Revelation 19/Armageddon is NOT the second coming.

[Sorn]

Because pretribulationism wasn't taught until the 1800's. All the Early Church believed they would be persecuted first, then be delivered.

The bible NEVER says that God will pull people out of the world before persecution.

Yes it does. God pulls the church out of the world before a very specific persecution, the Tribulation, the calamities that occur during the 7 years before the return of Jesus. Thats what 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is saying. Also supported by 1 Thessalonians 5:9.

Btw, you didn't address the contradiction I raised in post #57

 

[Sorn]

All the Early Church believed they would be persecuted first, then be delivered.

Thats an assertion, what passage do you have to support?
I assert that what they were worried about in 1 & 2 Thessalonians WAS the persecutions of the tribulation, specifically the persecutions of the tribulation, and Paul was assuring them by telling them they would NOT got through them. The Church does NOT go through the tribulation.

 

[Jamdoc]

Yes it does. God pulls the church out of the world before a very specific persecution, the Tribulation, the calamities that occur during the 7 years before the return of Jesus. Thats what 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is saying. Also supported by 1 Thessalonians 5:9.

Btw, you didn't address the contradiction I raised in post #57

The bible never uses "the seven year tribulation"
ever. Jesus said that after the tribulation the sun and moon darken. That's at the 6th seal. The great tribulation is over at the 6th seal. No trumpets or bowls are part of the great tribulation, they're part of the wrath of God. they are totally different things. You have been TAUGHT BY MEN that they are the same. The bible does not teach that. The bible teaches tribulation, then the coming of Christ, and the Coming of Christ is deliverance/redemption for the saints and destruction for the wicked.
Read into Revelation 7, between the 6th and 7th seal, those saints have come OUT of great tribulation. It's over, done. The wrath of God begins at Revelation 6:17, the martyrs during the 5th seal ask how long until the Lord avenges them, meaning, that God has not been pouring out His wrath yet.

Thats an assertion, what passage do you have to support?
I assert that what they were worried about in 1 & 2 Thessalonians WAS the persecutions of the tribulation, specifically the persecutions of the tribulation, and Paul was assuring them by telling them they would NOT got through them. The Church does NOT go through the tribulation.

1 Peter 4

12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

 

[Jamdoc]

Also scripture says that the kingdom is preached to all the world and then the end comes, Matthew 24:14, its a bit of a contradiction to have the gospel preached allover the world, which requires people, time, money & resources while at the same time having a great falling away, presumably much greater that there is today.

So according to your world view Christianity needs to dramatically shrink yet at the same time the whole world is reached with the Gospel. Boy, those few Christians that don't fall away are going to be working their butts off & somehow spreading the word everywhere even though there won't be congregations to support them as they all fell away. Does that strike you as odd??

There is never a 'great falling away' from the faith, there is however a departure of the saved to heaven before the antichrist is revealed & before the Day of the Lord.

The Church doesn't actually complete that mission.

Revelation 14

6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

First the Gospel is preached

8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

Then Babylon is destroyed (by the 10 Kings and the Beast, according to Revelation 17, Babylon is the city that rules the Earth PRIOR to the Beast, she RIDES the beast at first, then the 10 Kings hate her and make her desolate and give their power to the beast, so the beast is not the first global empire in the end times but the second)

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Now the beast and his mark are in power, after Babylon has fallen

12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

The martyrs of the great tribulation

Next up...

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

Jesus on the clouds

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Jesus reaps the Earth of those that belong to Him, they are not put into the winepress of His wrath.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

These are Earth dwellers, not citizens of heaven, gathered by an angel, not Jesus

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

The Earth dwellers gathered by the angel after Jesus was on the clouds... ARE put through the wrath of God.

 

[David Kent]

even worse.

I'd rather a pretrib dispensational church than a preterist church.

They are not preterist.

 

[Jamdoc]

They are not preterist.

if they don't believe in a future 70th week then there are two options:
either they are preterist, believing the 70th week took place in the past
or they are heretics, not believing Jesus will come again at all.

 

[David Kent]

The seventy weeks began with the going forth of God's decree, given by Cyrus, 7 weeks during which the temple and city were built, with opposition from Samballat and others which was finished in the 6th year of Darius, Ezra 6:5. Later the walls were broken down and Nehemiah repaired them.

Then 69 weeks to Messiah the prince, which was fulfilled with the baptism of Jesus, the anointing of the most Holy. Jesus ministry was during the 70th week and he was cut off in the middle of the week having introduced the new covenant if his blood, shed for many, the Jews, it ceased to be to the Jews exclusively till the conversion of Cornelius and his household, from which time the gospel was preached to everyone. The prince who came was Titus whose people, the Roman soldiers destroyed the temple against his orders. That was not in the seventieth week but as a result of the Jews in the main, rejecting the gospel.
“Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city,
1.To finish the transgression,
2.To make an end of sins,
3. To make reconciliation for iniquity,
4. To bring in everlasting righteousness,
5. To seal up vision and prophecy,
6. And to anoint the Most Holy.
The first four of the of these were fulfilled in His death on the cross. The last two at his baptism.
5, The prophets prophecied till John
6. The Spirit of the Lord is upon me for he has anointed me, Luke chapter 4.

All fulfilled and I am not a preterist or a futurist. I might say the anyone who thinks any of that is future is an heretic, but I won't because I don't call Christian's names.

One last point. My wife and I were reading Mark 4 this morning

28-30 “Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation”— because they said, “He has an unclean spirit.”

I should be very careful about saying a prophecy about the Messiah is about the Antichrist.

 

[David Kent]

Yes it does. God pulls the church out of the world before a very specific persecution, the Tribulation, the calamities that occur during the 7 years before the return of Jesus. Thats what 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is saying. Also supported by 1 Thessalonians 5:9.

Btw, you didn't address the contradiction I raised in post #57

1 Thessalonians 5:9. The wrath of God is the judgement. 2 Thessalonians 2:3 the man of sin came long ag

Thats an assertion, what passage do you have to support?
I assert that what they were worried about in 1 & 2 Thessalonians WAS the persecutions of the tribulation, specifically the persecutions of the tribulation, and Paul was assuring them by telling them they would NOT got through them. The Church does NOT go through the tribulation.

What bible do you read and what world are you living in?

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
Christians have always had tribulation. Have you never read the full copy of Foxe's Book of Martyrs? I had 1848 set of this in eight large volumes, which shows that the church went through great tribulation up to his time, and had done ever since.

 

[Sorn]

1 Thessalonians 5:9. The wrath of God is the judgement. 2 Thessalonians 2:3 the man of sin came long ag

What bible do you read and what world are you living in?

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
Christians have always had tribulation. Have you never read the full copy of Foxe's Book of Martyrs? I had 1848 set of this in eight large volumes, which shows that the church went through great tribulation up to his time, and had done ever since.

Yes, Christians have always faced persecution but that has been the world persecuting Christians. The time known as the Tribulation or the Great Tribulation, as a period, will be a time where things are reversed so to speak & God will be persecuting (or more correctly judging) the world. Christians, or the church, are spared from the day of Gods wrath by the rapture. Also after removing the church in the rapture God then turns His attention to the Jews / Israel again & uses the Tribulation period, also known as the Time of Jacob's troubles to save & bring them back to him, 1/3 anyway as 2/3 don't make it. Its when the Jews, as a whole recognize Jesus or they have taken the mark of the beast & are lost.
After the 7 years & Jesus victory as the Jewish Messiah, He sets up a 1000yr Jewish Kingdom from Jerusalem and Israel becomes the worlds leading nation for 1000yrs.

 

[David Kent]

That pre tribulation teaching is a myth.

The saints will be raised on the Last Day, John 6:39, 40, 44, 54. and 11:24
The judgement will also be on the Last Day, John 12:48

 

[David Kent]

Yes, Christians have always faced persecution but that has been the world persecuting Christians. The time known as the Tribulation or the Great Tribulation, as a period, will be a time where things are reversed so to speak & God will be persecuting (or more correctly judging) the world. Christians, or the church, are spared from the day of Gods wrath by the rapture. Also after removing the church in the rapture God then turns His attention to the Jews / Israel again & uses the Tribulation period, also known as the Time of Jacob's troubles to save & bring them back to him, 1/3 anyway as 2/3 don't make it. Its when the Jews, as a whole recognize Jesus or they have taken the mark of the beast & are lost.
After the 7 years & Jesus victory as the Jewish Messiah, He sets up a 1000yr Jewish Kingdom from Jerusalem and Israel becomes the worlds leading nation for 1000yrs.

I have already shown that the whole 70 weeks were completed in the ministry of Messiah the Prince.
Great tribulation in the gospels was completed in AD 66-70 and was a result of the unbelieving Jews crucifying thir Messiah filling up the measure of their fathers. Matthew 23:29-31, 36-39

Great tribulation in Revelation is on believers.
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Who are those who "have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."? Those Christians who through the dark ages suffered death rather than deny the Christ who died for them How many of those who believe the church would not go through tribulation would do that? Not any I suspect. Those in the US that have asked about this say that is why they carry guns, even into church.

 

[Jamdoc]

The seventy weeks began with the going forth of God's decree, given by Cyrus, 7 weeks during which the temple and city were built, with opposition from Samballat and others which was finished in the 6th year of Darius, Ezra 6:5. Later the walls were broken down and Nehemiah repaired them.

Then 69 weeks to Messiah the prince, which was fulfilled with the baptism of Jesus, the anointing of the most Holy. Jesus ministry was during the 70th week and he was cut off in the middle of the week having introduced the new covenant if his blood, shed for many, the Jews, it ceased to be to the Jews exclusively till the conversion of Cornelius and his household, from which time the gospel was preached to everyone. The prince who came was Titus whose people, the Roman soldiers destroyed the temple against his orders. That was not in the seventieth week but as a result of the Jews in the main, rejecting the gospel.
“Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city,
1.To finish the transgression,
2.To make an end of sins,
3. To make reconciliation for iniquity,
4. To bring in everlasting righteousness,
5. To seal up vision and prophecy,
6. And to anoint the Most Holy.
The first four of the of these were fulfilled in His death on the cross. The last two at his baptism.
5, The prophets prophecied till John
6. The Spirit of the Lord is upon me for he has anointed me, Luke chapter 4.

All fulfilled and I am not a preterist or a futurist. I might say the anyone who thinks any of that is future is an heretic, but I won't because I don't call Christian's names.

One last point. My wife and I were reading Mark 4 this morning

28-30 “Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation”— because they said, “He has an unclean spirit.”

I should be very careful about saying a prophecy about the Messiah is about the Antichrist.

The ending of daily sacrifices is done by the little horn in Daniel 8, and the vile man in Daniel 11. Daniel 9:27 involves the ending of daily sacrifices.

 

[David Kent]

The ending of daily sacrifices is done by the little horn in Daniel 8, and the vile man in Daniel 11. Daniel 9:27 involves the ending of daily sacrifices.

Antiochus Epiphanes Danilel 11. Jesus Daniel 9:27. Daniel 8 Antiochus Epiphanes possibly or Augustus as he appeared stiff latter end of the Greek kingdom

 

[Jamdoc]

Antiochus Epiphanes Danilel 11. Jesus Daniel 9:27. Daniel 8 Antiochus Epiphanes possibly or Augustus as he appeared stiff latter end of the Greek kingdom

No, it's not Antiochus Epiphanes at all. neither is Daniel 8, as Gabriel says it's an end times prophecy multiple times, and Alexander the Great does not fit the specifics (wasn't the first king, he was the 23rd Macedonian King, and 3rd Macedonian King named Alexander), and because Daniel 11 is referring to Daniel 8, nope, not it.

I believe the adherence to historical "fulfillment" is part of how Daniel is sealed, people think it's already done, so they don't study it, or study it while carrying over baggage from hundreds of years of "great theologians" who got it wrong. It's a book sealed until the end, how are we going to trust people who tried interpreting a sealed book 1000+ years ago?

 

[David Kent]

No, it's not Antiochus Epiphanes at all. neither is Daniel 8, as Gabriel says it's an end times prophecy multiple times, and Alexander the Great does not fit the specifics (wasn't the first king, he was the 23rd Macedonian King, and 3rd Macedonian King named Alexander), and because Daniel 11 is referring to Daniel 8, nope, not it.

I believe the adherence to historical "fulfillment" is part of how Daniel is sealed, people think it's already done, so they don't study it, or study it while carrying over baggage from hundreds of years of "great theologians" who got it wrong. It's a book sealed until the end, how are we going to trust people who tried interpreting a sealed book 1000+ years ago?

That is a strange doctrine. it is not about Greek history, it is about the Greek Empire which began when Alexander conquered the Persian empire.

 

[Jamdoc]

That is a strange doctrine. it is not about Greek history, it is about the Greek Empire which began when Alexander conquered the Persian empire.

still doesn't fit.
as Gabriel says it's about the final indignation.
This was hundreds of years before the incarnation of Christ.
not at all "end times" or "final indignation"

 

[Timtofly]

This is apparent because the saints are there before the throne of God, but so is Jesus, so Jesus did not outright leave Heaven yet.

This is because you are still hung up on the timing of Revelation 7:9-14.

John is not "just seeing" as if they just arrived. John saw the final group, because at the 6th Seal, Second Coming the rest of the church was brought home to Paradise.

"For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes."

The Lamb ascended with all the OT redeemed on Sunday morning after talking to Mary. That is when this verse became a reality. Great tribulation has been the last 1993 years since that morning. Steven was welcomed by the Lamb standing to greet Steven as he was being stoned.

What those people were doing in Paradise serving God day and night in His Temple has been true since 30AD.

The Lamb does not have to be in this scene at the time John is seeing this multitude. The Lamb was there from the Resurrection ascension until the 6th Seal was opened. All those in Christ are there even as we post these posts. The only ones not there are those who are still alive (in Adam's dead flesh) and remain on the earth. The reality of the church on earth stops at the Second Coming, the 6th Seal. The church will not return for over 1,000 years. That will happen in the NHNE when the New Jerusalem descends from Heaven to Earth. Paradise will be the New Jerusalem in the NHNE. The New Jerusalem is not even a reality right now. Paradise is the current reality.

What John sees as Heaven and earth fleeing away is the same as Paul's point in 1 Corinthians 15:24-28

"Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power..... For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Creation will return to God like it started out as nothing. Then the NHNE will be a totally different reality.

At Armageddon Jesus returns, only if Jesus left at the mid point of the week of the 7th Trumpet. From the 1st Trumpet until the 7th Thunder, is when His vesture is dipped in blood.

"And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God."

All of Adam's flesh must be destroyed. Armageddon is just that last remnant of Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

During the Trumpets we see Matthew 25 and the separation of the sheep and goats. During the Thunders we see Matthew 13 and the tares and the wheat. In 30AD mankind symbolically shed the blood of the Lamb. From the 6th Seal to the 7th Trumpet the Lamb will be symbolically shedding the blood of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. That is why they are hiding in the caves and under the rubble. The wrath of the Lamb is come.

"And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

No one can know how long the Trumpets and Thunders will last. Because no one knows when the 6th Seal will be opened. The 42 months between the 7th Trumpet and Armageddon is about all we know (at least that is what every one posts about). And we will not even know if those 42 months happen, until the days of the 7th Trumpet.

 

[Timtofly]

I mean He may stay here all 1000 years but we shouldn't limit Him, if He wants to visit Heaven, i won't stand in His way He is still the creator and there's probably lots in Heaven we have no idea about.

For those who take the symbolism of this marriage literally also have to have two wives that Jesus spends time with, and who is Jesus literally married to and when.

But to be more direct His earthly wife was always on earth, Israel. Jesus would not leave a spouse in Abraham's bosom, so was not married to the church, and will not ever be, even in this current creation.

Seems the church will have to wait in Paradise like they did in Abraham's bosom as the "bride to be" until after the NHNE. Because the New Jerusalem is still a bride adorned. That is when the church as a bride will be joined to the earthly spouse, or so it would seem.

Currently the earthly spouse is in a state of divorce, until brought back as Israel at the Second Coming, the 6th Seal. That is if people take this as literal, with a literal ceremony and supper. It would seem that the Millennium is a remarriage event. Jesus will be Israel's King and King over all nations as well.

 

[Timtofly]

Yes.



Who does God warn about repeatedly through the prophets? Antichrist.
Warns about him as the little horn in Daniel, as the Assyrian in Micah, as the worthless shepherd in Zechariah, etc.
where does he warn about some random Russian?

Or Satan as the constant adversary of humanity.

 

[Timtofly]

The temple being cleansed will be the day of Jesus's return to the Mt. of Olives - to remove the false prophet, the beast-king, to turn the abomination statue image to ashes, to have Satan bound and cast into the bottomless pit.

To your point, of the sweep through Edom, and a slaughter of to take place there.... We know Jesus will be descending to earth in great glory and power, accompanied by his army of saints. As they draw near to the earth, it would be very viable that Jesus will quickly sweep through edom to slaughter the wicked and the armies there in a semi-circle type route, and slowing down as He approaches Jerusalem to stand on the Mount of Olives.

Still wrong. The Second Coming is the 6th Seal to the Mount of Olives.

Armageddon is over 4 years at least after the return to the Mount of Olives, and that is to the Mount of Megiddo. The valley of that Mount is where the final battle is, not Jerusalem.

Jesus comes at the 6th Seal to establish a throne and Temple in Jerusalem. No human will build this throne and Temple. Then at the 7th Trumpet is when the 42 months start where Satan occupies this throne and Temple. They are not destroyed in Revelation 19, because the battle is an hour away at Megiddo.

They have to be built before the 42 months by Jesus and His angels. It is Jesus' throne, not what some human built for Jesus.