Revelation 12

jgr

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Thanks for posting this. As BABerean2 was kind enough to point out, there will come a day when Israel will come to know Christ as savior and Lord. It will happen just as prophesied.

So as we can see Israel is not the Church. However, there will come a time......after the pretribulation rapture.......when God will deal with His people, Israel, and they will recognize Jesus as the Christ.

The whole world will recognize Jesus as the Christ?

Abraham lineage
DNA Tests Could Fulfill God’s Promise to Abraham by Revealing Millions of Jews. But How Jewish is Jewish Enough?
Israel in all of Us? Research finds 'Jewish genes' in unusual places

Arabs of Jewish Descent in Israel
Tracing the lost tribes to Jewish communities in Africa
Nigeria's Igbo Jews: 'Lost tribe' of Israel? - CNN
http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/...-africa-has-jewish-roots-genetic-tests-reveal
https://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/...her-claims-proof-of-tribe-of-Ephraim-in-India
https://www.jta.org/2013/05/23/life...bush-bani-israel-tribe-claims-jewish-heritage

Example of the mathematical confirmation of ancestral genetic ubiquity

That's an old heterodoxy.

Its name is universalism.
 
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Douggg

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BABerean2

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I find the whole subject a denial of reality that parts of Ezekiel 37 have been fulfilled, Israel a nation again, and Jerusalem in the hands of the Jews - for the sake of preserving covenant theology's position that the church has replaced Israel.

Basically a waste of time, and a distraction from the real issues of what is coming upon the world in short order.

Some of us cannot tell the difference between the Baal worshipers and the faithful remnant.


Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.



.
 
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jgr

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I find the whole subject a denial of reality that parts of Ezekiel 37 have been fulfilled, Israel a nation again, and Jerusalem in the hands of the Jews - for the sake of preserving covenant theology's position that the church has replaced Israel.

Basically a waste of time, and a distraction from the real issues of what is coming upon the world in short order.
I've provided the genetic definition of Jews/Israel. It is every person on earth. The Jewish community itself agrees, applauds, endorses, and promotes this reality.

Is your definition different?

Therefore, some of those on earth are the nation of Israel (no different from any other nation), and some of those in that nation live in Jerusalem (no different from any others who live in a city within their nation).
 
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Douggg

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I've provided the genetic definition of Jews/Israel. It is every person on earth. The Jewish community itself agrees, applauds, endorses, and promotes this reality.

Is your definition different?

Therefore, some of those on earth are the nation of Israel (no different from any other nation), and some of those in that nation live in Jerusalem (no different from any others who live in a city within their nation).
It is not up to me to define who is Jews/Israel. God by the fulfillment of His prophecies, Himself defines who they are. It is a waste of time to get bogged down in it - when the whole issue being brought up is to preserve covenant theology's misguided notion that the church has become Israel, and that Christians by virtue of receiving Christ have become Jews.
 
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jgr

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It is not up to me to define who is Jews/Israel. God by the fulfillment of His prophecies, Himself defines who they are. It is a waste of time to get bogged down in it - when the whole issue being brought up is to preserve covenant theology's misguided notion that the church has become Israel, and that Christians by virtue of receiving Christ have become Jews.
God's definition of a Jew of course has nothing to do with genetics.

But His identification criteria are unambiguous.

Romans 2
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

The only place you'll find those Jews is in His Church.

They are the Israel of God. (Galatians 6:16)
 
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Seville90210

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I've provided the genetic definition of Jews/Israel. It is every person on earth. The Jewish community itself agrees, applauds, endorses, and promotes this reality.

Is your definition different?

Therefore, some of those on earth are the nation of Israel (no different from any other nation),

"Every person on earth" is not the same as "some of those on earth."

Your inconsistency shows a lack of conviction in your argument. In other words, you have no idea what you're talking about.
 
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jgr

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"Every person on earth" is not the same as "some of those on earth."

Your inconsistency shows a lack of conviction in your argument. In other words, you have no idea what you're talking about.

Our Jewish sibling mathematicians know what they're talking about.

They'd be most offended to hear that you, who profess to love them, don't believe them.

In the dispensational camp, that should qualify as sin.
 
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claninja

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Just asking opinions.
1. Who is the woman? How do you conclude your response?

The woman is Israel
Revelation 12:1 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.
Genesis 37:9 Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. “Listen,” he said, “I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.”

The woman is Israel
Revelation 12:5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” a And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne
John 4:22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.

2. Who is the dragon making war with? Is it the church, or someone else and why do you think so.
Rev 12
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

the offspring of the woman, the church

3. When in Revelation does the dragon get cast to the earth? Is it Revelation 1, Revelation 10, Revelation 16 etc.

The Dragon is not mentioned as specifically being "cast to earth" in any chapter of revelation outside of revelation 12. However, there are similarities between Revelation 12 and Revelation 20.

The Dragon is bound for 1000 years/cast out of heaven
Revelation 12:9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray
Revelation 20:1-2 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years

When the Dragon is bound for 1000 years/cast out of heaven, Christ's kingdom comes
Revelation 12:10-11 “NOW HAVE COME the salvation and the power and the KINGDOM of our God, and the authority of his Messiah. For the accuser of our brothers and sisters, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down. They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much
as to shrink from death.
Revelation 20:4 Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years

After the 1000 years of satan being bound/After Satan is cast our of heaven, his time is short
Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea; with great fury the devil has come down to you, knowing he has only a short time.”
Revelation 20:3 After that he must be released for a little while.

After Satan is bound for 1000 years/After Satan is cast our of Heaven, he goes off to make war with the saints
Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was enraged at the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
Revelation 20:7-9 When the thousand years are complete, Satan will be released from his prison, 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to assemble them for battle. Their number is like the sand of the seashore. And they marched across the broad expanse of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. But fire came down from heavena and consumed them

When is the dragon cast out?
When Jesus ascends:

John 12:31-32 Now judgment is upon this world; now the prince of this world will be cast out. 32And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself

When does the dragon come?
When Jesus goes to the Father

John 14:28-30 If you loved Me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father, because the Father is greater than I. 29And now I have told you before it happens, so that when it does happen, you will believe. I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming, and he has no claim on Me


4. Does the dragon make war with the woman before the tribulation, in the middle of the tribulation or after the tribulation?

The dragon "attempts" to pursue/persecute the woman, BUT the woman escapes from the dragon's presence and is nourished for 3.5 years.
Revelation 12:13-14 And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle to fly from the presence of the serpent to her place in the wilderness, where she was nourished for a time, and times, and half a time.

When the Dragon fails to persecute the woman for 3.5 years, the Dragon becomes enraged and goes off to make war against her offspring.
Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was enraged at the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

What are your opinions on these verses?

Revelation 12 tells the story of the birth of Christ, coming from Israel (the woman), and his ascension to the right hand of the Father (caught up to the throne). Upon Christ's ascension, Satan is cast out. Satan attempts to the persecute the woman (Israel) for 1260 days/time, times, half a time (3.5 years), but is unsuccessful as the woman (Israel) is nourished away from his presence. This 3.5 years is the time from Christ's death, resurrection, and ascension until the stoning of Stephen. After this 3.5 year period, the gospel goes to the surrounding nations and satan goes off to make war against the offspring (the church).

Acts 8:1,4
And Saul approved of their killing him (Stephen). On that day a great persecution broke out against the church in Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria. Those who had been scattered preached the word wherever they went
 
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The woman is Israel

rev 12
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

the offspring of the woman, the church

The remnant of the woman's seed is not the church like most people think. The remnant of Israels seed is those that flee when the abomination of desolation is set up. They keep the commandments of God and at that time have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
 
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keras

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It is not up to me to define who is Jews/Israel. God by the fulfillment of His prophecies, Himself defines who they are. It is a waste of time to get bogged down in it - when the whole issue being brought up is to preserve covenant theology's misguided notion that the church has become Israel, and that Christians by virtue of receiving Christ have become Jews.
No one argues that the Church becomes the Jewish State of Israel.

The question is: Who is the true Israel? We know the answer; it is every born again Christian, the Lord's chosen people, 1 Peter 2:9-10, and those bought by His blood, Revelation 5:9-10.
THEY are the faithful Israel of God, Galatians 6:14-16, His Overcomers, literally: Israelites.
With that truth in mind, the prophesies make sense and we can know our destiny; how the Lord promises to save and Bless all who put their trust in Him. Jeremiah 17:7-8

The idea that the Jewish people still have God's favour, is sadly mistaken. They have had nearly 2000 years of God's grace for them to accept their Messiah. This has not and will not happen, as Jesus knew they wouldn't. That is why He said that He would save the lost House of Israel. the other ten tribes, still in exile, who have largely accepted Jesus and are now His Overcomers, literally; the Israelites of God.

But the true Israelites of God are every faithful Christian, from every tribe, race, nation and language. That is how it has been from the beginning; the congregation, the ekkelasia; the church of faithful believers, from Abel, to Elijah's 7000, to the few survivors after 40 years in the desert, to the Pilgrim Fathers, to todays genuine Christian believers.
 
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Douggg

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No one argues that the Church becomes the Jewish State of Israel.

The question is: Who is the true Israel? We know the answer; it is every born again Christian, the Lord's chosen people, 1 Peter 2:9-10, and those bought by His blood, Revelation 5:9-10.
THEY are the faithful Israel of God, Galatians 6:14-16, His Overcomers, literally: Israelites.
With that truth in mind, the prophesies make sense and we can know our destiny; how the Lord promises to save and Bless all who put their trust in Him. Jeremiah 17:7-8

The idea that the Jewish people still have God's favour, is sadly mistaken. They have had nearly 2000 years of God's grace for them to accept their Messiah. This has not and will not happen, as Jesus knew they wouldn't. That is why He said that He would save the lost House of Israel. the other ten tribes, still in exile, who have largely accepted Jesus and are now His Overcomers, literally; the Israelites of God.

But the true Israelites of God are every faithful Christian, from every tribe, race, nation and language. That is how it has been from the beginning; the congregation, the ekkelasia; the church of faithful believers, from Abel, to Elijah's 7000, to the few survivors after 40 years in the desert, to the Pilgrim Fathers, to todays genuine Christian believers.
New Jerusalem...

Revelation 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

The Jews, Israel, now not yet believers in Jesus, will become believers during the middle part of the seven years.
 
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BABerean2

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New Jerusalem...

Revelation 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

The Jews, Israel, now yet believers in Jesus, will become believers during the middle part of the seven years.

Who was James addressing at the beginning of his letter?

Jas 1:1 James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad: Greetings.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials,
Jas 1:3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience.


There is no 7 year tribulation period in the Bible.

It is produced by adding together two of the references to the 42 months in the Book of Revelation, or by ripping Daniel 9:27 out of its New Covenant context.

The Second Coming is found with the 7th trumpet and "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:15-18.

The Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.

.
 
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Douggg

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There is no 7 year tribulation period in the Bible.

It is produced by adding together two of the references to the 42 months in the Book of Revelation, or by ripping Daniel 9:27 out of its New Covenant context.
Actually, where I think all that came from because I hear it the term the
"tribulation" was popularized by well known commentators of the Pre-trib position is from them - to represent the 70th week. It is misleading in my opinion. But it is hard for them to give up on the term "Pre-trib" to a more accurate either Pre-70th week or Pre-7 years.

I was watching a Lamb-Lion ministries You Tube video, the other night, David Regan and as his guest he had Terry James and Todd Strandberg the founder of Rapture Ready - and they were saying "the tribulation" at every turn.

Pre-wrath commentator Robert Van Kampen points out that "the tribulation" is not a bible term, so he says he uses 70th week and/or the 7 years - exactly the same as I do - for the same reason.
 
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BABerean2

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Pre-wrath commentator Robert Van Kampen points out that "the tribulation" is not a bible term, so he says he uses 70th week and/or the 7 years - exactly the same as I do - for the same reason.

I held to the "Pre-wrath" position at one time in the past.
I read Van Kampen's book, and Rosenthal's book, after I discovered the pretrib view did not agree with scripture.
I gave up "Pre-wrath" when I came to the realization that there is no 7 year tribulation period in the Bible.

However, the term "Pre-wrath" is somewhat accurate, because the Church will be gathered to Christ at his Second Coming, right before the wrath of God is poured out on unbelievers.
Pretribbers have redefined the word "tribulation" as the word "wrath", even though they are two different Greek words.

There is a 70 week of Daniel found in the Bible.
It is found in Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18, which was a period of about 7 years when the Gospel was taken "first" to Daniel's people, before Paul began his ministry to the Gentiles.

If Van Kampen believed in a future 70th week of Daniel, he traded one error for another.


Daniel Chapter 9: Dr. Kelly Varner

.
 
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Douggg

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I gave up "Pre-wrath" when I came to the realization that there is no 7 year tribulation period in the Bible.
I think you mean 7 years left in Daniel 9's 70th week. Bab2, you are beating a dead horse calling the 70th week - 7 year tribulation period.
Pretribbers have redefined the word "tribulation" as the word "wrath", even though they are two different Greek words.
No, no that's not it. In Pre-trib thinking, to them, the revealing of the man of sin is when he confirms a peace treaty for 7 years.... that 7 years is what they are calling the tribulation period.
There is a 70 week of Daniel found in the Bible.
It is found in Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18, which was a period of about 7 years when the Gospel was taken "first" to Daniel's people, before Paul began his ministry to the Gentiles.
That is a constructed 7 years - which is not the 70th week. It is just as wrong as calling the 70th week - the tribulation period.

The confirming of the covenant for 7 years, is the confirming of the Mt. Sinai covenant for 7 years, by the prince who shall come. That starts the 70th week. Then you go to Revelation for the break down into segments of the 70th week, everything that takes place during that timeline.
 
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claninja

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The remnant of the woman's seed is not the church like most people think.

Jesus, the offspring of the woman, states that WHOEVER does the will of my Father is my brother and sister.
Matthew 12:49-50 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

The remnant of Israels seed is those that flee when the abomination of desolation is set up.

Those who flee are believers, the body of Christ, the church, the true Israel
acts 8:1
And Saul approved of their killing him. On that day a great persecution broke out against the CHURCH in Jerusalem,

hey keep the commandments of God and at that time have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

These are believers, the body of Christ, the Church, the true Israel.
 
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Jesus, the offspring of the woman, states that WHOEVER does the will of my Father is my brother and sister.
Matthew 12:49-50 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

Those who flee are believers, the body of Christ, the church, the true Israel
acts 8:1
And Saul approved of their killing him. On that day a great persecution broke out against the CHURCH in Jerusalem,

These are believers, the body of Christ, the Church, the true Israel.

The church is mentioned 19 times in the first 3 chapters of Revelation. What happens after that. John doesn't mention them again until we see them in heaven in Rev 19. This is because they are raptured pre trib.

The remnant of the womans seed is not the Church. It is those that are alive in the nation of Israel.





I
 
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The Jews, Israel, now not yet believers in Jesus, will become believers during the middle part of the seven years.
Unsupported opinion, made to suit the false belief of a general Jewish redemption.
Only a remnant of Judah will join their Christian brethren, as all of the Lord's people live in all of the holy Land before the last seven years.
At the mid point, 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns, half of the Christians - the ones who kept their faith in God, Daniel 11:32, will be taken to a place of safety on earth. The rest must remain in the Land. Revelation 12:17

Please BaBerean, give us a break from Dr Kelly Varner, +++ I doubt that anyone here actually watches videos like them.
It is your beliefs, supported by relevant scripture that you need to post here.
And you can deny the future 70th 'week', as much as you like, but your 'proofs' of its past fulfilment just don't wash.
 
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