Revelation 19/Armageddon is NOT the second coming.

[Douggg]

Still wrong. The Second Coming is the 6th Seal to the Mount of Olives.

Armageddon is over 4 years at least after the return to the Mount of Olives, and that is to the Mount of Megiddo. The valley of that Mount is where the final battle is, not Jerusalem.

Jesus comes at the 6th Seal to establish a throne and Temple in Jerusalem. No human will build this throne and Temple. Then at the 7th Trumpet is when the 42 months start where Satan occupies this throne and Temple. They are not destroyed in Revelation 19, because the battle is an hour away at Megiddo.

They have to be built before the 42 months by Jesus and His angels. It is Jesus' throne, not what some human built for Jesus.

Tim, when Jesus returns, He stands on the Mt. of Olives splitting it in half. At that time, the beast king and the false prophet will be cast into the lake of fire, and Satan cast into the bottomless pit. And at that time Jesus destroys those armies that had assembled at Armageddon and moved down to surround Jerusalem.

 

[Jamdoc]

This is because you are still hung up on the timing of Revelation 7:9-14.

John is not "just seeing" as if they just arrived. John saw the final group, because at the 6th Seal, Second Coming the rest of the church was brought home to Paradise.

"For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes."

The Lamb ascended with all the OT redeemed on Sunday morning after talking to Mary. That is when this verse became a reality. Great tribulation has been the last 1993 years since that morning. Steven was welcomed by the Lamb standing to greet Steven as he was being stoned.

What those people were doing in Paradise serving God day and night in His Temple has been true since 30AD.

The Lamb does not have to be in this scene at the time John is seeing this multitude. The Lamb was there from the Resurrection ascension until the 6th Seal was opened. All those in Christ are there even as we post these posts. The only ones not there are those who are still alive (in Adam's dead flesh) and remain on the earth. The reality of the church on earth stops at the Second Coming, the 6th Seal. The church will not return for over 1,000 years. That will happen in the NHNE when the New Jerusalem descends from Heaven to Earth. Paradise will be the New Jerusalem in the NHNE. The New Jerusalem is not even a reality right now. Paradise is the current reality.

What John sees as Heaven and earth fleeing away is the same as Paul's point in 1 Corinthians 15:24-28

"Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power..... For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Creation will return to God like it started out as nothing. Then the NHNE will be a totally different reality.

At Armageddon Jesus returns, only if Jesus left at the mid point of the week of the 7th Trumpet. From the 1st Trumpet until the 7th Thunder, is when His vesture is dipped in blood.

"And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God."

All of Adam's flesh must be destroyed. Armageddon is just that last remnant of Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

During the Trumpets we see Matthew 25 and the separation of the sheep and goats. During the Thunders we see Matthew 13 and the tares and the wheat. In 30AD mankind symbolically shed the blood of the Lamb. From the 6th Seal to the 7th Trumpet the Lamb will be symbolically shedding the blood of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. That is why they are hiding in the caves and under the rubble. The wrath of the Lamb is come.

"And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

No one can know how long the Trumpets and Thunders will last. Because no one knows when the 6th Seal will be opened. The 42 months between the 7th Trumpet and Armageddon is about all we know (at least that is what every one posts about). And we will not even know if those 42 months happen, until the days of the 7th Trumpet.

yeah I'm not able to agree with the great tribulation being 1900 years long. Jesus said it'd all happen within 1 generation.

 

[Timtofly]

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


If you have this taking place first, it seems to me then that Paul is misleading us here to believe something that is not literally true, since what you are proposing can't possibly equal this--- and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Can't be with Him when He is somewhere that they are not. Yet, the text indicates as of this meeting in the air, so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The term Lord is the full Trinity or at the least God on the throne. The thief on the Cross was with God that day. Still the same Lord. Jesus claims He and the Father are one. One what? One Lord. The term Lord is found in Genesis 2. Adonai in Hebrew is Lord. The Lord was on the Cross, not just the Lamb.

 

[Timtofly]

The people Paul was addressing were worried that they would go through the tribulation, that is why they were anxious

No.

They thought they missed the Day of the Lord.

Or put another way, "Relax, the days of judgement will not come before the antichrist is revealed & that will not come before God takes us out of this world" in the rapture

Of course the judgment comes before any AC. Paul is not talking about any judgment. That is the point you are missing.

The coming judgment is not for Satan nor his antichrist. Satan and company are the answer in opposition to God's judgment. Jesus is ridding the world of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Satan offers an escape, and that is why it is a deception. Satan is giving humans a false hope that if they follow him, they will be safe.

Besides the departure from the faith happened a long time ago. When the church of Rome turned a relationship with God into a works based salvation that relied on the church leaders for security of the believer. The "church religion" became an intermediary between a soul and God. If you do infant baptism, and every thing they say the rest of your life, you will be a Christian.

Besides, Satan gets the leftovers after the Second Coming and final harvest.

 

[Timtofly]

The seventy weeks began with the going forth of God's decree, given by Cyrus, 7 weeks during which the temple and city were built, with opposition from Samballat and others which was finished in the 6th year of Darius, Ezra 6:5. Later the walls were broken down and Nehemiah repaired them.

Then 69 weeks to Messiah the prince, which was fulfilled with the baptism of Jesus, the anointing of the most Holy. Jesus ministry was during the 70th week and he was cut off in the middle of the week having introduced the new covenant if his blood, shed for many, the Jews, it ceased to be to the Jews exclusively till the conversion of Cornelius and his household, from which time the gospel was preached to everyone. The prince who came was Titus whose people, the Roman soldiers destroyed the temple against his orders. That was not in the seventieth week but as a result of the Jews in the main, rejecting the gospel.
“Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city,
1.To finish the transgression,
2.To make an end of sins,
3. To make reconciliation for iniquity,
4. To bring in everlasting righteousness,
5. To seal up vision and prophecy,
6. And to anoint the Most Holy.
The first four of the of these were fulfilled in His death on the cross. The last two at his baptism.
5, The prophets prophecied till John
6. The Spirit of the Lord is upon me for he has anointed me, Luke chapter 4.

All fulfilled and I am not a preterist or a futurist. I might say the anyone who thinks any of that is future is an heretic, but I won't because I don't call Christian's names.

One last point. My wife and I were reading Mark 4 this morning

28-30 “Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation”— because they said, “He has an unclean spirit.”

I should be very careful about saying a prophecy about the Messiah is about the Antichrist.

The 70th week is only half fulfulled.

Jesus as King on earth is the second half of the week.

That will happen in the Days of the 7th Trumpet. The 7th Trumpet declares the 70th week is over.

Jesus is the only Prince or prince in Daniel 9.

 

[Timtofly]

I have already shown that the whole 70 weeks were completed in the ministry of Messiah the Prince.
Great tribulation in the gospels was completed in AD 66-70 and was a result of the unbelieving Jews crucifying thir Messiah filling up the measure of their fathers. Matthew 23:29-31, 36-39

Great tribulation in Revelation is on believers.
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Who are those who "have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."? Those Christians who through the dark ages suffered death rather than deny the Christ who died for them How many of those who believe the church would not go through tribulation would do that? Not any I suspect. Those in the US that have asked about this say that is why they carry guns, even into church.

This view and interpretation may as well be full preterism.

The Millennium / Day of the Lord starts when the 70 weeks end.

That is why those in Thessaloniki thought they missed the Day of the Lord. They thought all had been fulfilled as well.

The church over the centuries has fallen away many times. Just as easily and quickly as Israel did during her 1400 years.

 

[Timtofly]

Tim, when Jesus returns, He stands on the Mt. of Olives splitting it in half. At that time, the beast king and the false prophet will be cast into the lake of fire, and Satan cast into the bottomless pit. And at that time Jesus destroys those armies that had assembled at Armageddon and moved down to surround Jerusalem.


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Impossible. Mount of Olives happens at the 6th Seal way before the 7th Trumpet.

Armageddon is 42 months after the 7th Trumpet started to sound.

Jesus has to totally change the geography in the 6th Seal, before the throne and Temple can be built. The whole earth is changed back into one continent, before the Trumpets even sound. Satan gets the leftovers, the gleanings. The final harvest happens before Satan's 42 months. He cannot be in the pit until after the 42 months.

Zechariah 14 is the 6th Seal. Armageddon is the last hour before the Millennium starts. Then the new heaven and earth are implemented per Isaiah 65. The Day of the Lord is Isaiah 65. In 2 Peter 3 we see the Day of the Lord comes at the 6th Seal, but starts when the 7th Trumpet stops. The baptism of fire and the final harvest is the time of Jacob's trouble, the cleansing necessary to remove Adam's dead corruptible flesh. The church leaves first at the 6th Seal, the Second Coming.

The cleansing fire is what John prophesied of Jesus. John would baptize with water, but Jesus would baptize with fire. That will happen when Jesus comes as King.

 

[Timtofly]

yeah I'm not able to agree with the great tribulation being 1900 years long. Jesus said it'd all happen within 1 generation.

Not Jacob's trouble, the great tribulation promised to the church. Matthew 24:4-13.

Jacob's trouble is Great Tribulation cut short by the Second Coming.

The church has come out of great tribulation for the last 1993 years and counting. People are still being martyred to this day.

Israel is not the church. The church is not Israel. Jacob's trouble is not for the church, but for Israel, the sheep and goats. Yes only a third come out of "that generation" as sheep. Two thirds as goats. The Trumpets are the sheep and goat judgment after the 6th Seal.

Surely you don't think Matthew 24:4-13 is the same tribulation as Matthew 24:21-28?

The first tribulation is for the church. The second is for Jacob. The Second Coming brings the church's tribulation to a close. The church is no longer on earth to have tribulation.

The trouble of Jacob is shorter because the church's tribulation is longer. God's grace and mercy is upon the earth as long as the church is here. Once the church is taken away, the wrath starts on Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Israel is gathered next. That is why the 144k are sealed. They are immune to God's wrath while on the earth with Jesus.

The 7th Seal is removed, and the Lamb's book of life is opened for editing. Names will be removed starting with the goats. That is why most are still alive after the 6th Seal. They will only die, when God declares they will die.

The Seals are not without removal from Adam's dead corruptible flesh. 25 percent will be removed. The question is: does that include the church being removed. How bad is the 4th Seal when war breaks out that Jesus stops at Jerusalem per Zechariah 14. Is the 4th Seal Satan's attempt to upstage the Second Coming and 2 Peter 3? Certainly if nukes are used much of earth's works will be destroyed. But Peter claims fire from God does the same thing.

The only event that would give away the Second Coming is the 4th Seal.

 

[David Kent]

There are two great errors in commenting on prophecy..
1 to think that things are fulfilled at a time when the haven't
2. The think that things are still future shen they have been fulfilled. That is probably the worst of the two as you have the advantage of history to understand it. All predictions about the future are speculations, as prophecy is rarely understood properly until it happens.

 

[David Kent]

Jacob's trouble was given in a book dedicated to warning the the people a Judah ahout the Babylonian invasion and what to do when they did invade. Jacob's trouble was part of that.

 

[Jamdoc]

Not Jacob's trouble, the great tribulation promised to the church. Matthew 24:4-13.

Jacob's trouble is Great Tribulation cut short by the Second Coming.

The church has come out of great tribulation for the last 1993 years and counting. People are still being martyred to this day.

Israel is not the church. The church is not Israel. Jacob's trouble is not for the church, but for Israel, the sheep and goats. Yes only a third come out of "that generation" as sheep. Two thirds as goats. The Trumpets are the sheep and goat judgment after the 6th Seal.

Surely you don't think Matthew 24:4-13 is the same tribulation as Matthew 24:21-28?

The first tribulation is for the church. The second is for Jacob. The Second Coming brings the church's tribulation to a close. The church is no longer on earth to have tribulation.

The trouble of Jacob is shorter because the church's tribulation is longer. God's grace and mercy is upon the earth as long as the church is here. Once the church is taken away, the wrath starts on Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Israel is gathered next. That is why the 144k are sealed. They are immune to God's wrath while on the earth with Jesus.

The 7th Seal is removed, and the Lamb's book of life is opened for editing. Names will be removed starting with the goats. That is why most are still alive after the 6th Seal. They will only die, when God declares they will die.

The Seals are not without removal from Adam's dead corruptible flesh. 25 percent will be removed. The question is: does that include the church being removed. How bad is the 4th Seal when war breaks out that Jesus stops at Jerusalem per Zechariah 14. Is the 4th Seal Satan's attempt to upstage the Second Coming and 2 Peter 3? Certainly if nukes are used much of earth's works will be destroyed. But Peter claims fire from God does the same thing.

The only event that would give away the Second Coming is the 4th Seal.

I'm talking about Matthew 24, Jesus said that 1 generation would experience everything, from birth pangs to second coming.

 

[Timtofly]

I'm talking about Matthew 24, Jesus said that 1 generation would experience everything, from birth pangs to second coming.

There are two tribulation periods mentioned in Matthew 24.

 

[Jamdoc]

There are two tribulation periods mentioned in Matthew 24.

and Jesus said "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."
even IF Jesus was meaning 2 separate tribulations, he still meant 1 generation would see all of it. It is a brief period of time, not thousands of years.

 

[Timtofly]

and Jesus said "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."
even IF Jesus was meaning 2 separate tribulations, he still meant 1 generation would see all of it. It is a brief period of time, not thousands of years.

Not the part that started in the first century. Jesus told them, those sitting on the mount of Olives, they would go through great tribulation and all that came after them until the very end. Verses 4-14 is not one single generation. It was the whole NT period from the Cross until the end.

"And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet."

That was the entire church being warned, not a single generation. The generation that sees the end sees all the verses after the end is declared.

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

That is the end.

The next verse starts from the end and goes until the parable. The parable is the generation that sees the fig tree bloom. That is not the last event they see.

The first event is Israel becoming a nation. Then the Second Coming. Then the time of Jacob's trouble. Then the AoD, the last 42 months before Armageddon. Armageddon is the end. Not the beginning of that generation. Armageddon does not happen, and then the AoD, and then the tribulation, and then the Second Coming, ending with Israel becoming a nation.

Two tribulations. The one starting with the Cross. The other starting with the Second Coming. The Gospel is still preached by the 2 witnesses up until 3.5 days before Armageddon.

"And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,"

This is still true those last 3.5 days while the 7 vials of God's wrath is poured out while those 2 witnesses lay dead in the street of Jerusalem. In fact even when those 2 come back to life they still give glory to God during the earthquake. But then all are killed hours later at Armageddon. That is the end. Some of these will have seen Israel become a nation.

"And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven."

"And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath."

The next scene is the battle of Armageddon. The End.

Then the Day of the Lord begins.

 

[Jamdoc]

Not the part that started in the first century. Jesus told them, those sitting on the mount of Olives, they would go through great tribulation and all that came after them until the very end. Verses 4-14 is not one single generation. It was the whole NT period from the Cross until the end.

"And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet."

That was the entire church being warned, not a single generation. The generation that sees the end sees all the verses after the end is declared.

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

That is the end.

The next verse starts from the end and goes until the parable. The parable is the generation that sees the fig tree bloom. That is not the last event they see.

The first event is Israel becoming a nation. Then the Second Coming. Then the time of Jacob's trouble. Then the AoD, the last 42 months before Armageddon. Armageddon is the end. Not the beginning of that generation. Armageddon does not happen, and then the AoD, and then the tribulation, and then the Second Coming, ending with Israel becoming a nation.

Two tribulations. The one starting with the Cross. The other starting with the Second Coming. The Gospel is still preached by the 2 witnesses up until 3.5 days before Armageddon.

"And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,"

This is still true those last 3.5 days while the 7 vials of God's wrath is poured out while those 2 witnesses lay dead in the street of Jerusalem. In fact even when those 2 come back to life they still give glory to God during the earthquake. But then all are killed hours later at Armageddon. That is the end. Some of these will have seen Israel become a nation.

"And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven."

"And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath."

The next scene is the battle of Armageddon. The End.

Then the Day of the Lord begins.

All these things means all these things. you don't get to add in breaks or exclusions that Jesus did not say.

 

[Timtofly]

All these things means all these things. you don't get to add in breaks or exclusions that Jesus did not say.

Jesus did declare where the end was. Jesus did not say the end was in the first century. Jesus did say the beginning of their tribulation started in the first century.

The church's tribulation started in the first century. It is still going today, so is a thing in your scenario. Jesus did not say a person would live that whole time.

Since the church's tribulation never stopped, it does not have to begin now. The church's tribulation will stop when the church leaves. But the same generation that sees Israel become a nation will still see the church's tribulation and the time of Jacob's trouble. They will see both tribulations. But they will not see the first century. You are being overly ridiculous to say one generation would see Stephen killed as well as the Second Coming. Since that would be all things as the entire last 1993 years of history.

 

[Jamdoc]

Jesus did declare where the end was. Jesus did not say the end was in the first century. Jesus did say the beginning of their tribulation started in the first century.

The church's tribulation started in the first century. It is still going today, so is a thing in your scenario. Jesus did not say a person would live that whole time.

Since the church's tribulation never stopped, it does not have to begin now. The church's tribulation will stop when the church leaves. But the same generation that sees Israel become a nation will still see the church's tribulation and the time of Jacob's trouble. They will see both tribulations. But they will not see the first century. You are being overly ridiculous to say one generation would see Stephen killed as well as the Second Coming. Since that would be all things as the entire last 1993 years of history.

No He didn't. He didn't give any indication of date and said He did not know the date (only God the Father knows that). He knew what would happen and that when it happened it would happen quickly, within 1 generation. He gave signs to watch for, not dates.

He gave a series of signs and instructions and events, and said the generation that saw the fig tree bring forth new leaves would not pass away until ALL THESE THINGS be fulfilled.

Matthew 24

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Jesus said the generation that sees the abomination of desolation will see the second coming. Now as to whether the fig tree is a symbol of Israel or not is perhaps debatable but...

Amos 8

8 Thus hath the Lord God shewed unto me: and behold a basket of summer fruit.
2 And he said, Amos, what seest thou? And I said, A basket of summer fruit. Then said the Lord unto me, The end is come upon my people of Israel; I will not again pass by them any more.

Fig is summer fruit. So yes, the figs being ready for harvest is a marker for the end times. When they're ripe for harvest the end comes and God will no longer pass by them anymore.

 

[Timtofly]

No He didn't. He didn't give any indication of date and said He did not know the date (only God the Father knows that). He knew what would happen and that when it happened it would happen quickly, within 1 generation. He gave signs to watch for, not dates.

He gave a series of signs and instructions and events, and said the generation that saw the fig tree bring forth new leaves would not pass away until ALL THESE THINGS be fulfilled.

Matthew 24

Jesus said the generation that sees the abomination of desolation will see the second coming. Now as to whether the fig tree is a symbol of Israel or not is perhaps debatable but...

Amos 8

Fig is summer fruit. So yes, the figs being ready for harvest is a marker for the end times. When they're ripe for harvest the end comes and God will no longer pass by them anymore.

So the end will be when that generation turns 400 years old?

When Jesus said, then cometh the end, that is when the end happens.

 

[Jamdoc]

So the end will be when that generation turns 400 years old?

When Jesus said, then cometh the end, that is when the end happens.

who said anything about 400 years old? We saw the fig tree bring forth new leaves already, so when that generation is ripe, then the end comes.
could be soon.

 

[Timtofly]

who said anything about 400 years old? We saw the fig tree bring forth new leaves already, so when that generation is ripe, then the end comes.
could be soon.

Then Jesus did declare the end. There was not a 400 year margin of error.

You made it seem like no one could know even after 1900 years from the time Jesus was on the earth.