He is the accuser of the brothers who accuses them before God day and night.
Satan accuses us to God and turns around and accuses God to us.

Satan WAS the accuser of the brethren during the Old Testament era. It was his job. How did he conduct his role? Job 1 and 2 show us how. Satan would argue the case against God's people based on the law that once held God's people under His judgment. But Christ came and REMOVED sin and the Law of Moses which separated us from Jehovah and then reconciled us to himself and made us the manifested sons and daughters of God. We are no longer slaves with are sins held against us -- we are sons and daughters of the Most High God and the Judge has declared us "NOT GUILTY" and dismissed satan's case forever.

Satan is most certainly NOT accusing any of the brothers any more. His ministry as the O.T. accuser of the saints came to an end when Christ stripped him of all authority and granted righteousness by faith to all the saints. Revelation 12:10-11 tells how the blood of the Lamb has granted this victory, and is tied to Paul's teaching in Romans:

Rom 8:30-31,33
Whom he foreordained, them he also called. Whom he called, them he also justified. Whom he justified, them he also glorified. What then will we say about these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?... Who could bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, yes rather, who was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.

This passage shows how satan's O.T. role as accuser of the brethren (see Job 1 and 2; Rev 12:10-11) is now over. He simply can make no accusation, for the Judge has fully pardoned all his people based upon the blood of His Sacrificial Lamb, Jesus.

So we see here how Jesus Christ argued our case to the Father based on His own blood and we have been declared JUSTIFIED. Case dismissed. If the Judge himself has pardoned and justified then no more accusations can be brought. The Kingdom of God does not allow double jeopardy. We are fully pardoned and God has justified his people and made them sons and daughters. Case dismissed. We are free. We are now no longer slaves under the curse but are the family of God.

You are the child of God oikonomia. You are not accused by anyone.

QUESTION: "If God is for us,who can be against us? ... Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect?"

ANSWER: No one. You have been justified by the Judge Himself.

Case dismissed. The accuser of the brethren has been cast down due to Christ's salvation.

 

[oikonomia]

Satan WAS the accuser of the brethren during the Old Testament era.

He still does the same thing in the New Testament age.
Why do you think this activity against the saints ceased?

It was his job. How did he conduct his role? Job 1 and 2 show us how. Satan would argue the case against God's people based on the law that once held God's people under His judgment. But Christ came and REMOVED sin and the Law of Moses which separated us from Jehovah and then reconciled us to himself and made us the manifested sons and daughters of God. We are no longer slaves with are sins held against us -- we are sons and daughters of the Most High God and the Judge has declared us "NOT GUILTY" and dismissed satan's case forever.

I don't know why you do not realize the mouth of the accuser still needs to be shut as he whispers - "You have no right to be a Christian, Why look at how you behaved just yesterday."

No parousua70. The effectiveness of Christ's redemption is wonderful. But His redemption did not automatically stop Satan from being a roaring lion seeking whom he may still devour. (1 Peter 5:8)

Paul is in the new covenant age and he tells the Corinthian church Satan's schemes. (2 Cor. 2:11)

Amplified Bible
to keep Satan from taking advantage of us; for we are not ignorant of his schemes.

The putting on of the whole armor of God is the defensive and offensive response of Christians in this age toward this persistent enemy.

Put on the whole armor of God that you may be able to stand against the stratagems of the devil,
For our wrestling is not against blood and flesh but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the world-rulers of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenlies.

Therefore take up the whole armor of God that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having girded your loins with truth and having put on the breastplate of righteousness
And having shod your feet with the firm foundation of the gospel of peace;

Besides all these, having taken up the shield of faith, with which you will be able to quench all the flaming darts of the evil one. And receive the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which Spirit is the word of God, (Eph. 6:11-17)

The heart needs protection.
The mind needs protection.
Satan's fiery darts against new testament saints include temptations, accusations, slanders, etc,

We overcome him NOW by the blood of the Lamb.
And one of the VERY FIRST things we must teach new believers is about the power of the blood of Jesus.
They must confess sins which invariably will happen as they grow in grace.
And when they have a failure Satan will ACCUSE.
And along with our confession the nagging accusation of Satan is SILENCED by our standing on the power of the blood of Christ.

Satan is most certainly NOT accusing any of the brothers any more.

That is not true at all.
We overcome him NOW by the blood of the Lamb. (Revelation 12:10,11)

And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night.
And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they loved not their soul-life even unto death.

His ministry as the O.T. accuser of the saints came to an end when Christ stripped him of all authority and granted righteousness by faith to all the saints. Revelation 12:10-11 tells how the blood of the Lamb has granted this victory, and is tied to Paul's teaching in Romans:

You are agreeing with me now. And more importantly you are agreeing with the Bible.
We overcome Satan's nagging accusation by the blood of Christ.

The victory is ours for the taking in the church age, in the new covenant age.
We AFFIRM the present day effectiveness of the redemption of Christ and utilize it to shut the accuser's mouth.

Rom 8:30-31,33
Whom he foreordained, them he also called. Whom he called, them he also justified. Whom he justified, them he also glorified. What then will we say about these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?... Who could bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, yes rather, who was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.

That is precious and wonderful. But it tells of Christ's victory. It does not say God's enemy is not still up to his old schemes to defeat the saints.

It is one thing to rejoice in the prevailing redemption of Christ.
It is another to assume foolishly that Satan is not still the slanderer, accuser, adversary, and continual enemy of God.

You may think I am advertizing the presteige of the Devil. I certainly am not.
I am all with you that "Who is he who brings a charge against God's chosen ones?"

But the deveil TRIES to bring a charge, And that is one reason why the very proclamations of Romans 8:30-31,33 are made. The proclamation is made not because Satan no longer opposes the saints, but because he still does.

No one shall bring an effective charge against the more than conquerors in Christ.
It does not say that no one will not TRY to.

This passage shows how satan's O.T. role as accuser of the brethren (see Job 1 and 2; Rev 12:10-11) is now over. He simply can make no accusation, for the Judge has fully pardoned all his people based upon the blood of His Sacrificial Lamb, Jesus.

No, this activity is still going on. But we have the whole armor of God and the atomic weapon against him of the blood of Jesus.

If you read the passage with more care you will see that the casting down of Satan from his ability to appear before God to accuse is the very CAUSE of the great tribulastion. The termination of his accusing by the arrival of the raptured overcomers is the catalyst resulting in Satan coming down to be ever after LIMITED to the earth. And his coming down with this new limitation causes the three and one half year great tribulation to commence.

And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night.

And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they loved not their soul-life even unto death.

Therefore be glad, O heavens and those who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea because the devil has come down to you and has great rage, knowing that he has only a short time.

And when the dragon saw that he was cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who brought forth the man-child. And to the woman there were given the two wings of the great eagle that she might fly into the wilderness into her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time from the face of the serpent." (Rev.12:10-14)

The time and times and half a time as you may know is 1 year + 2 years + 1/2 year. That is the accuser comes down and there are three and one half years left until the changing to the millennial age.

But I DO really understand what you are trying to emphasize - that is the great victory we have in Christ's redemptionn. And on that point I very much am with you.

So we see here how Jesus Christ argued our case to the Father based on His own blood and we have been declared JUSTIFIED. Case dismissed. If the Judge himself has pardoned and justified then no more accusations can be brought. The Kingdom of God does not allow double jeopardy. We are fully pardoned and God has justified his people and made them sons and daughters. Case dismissed. We are free. We are now no longer slaves under the curse but are the family of God.

You are the child of God oikonomia. You are not accused by anyone.

QUESTION: "If God is for us,who can be against us? ... Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect?"

ANSWER: No one. You have been justified by the Judge Himself.

Case dismissed. The accuser of the brethren has been cast down due to Christ's salvation.

So we have the means to OVERCOME. But as you can see in Revelation 12 the overcomers are part of the larger weaker vessel of the Woman who bears him. They are defeated. They are weaker not because of defect in Christ's work but in their weakness to apply His victory. The Bright Women is the weaker vessel and within her and a part of her is a stronger part a Manchild. These are the overcomers who are raptured for there is a partial rapture of those not defeated in their daily spiritual warfare.

This is the story of the whole Bible - there is a majority of weaker ones and a remnant of stronger component who prevail in the spiritual warfare - like a Gideon's small army fighting through for the sake of the whole nation.

This is the sad fact of life. You are speaking saying "We all should overcome". And you are exactly 100% right. But in church history what OUGHT to be and what HAPPENS are not always the same thing.

' And you must see the overcomers who are raptured leaving the rest of the children on the earth to be persecuted by the serpent are like Gideon's remnant army of 300. For the sake of the WHOLE a remnant must break through.

Yout post to me here is just saying that you and you wish myself also would not be defeated but OVERCOME.
I accept that with a hearty Amen for both of us and for all believers.
But this is what OUGHT to be. What WILL be is another matter.

So thankyou for the word of encouragemt. Do not take it so far that you teach Satan is not still actively countering God's people.

Here is a song I wrote on Revelation 12:10,11

 

[claninja]

No, this activity is still going on. But we have the whole armor of God and the atomic weapon against him of the blood of Jesus.

I would disagree. When Christ ascended, “Satan” was completely demoted from his position as the accuser. He can no longer accuse the saints before God. (Revelation 12, Romans 8:33)

Now, that’s not say that “Satan” doesn’t persecute the saints following his demotion.

 

[oikonomia]

I would disagree. When Christ ascended, “Satan” was completely demoted from his position as the accuser. He can no longer accuse the saints before God. (Revelation 12, Romans 8:33)

Now, that’s not say that “Satan” doesn’t persecute the saints following his demotion.

I understand. May it be so for you if you believe this. Amen.

Please enjoy another song for the praise of Romans 8.

 

[oikonomia]

It my position that there in one King and High Priest and that is Jesus.

And when Jesus in His parable of the faithful servants who are rewaerd with their master's return -

"And the first appeared, saying, Master, your mina has gained ten minas.
And he said to this one, Well done, good slave, Because you have become faithful in the least, have authority over ten cities.
And the second one came, saying, Your mina, master, has made five minas. And he said to this one as well, And you, be over five cities." (Luke 19:16-19)

You do not believe that Christ will assign over some faithful servants respectively ten cities and five cities?

The LORD said HE would make the nation of Israel a “Kingdom of Priests” back in Exodus 19:6 This was under the physical Sinai covenant.

This is true. But because the majority failed he singled out the Levites to be priests.
Then in the New Testament there is the priesthood of all the believers.
As above the faithful will be rewarded to reign with Him. This is conditional upon Christ faithfulness to reward the overcomers.

"If we endure, we will also REIGN with Him" (2 Timothy 2:11)

Since some WILL reign with Him as co-kings what He does over the nations they too accompany Him.

1.) Christ reigns - "And out of His mouth proceeds a sharp sword, that with it He might smite the nations; and He will shepherd them with an iron rod," (Rev. 19:15a)

2.) Christ's rewarded saints co-reign - "And he who overcomes, and he who keeps My works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations, And he will shepherd them with an iron rod as vessels of pottery are broken in pieces as I also have received from My Father." (Rev. 2:26,27)

He shepherds the nations with an iron rod of authority.
The overcomers also shepherd the nations as co-kings.

Now He has said He will make us a Kingdom and priests under the new covenant the heavenly Zion covenant

Revelation 5:10

We are a kingdom and priests but not kings. Only 1 King. But there will be princes, or judges. Well at least a “prince of Judah” “you know who”

I will not quival over whether the overcomers so rewarded are "co-princes" or "co-kings."

The fact of the matter is that AS He sat down upon His Father's throne He likewise will grant some so rewarded to sit down with Him on His throne. Now I do not mean a large group of people on one chair. But the word picture means that as He reigns with authority from a throne He also will grant the overcomers to do so likewise as Himself.

"He who overcomes, to him I will give to it with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne." (Rev. 3:21)

"If we endure, we will also REIGN with Him" (2 Timothy 2:11) means that given the qualifying condition met the rewarded saints will reign with Christ.

This is part of being co-heirs with Christ as His children at the appointed time.

"The Spirit Himself witnesses with our spirit that we are the children of God. And if children heirs also; heirs of God and joint heirs of Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him that we may also be glorified with Him. (Rom. 8:16,17)

The growth of the divine life into maturity will manifest the sons of God conformed to the image of the Firstborn Son.

"For the anxious watching of the creation eagerly expects the revelation of the sons of God." (Rom. 8:19)
"Because whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Sonm that He should be the Firstborn among many brothers." (Rom. 8:29)

The position of co-heirs, co-kings, and many sons conformed to be like the Firstborn Son is the result of the maturity of divine life growing in them. It is a matter of the result of the growth of divine life unto maturity in the church.

This REWARD for timely maturity is granted to those who were not defeated but overcame through patience and endurance.
And when the Lord returns at the end of the church age some will enter into the joy of the Lord. They were faitfhul over a few things and He will grant them to be over many things of His possessions.

"Now after a long time the lord of those slaves comes and settles accounts with them, And he who received the five talents came and broght another five talents, saying, Lord, you delivered to me five talents; behold. I have gained another five talents. His lord said to him, Well done, good and faithful slave; you were faithful over a few things, I will set you over many things; enter into the joy of your lord. And he also who received the two talents came and said, Lord, you delivered to me two talents; behold, I have gained another two talents, His lord said to him, Well done, good and fairthful slavel you were faithful over a few things, I will set you over many things; enter into the joy of your lord." (MAtt. 25:20-23).

Christ possessions will be the earth and the cities which He will eatablish, recover, minister to during the millennial kingdom.
So as He reigns from Jerusalem as King of kings, His co-kings enter into His joy to be faithfully over His possessions.

This is conditional upon our being faithful over a few things in the Christian life. Faithfulness with patience will result in Him awarding the overcomers to be over His possessions.

"Blessed is that slave whom his master when he comes shall find so doing, Truly I say to you, that he will set him over all his possessions." (Matt. 24:46,47)

 

[Happygolucky?]

You do not believe that Christ will assign over some faithful servants respectively ten cities and five cities?

Yes I do, but not as kings. As rulers (judges and counselors) over cities yes. The disciples were looking for the restoration of the kingdom of Israel. See Acts 1:6-7

6So, when they had come together, they began asking Him, saying, “Lord, is it at this time that You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?” 7But He said to them, “It is not for you to know periods of time or appointed times which the Father has set by His own authority;

By implication a kingdom has 1 King. A “restoration” implies a “turning back” to The way things were. The way things were, is that God was King over Israel and judges and counselors RULED over the people under the KIng. The purification below indicates the restoration of the hearts of the “sons back to the Fathers”.

Again Isaiah 1:25-26

And avenge Myself on My enemies.
25“I will also turn My hand against you,
And smelt away your impurities as with lye;
And I will remove all your slag.
26“Then I will restore your judges as at first,
And your counselors as at the beginning;
After that you will be called the city of righteousness,
A faithful city.”

He says He will restore the judges as at the first and counselors as at the beginning. This has not occurred. That is the restoration of the kingdom.

Christ's rewarded saints co-reign - "And he who overcomes, and he who keeps My works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations, And he will shepherd them with an iron rod as vessels of pottery are broken in pieces as I also have received from My Father." (Rev. 2:26,27)

He shepherds the nations with an iron rod of authority.
The overcomers also shepherd the nations as co-kings.

Of course, this is a quote of Psalms 2:7-8

7“I will announce the [d]decree of the LORD:
He said to Me, ‘You are My Son,
Today I have fathered You.
8‘Ask it of Me, and I will certainly give the [e]nations as Your inheritance,
And the ends of the earth as Your possession.
9‘You shall [f]break them with a [g]rod of iron,
You shall shatter them like [h]earthenware.’”

And so Revelation 2 is at least, partially the proclamation of that. It is the Decree of the Father to the Son. And we will rule and reign but after the restoration (turning back) under the hierarchy of former times, but in the spiritual sense. Giving “authority over the nations” does not necessarily denote “kingship”, it only signifies being at a higher level of authority, than that of the nations. This will be the kingdom Under the new heavenly Zion covenant, not the physical Sinai covenant. But the physical kingdom was a type and shadow of the Kingdom to come. Jesus- A King and High Priest, Prince(s), Judges and counselors… a kingdom and priests. Just as the physical tabernacle was a type and shadow of the Heavenly, Hebrews 8 and 9. What it boils down to, is that in a kingdom there can only be one King. That is really the definition of a kingdom.

When the disciples asked Jesus about restoring (Turing back to the way it was) the kingdom, Jesus didn’t correct them, and say the kingdom wont be restored. Acts 1:6-7 He simply answers “it’s not the time for you to know when”

Strong's Greek: 600. ἀποκαθίστημι (apokathistémi) -- to restore, give back

biblehub.com

To restore ^^^^^^^^

Yes, we are joint heirs with Christ. But He gets the portion of the First Born and much more. David had many sons but only Solomon was the heir to the throne. All the while, David still had many heirs, only one was king.

 

[oikonomia]

I would disagree. When Christ ascended, “Satan” was completely demoted from his position as the accuser. He can no longer accuse the saints before God. (Revelation 12, Romans 8:33)

Now, that’s not say that “Satan” doesn’t persecute the saints following his demotion.

It is an interesting viewpoint that I have not heard before.
We certainly should believe and stand upon Christ's victory.
God's enemy does not want us to do that or even know that. I am reluctant to discouage Christians from declaring his defeat and Christ's victory in any way.

The advasary knows better than the saints sometimes that they will be his executioners to carry out God's sentence that he go to eternal perdition. Some of us see Satan being put down in successive steps - down - down - down until finally into the lake of fire. He is crushed eventually not only under the Head of the church's feet but the church's feet as well.

"Now the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you." (Rom. 16:20)

For the church has no victory of her own based upon her own merit.

Let me ask you this.
Who do you think is being referred to by the plural pronouns "them" and "they" and "their" in Revelation 12:10,11?

"And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night. And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they loved not their soul-life even unto death."

 

[Timtofly]

We don’t know if Christ resurrected body is flesh and bone without blood. All we know is what is says in 1 Corinthians 15:50 that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven. So that means flesh also.

50 “Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.”

There is a physical body in Paradise. Jesus has a physical body. All in Paradise have a physical body.

That it is physical is not the point. It is Adam's dead corruptible flesh that cannot enter Paradise. God's permanent incorruptible physical body is what they are given to physically enter physical Paradise.

That is what Paul is declaring. You have to shed Adam's body, and take on God's permanent body, God original created Adam with. The instant Adam disobeyed, he was given a physical body of death. Hence the term mortal. He lost God's permanent incorruptible physical body, because he disobeyed, and died both physically and spiritually. 2 Corinthians 5:1

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

Paul is comparing the temporal dead body to God's permanent living body. Both are still flesh and blood. Adam and Eve lived for years in the Garden in God's permanent incorruptible physical body. There was no death, decay, sickness, and a deteriorating body.

 

[oikonomia]

I would disagree. When Christ ascended, “Satan” was completely demoted from his position as the accuser. He can no longer accuse the saints before God. (Revelation 12, Romans 8:33)

Now, that’s not say that “Satan” doesn’t persecute the saints following his demotion.

Who do you think the plural pronouns refer to in Revelation 12:10,11?


Who do you think is being referred to by the plural pronouns "them" and "they" and "their" in Revelation 12:10,11?

"And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night. And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they loved not their soul-life even unto death."

I believe they refer to someones in the chapter.
Who it be?

1.) It could not be the angels. The good angels are sinless and do not overcome by the blood of Christ.

2.) It could not be the saints represented in the Bright Woman. For in the next chapter she is overcome by the persecuting beast. (Rev. 13:7)

3.) The overcoming ones are "brothers" so it must refer to a plural number of God's saints.

for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night. And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they loved not their soul-life even unto death."

The overcomers are like Christ. But they are a collective. So Christ is their main source and powe for overcoming.

Christ ascended to the throne in heaven after He was born, lived a life growing up as a perfect man, was crucified, and then resurrected. So the Manchild who is raptured to the throne should not mean the baby Jesus as soon as He was born.

The Manchild being raptured is a COLLECTIVE unit then and not an individual.
The Manchild is raptured as soon he is born. Here birth means resurrection.
As soon a collective unit of stronger believers who have overcome are resurrected they are raptured to third heaven to the throne of God.

At their arrival to the throne the command for Michael the archangel to fight against the Devil and his angels commences, And at that time Satan's freedom to roam the universe is limited now to only the surface of the earth.
His coming down in the beginning of the last three and one half years of the great tribulation.

The Manchild represents the deceased overcomers who are resurrected and raptured before the great tribulation.
The living overcomers who are found watching and ready are covered elsewhere. But these two groups from the universal body of saints of God
are raptured or resurrected and raptured which TRIGGERS the descent of Satan to the earth's surface only. And this limitation is the cause for the last three and one half year great tribulation to commence.

And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night. And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they loved not their soul-life even unto death.

Therefore be glad, O heavens and those who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea because the devil has come down to you and has great rage, knowing that he has only a short time. And when the dragon saw that he was cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who brought forth the man-child. And to the woman there were given the two wings of the great eagle that she might fly into the wilderness into her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time from the face of the serpent.

 

[oikonomia]

Yes I do, but not as kings. As rulers (judges and counselors) over cities yes. The disciples were looking for the restoration of the kingdom of Israel. See Acts 1:6-7

If the Lord is call "the Ruler of the kings of the earth" (Rev. 1:5) I see no reason to restrict that to secular kings only. In the millennium He will be the one Ruler of the kings of the earth He promised to reign with Him.

If the Lord Jesus is "the blessed and only Soveriegn . . . the King of those who reign as kings" (1 Timothy 6:15)

I see no reason to restrict "those who reign as kings" to exclude His rewarded sons promised will reign with Him.

In the manifestation of the kingdom of the heavens their will be various assignments.
Just being judges is one role. And being kings is another. All are for His restoration of the earth (and some) during 1,000 years of well needed administration all over the earth.

The Lord said some will be called great in the kingdom and some least in the kingdom. This indicates degrees of honor. This shows that it is an honor to enter into that millennial time. But even then there are still degrees of honor - great and least and all between.

"Therefore whoever annuls one of the lest of these commandments, and teaches men so. shall be called the least in the kingdom of the heavens; but whoever practices and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of the heavens. For unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall by no means enter into the kingdom of the heavens." (Matt. 5:19,20)

1.) These honored to enter must be transformed and sanctified persons. From within to without they are genuine sons of God having ben worked on by Him. He has wrought renuineness and realism into their souls. They have been "organically" wrought into by His life bringing them beyond all "play acting" abnd hypocitical facade show such as was practice by the Pharisees and scribes.

2.) Some have reign over this many cities and others have reign over that man cities - degress of responsibility. Thus judging is one and kingship is another and most likly levels of each are determined by the Lord's wisdom. One this for sure - they all will be in utmost harmony.

6So, when they had come together, they began asking Him, saying, “Lord, is it at this time that You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?” 7But He said to them, “It is not for you to know periods of time or appointed times which the Father has set by His own authority;

By implication a kingdom has 1 King. A “restoration” implies a “turning back” to The way things were. The way things were, is that God was King over Israel and judges and counselors RULED over the people under the KIng. The purification below indicates the restoration of the hearts of the “sons back to the Fathers”.

There is really no need to depend on implication when we are told already Christ returns as "King of kings and Lord of lords" (Rev. 19:16)
There are to be plural kings over which He is the one unique King.
There are to be plural lords over which He is the one unique Lord.

It is true that the twelve disciples were told that they would sit on twelve throne to judge the twelve tribes of Israel.
Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." (Matt. 19:28)

But Revelation says some martyrs will reign with Christ for a thousand years. It could have said they will "judge" with Christ. But it says they "reign." I see no reason to qualify reigning on thrones would not include being kings on thrones.

His promise "also sit on twelve thrones, judging" does not go so far as to say "not kings".
And Christ being forever "King of kings" should mean He is unique among kings of the earth in ANY age - from now unto eternity. So He will establish judges and kings and whatever else His world filling government needs.

His kingdom fills the whole earth (Daniel 2:35, 45).
So His administration and all that it requires replaces all the governments and administrations of the world previous.

Again Isaiah 1:25-26
. . .
26“Then I will restore your judges as at first,
And your counselors as at the beginning;
After that you will be called the city of righteousness,

This promise does not negate that there will also be those who reign with Him as kings.
We can believe both that He restores judges and that he appoints kings.

Rev. 20:4 - "And I saw [plural] thrones . . .
. . . and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

Rev. 20:6 - "They will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years."

I see no reason to restrict the responsibilities with judging and not being kings.
It could have said they will judge with Him for a thousand years.
It says "reign with Him". If someone thinks "Oh this reigning can only mean being judges" let him believe so. I think it is unnecessary limitation of the honors and responsibities Christ will assign to those He deems worthy of those rewards.

And saying there are co-kings with Christ does nothing to diminish the preemminence of Christ "the Ruler of the kings of the earth."

He says He will restore the judges as at the first and counselors as at the beginning. This has not occurred. That is the restoration of the kingdom.

In the normal church life the kingdom of God is developing.
And in the church life those who are mature are to judge between brothers righteously.
They are not judges over the outside world at large.
But they are developing that judging ability in the kingdom of God which is the normal (not abnormal) church life.

First we see that the kingdom of God Paul says "IS NOT" presently. He does not say "WILL NOT" as future only.
But today if the church is normal it is also the kingdom of God defined by righeousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

"For the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righeousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit." (Rom. 14:17)

So it would be a mistake to think only the restoral of a Messianic Israel after the second coming is the kingdom of God.

And in the church age with a proper local church life some are to act as wise judges, not over the outsiders, but over the saints with difficultiers.

First Corinthians 6:1-8

Does any one of you who has a case against another dare to be judged before the unrighteous and not before the saints? Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is judged by you, are you unworthy of the smallest judgments? Do you not know that we will judge angels, not to mention things of this life? If then you hold judgments over things of this life, do you seat as judges those who are of no account in the church? I say this to your shame. So there is no one wise among you, who will be able to discern between his brothers? But brother goes to court with brother, and this before unbelievers. Already then it is altogether a defeat to you that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded? But you wrong and defraud, and this your brothers.

As you should see the wisdom to discern and judge is a responsibility the saints in the church age should develop.
As He said to those who are faithful in the least He will place in charge of His possessions when He returns.
So from the New Testament church age judges are developed too, and not only Jewish disciples expecing the restoration of Israel.

This is not to devalue the restoration of Israel.
It is to believe both that restoration of Messianic Israel and the reward of the church's overcomers to reign with Christ as reward in the millennium.

Nothing in Acts chapter one asked by the disciples on the basis of them being Israelites negates His other promises to those who overcome in the kingdom of the church age - the normal Christian church life.

It would be a mistake to assume "Because these Jews will be judges for a retored Israel therefore there are no co-kings reigning with Christ." The important point for us in the church age is to realize the importance of His GROWING in us. We should grow in grace and develop these life matters on the small scale before us now. Then if He deems appropriate based on some factors He will amplify those functions and abilities in this coming millinneial age,

For those faithful churching (Jew or Gentile) now they are tasting the powers of the age to come.

"And have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come," (Hebrews 6:5)

 

[Happygolucky?]

If the Lord Jesus is "the blessed and only Soveriegn . . . the King of those who reign as kings" (1 Timothy 6:15)

That’s the thing, in every true kingdom, there is only 1 sovereign (king). In the coming kingdom Jesus is the only King. That’s the way the kingdom is run.

If the Lord is call "the Ruler of the kings of the earth" (Rev. 1:5) I see no reason to restrict that to secular kings only. In the millennoium He will be the one Ruler of the kings of the earth He promised to reign with Him.

“He will rule them with a rod of iron” (Jesus). He has been given the nations as His inheritance.

Psalms 2:8

8‘Ask it of Me, and I will certainly give the [e]nations as Your inheritance,
And the ends of the earth as Your possession.


It’s possible many Christians see it the same way you do. I do not


Zechariah 14:9

And the LORD will be king over all the earth. On that day the LORD will be one and his name one.

Zechariah 14:16-17

16Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that came against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of armies, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths. 17And it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of armies, there will be no rain on them.


There will be nations left when His kingdom is restored


Ezekiel 37:21-22

21And say to them, ‘This is what the Lord GOD says: “Behold, I am going to take the sons of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and I will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; 22and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king will be king for all of them; and they will no longer be two nations, and no longer be divided into two kingdoms.




Unfulfilled ^^^^^^ 1 King - 1 Melek

 

[oikonomia]

That’s the thing, in every true kingdom, there is only 1 sovereign (king). In the coming kingdom Jesus is the only King. That’s the way the kingdom is run.

In the kingdom of God there is something that no earthy government ever had - absolute harmony and coordination.
In the kingdom of which Christ is divine King there is no rivary, no envy, no jealousy, no vying for higher position, no fighting over turf, no conspiracy, no overthrow, no intrigue and betrayal which has characterized worldly kingdoms of human history.

There is absolute harmonic oneness among Christ the King and the kings, judges, servants, and whoever else serve Him. That situation is what you may not be able to imagine. Christ as "the Ruler of the kings of the earth" does nothing to detract from Christ being the "only King" of kings.

With the same misunderstanding one might argue that there is only one Son - the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son . . . "
Though Jesus is THE only begotten Son of God, there is also another side of the truth.
He is also the "Firstborn among many brothers."

Romans 8:29 - Because those whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers;

Just as it would not be right to argue "There is only ONE Son of God - the only begotten of John 3:16."
So also it would not be right to argue "There will only be ONE King - Jesus the only King."

“He will rule them with a rod of iron” (Jesus). He has been given the nations as His inheritance.

Psalms 2:8

8‘Ask it of Me, and I will certainly give the [e]nations as Your inheritance,
And the ends of the earth as Your possession.

What He does He will ALSO delegate some others to do likewise. This is not my invention.
Nor is it true because many believe so. It simply is the pure words from the mouth of Jesus

Rev. 2:26-27 -
"And he who overcomes and he who keeps My works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations;
And he will shepherd them with an iron rod, as vessels of pottery are broken in pieces, as I also have received from My Father"

In Psalm 2 He asks the Father who gives Him the ends of the earth as His inheritance.
And because it is HIS He also has authority to do with it as He wills.
And He has promised the ones living in the un-hypocritical reality of His kingdom during the church age - that THEY will inherit the earth.

"Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth." (Matt. 5:5)

It is not even a matter of what Christians want. It is a matter of what God wills in Christ.
None of us in ourselves are worthy to "inherit the earth" for none of us are truly with the divine meekness.
That is until we are transformed into the same image - the image of the FIrstborn Son.

The prizes of the millennial kingdom are not to the natural man but to the God transformed man.
And He will have [plural] kings in utter unity, oneness, and harmonious coordination with Himself as the King of kings.

It’s possible many Christians see it the same way you do. I do not


Zechariah 14:9

And the LORD will be king over all the earth. On that day the LORD will be one and his name one.

Zechariah 14:16-17

16Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that came against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of armies, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths. 17And it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of armies, there will be no rain on them.

There will be nations left when His kingdom is restored

These are all great verses to be believed certrainly.
None of these great promises negate that there will be co-kings reigning with Christ.

Christ is great enough to have a millennial kingdom with a heavenly section and a more earthy section.
It is not a dichotomy that limits Him to fulfill one set of promises and negate the others.

Second Timothy 2:11-13

"Faithful is the word: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
If we endure, we will also reign with Him; if we deny Him, He also will deny us;
If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself."

Ezekiel 37:21-22

21And say to them, ‘This is what the Lord GOD says: “Behold, I am going to take the sons of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and I will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; 22and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king will be king for all of them; and they will no longer be two nations, and no longer be divided into two kingdoms.

You do love and rely heavily on the Old Testament. I wish you would give equivalent emphasis on the New Testament words.
Do not neglect His words to the new covenant church.
Do not sweep them in a corner in favor of granting most of your emphasis to Israel as a nation.
Believe both.

 

[Happygolucky?]

You do love and rely heavily on the Old Testament. I wish you would give equivalent emphasis on the New Testament words.
Do not neglect His words to the new covenant church.
Do not sweep them in a corner in favor of granting most of your emphasis to Israel as a nation.
Believe both.

I don’t sweep the the New Testament words. We are grafted into Israel Romans 11:17-25. That is speaking of all believers. There’s only one way and that is through Christ. So, whether we’re natural born (and only purified) Israel, or grafted (purified) in Israel, we’re Israel. And there will only be 1 King. You can call us co-kings, but there can only be 1 king in a kingdom.


Ezekiel 37

21And say to them, ‘This is what the Lord GOD says: “Behold, I am going to take the sons of Israel (All Believers) from among the nations where they have gone, and I will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; 22and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king will be king for all of them; and they will no longer be two nations, and no longer be divided into two kingdoms.

Ezekiel 37:24 Son of David, Jesus

24“And My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd; and they will walk in My ordinances, and keep My statutes and [j]follow them.

This is unfulfilled and we are grafted in among (into) Israel. David was long sleeping in Ezekiel’s time.

So whether you call the Church, Body of Christ, Israel, it’s basically synonymous.

 

[oikonomia]

I don’t sweep the the New Testament words. We are grafted into Israel Romans 11:17-25. That is speaking of all believers. There’s only one way and that is through Christ. So, whether we’re natural born (and only purified) Israel, or grafted (purified) in Israel, we’re Israel. And there will only be 1 King. You can call us co-kings, but there can only be 1 king in a kingdom.

Now this sounds encouraging that we agree we are "the Israel of God." We Christ indwelt men and women who are joined in life to Christ and live through Him. (Gal. 6:16)
And Christ is "the Head over all things to the church" (Eph. 1:22)

This phrase "to the church" indicates a transmission. Down from the unique Head there is heading up of all things TO the church. Not even a mosquito will not be headed up.
Not even a blade of crab grass or a weed will be out of order.
All things will be restored from the gigantic collapse of the universe because of the rebellion.

And the sons of God Headed up by the Son of God - He and they will reign forever and ever.
Rev. 21:7 - "He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be God to him, and he will be a son to Me."
Rev. 22:5 - "And night will be no more; and they have no need of the light of a lamp and of the light of the sun, for the Lord God will shine upon them; and they will reign forever and ever."

Christ is "the Ruler of the kings of the earth" (Rev. 1:5). I praise the Lord Jesus He is now and forever unto eternity the Ruler of all the earth's kings. And a final scene in the age of the new heaven and new earth we see that nations and the kings of the earth bring their glory unto the capital of the new creation - New Jerusalem.

Revelation 21:23-27

"And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon that they should shine in it, for the glory of God illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb. And the nations will walk by its light; and the kings of the earth bring their glory into it.
And its gates shall by no means be shut by day, for there will be no night there.
And they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it. And anything common and he who makes an abomination and a lie shall by no means enter into it, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life."

 

[oikonomia]