Revelation 12

[keras]

The church is mentioned 19 times in the first 3 chapters of Revelation. What happens after that. John doesn't mention them again until we see them in heaven in Rev 19. This is because they are raptured pre trib.

Until you provide a scripture that says; God will take His people to heaven, or similar, then I will continue to call the 'rapture to heaven' a false teaching and a Satanic lie.
Revelation 19:1-3 is plainly about the martyrs killed for their faith, their souls are in heaven, as we are told in Revelation 6:9-11. They praise God for taking vengeance on their killers.

God's holy people ARE seen on earth during the end times. Revelation 13:7, paralleled by Daniel 7:25 And do not think there are two peoples of God. John 17:20-23, Ephesians 4:4-6

 

[keras]

Revelation 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

Do the Jewish people represent all the 12 tribes of Israel? They do not, so why do you post this?

 

[Douggg]

Do the Jewish people represent all the 12 tribes of Israel? They do not, so why do you post this?

I post it to show how wrong you are.

Revelation 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

 

[BABerean2]

I post it to show how wrong you are.

Revelation 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

Jas 1:1 James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad: Greetings.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials,
Jas 1:3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience.

.

 

[keras]

I post it to show how wrong you are.

Revelation 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

God alone knows who and where each of the twelve tribes are today.
In no way does the Jewish State of Israel represent all of them.

Calling a person wrong in their beliefs, requires absolute proof of error. You have not provided that by quoting Rev 21:12, which simply describes the new Jerusalem.
You are therefore; an accuser of the brethren as well as a false teacher.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Jas 1:1 James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad: Greetings.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials,
Jas 1:3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience.

.

The "Disporia"

1290. diaspora dee-as-por-ah' from 1289;
dispersion, i.e. (specially and concretely) the (converted) Israelite resident in Gentile countries:--(which are) scattered (abroad).
1223. dia dee-ah' a primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; through
4701. spora spor-ah' from 4687;
a sowing, i.e. (by implication) parentage:--seed.

The 70 ad Disporia

Luke 21:24
And they shall be falling to mouth of sword
and they shall be being led captive into all the nations............

Another Disporia:

Revelation 13:10
If any to-captivity into captivity is going away.
If any in sword to be killed, is binding him in sword to be killed.
Here is the endurance and the faith of the saints.

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
The Destruction of Jerusalem

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover................

Of the Jews destroyed during the siege, Josephus reckons not less than ONE MILLION AND ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND, .....
Of the captives the whole was about NINETY-SEVEN THOUSAND.

........the tallest and most beautiful youths, together with several of the Jewish nobles were reserved by Titus to grace his triumphal entry into Rome.
After this selection, all above the age of seventeen were sent in chains into Egypt, to be employed there as slaves,
or distributed throughout the empire to be sacrificed as gladiators in the amphitheatres ;
whilst those who were under this age, were exposed to sale.[Deuteronomy 28:68]

Deuteronomy 28:
15 If, however, you do not obey Yahweh thy Elohiym by carefully following all His commandments and statutes I am giving you today,
all these curses will come upon you and overtake you:
67
In the morning you will say, ‘If only it were evening!’ and in the evening you will say, ‘If only it were morning!’—because of the dread in your hearts of the terrifying sights you will see.
68
“And Yahweh will take you back to Egypt in ships, by the way of which I said to you, ‘You shall never see it again.'
And there you shall be offered for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves, but no one will buy you.”

 

[Choose Wisely]

Until you provide a scripture that says; God will take His people to heaven, or similar, then I will continue to call the 'rapture to heaven' a false teaching and a Satanic lie.
Revelation 19:1-3 is plainly about the martyrs killed for their faith, their souls are in heaven, as we are told in Revelation 6:9-11. They praise God for taking vengeance on their killers.

God's holy people ARE seen on earth during the end times. Revelation 13:7, paralleled by Daniel 7:25 And do not think there are two peoples of God. John 17:20-23, Ephesians 4:4-6

Seen plenty of verses quoted regarding the rapture. You seem to have a problem accepting the obvious. Nothing anyone can do about that.

As for the two peoples of God that some of you characters want to waste everyone's time about, are there not the 12 tribes of Israel and the Gentiles? And no, I'm not saying that the 12 tribes can be saved without Christ. It's all just a matter of timing. I'm certainly not sure why some of you can't grasp that concept.

 

[keras]

Seen plenty of verses quoted regarding the rapture. You seem to have a problem accepting the obvious. Nothing anyone can do about that.

As for the two peoples of God that some of you characters want to waste everyone's time about, are there not the 12 tribes of Israel and the Gentiles? And no, I'm not saying that the 12 tribes can be saved without Christ. It's all just a matter of timing. I'm certainly not sure why some of you can't grasp that concept.

What you should be able to do about it, is provide an actual verse that says God will take His people to heaven, or similar.
I would be perfectly happy to believe in the rapture, if only you would do that simple thing for me.
But I know you can't, you rely on assumptions, inferences and straight out mis-application of scripture to support the 'rapture to heaven' doctrine.

If only you and all who have been fooled by the rapture theory, knew the fantastic Plans God does have for His people, you would renounce it and be prepared for a short time of hardship and testing, 1 Peter 4:12, then for the amazing blessings of God to His faithful Christian people.

 

[BABerean2]

And no, I'm not saying that the 12 tribes can be saved without Christ. It's all just a matter of timing. I'm certainly not sure why some of you can't grasp that concept.

It is your claim that modern Jews will be saved outside of the Church, which is one of the biggest errors of your Two Peoples of God doctrine.

The only way to make the doctrine work is by ignoring certain passages of scripture.

The purpose of the Pretrib doctrine is to get the Church off the planet so that God can go back and deal with modern Israel under the Old Covenant system.
(Read the book "Things to Come", by Dr. Dwight Pentecost, if you have not read it.)

Meanwhile thousands of Orthodox Jews die each year without Christ, while you wait on the Pretrib rapture, and the time that God will go back and deal with the nation of Israel...

.

 

[iamlamad]

What are your opinions on these verses?

Revelation 12
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.



Just asking opinions.
1. Who is the woman? How do you conclude your response?

2. Who is the dragon making war with? Is it the church, or someone else and why do you think so.
Rev 12
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

3. When in Revelation does the dragon get cast to the earth? Is it Revelation 1, Revelation 10, Revelation 16 etc.

4. Does the dragon make war with the woman before the tribulation, in the middle of the tribulation or after the tribulation?

5. Any other details you can add that you notice?

Thanks

The woman is Israel. Period and end of all arguments.
Chapter 12 is a midpoint chapter. It is a second or two after the abomination that divides the week (except for verses 1-5 about Jesus' birth and as a child - written as a parenthesis). Verse 6 are those in Judea fleeing just as Jesus told them to.

The war is triggered by the 7th trumpet. Michael has been waiting for that trumpet to finally take Satan down. It will be a midpoint war - make no mistake about it.

The abomination event will be marked in heaven by the sounding of the 7th trumpet marking the midpoint of the week.

The dragon goes first after the Jews that flee - but then turns on the remnant (remnant because the main load went out pretrib) of those that love Jesus.

In truth, this chapter is about the Dragon - mentioned 32 times. In particular what the Dragon would be doing during the last half of the week. But Jesus CHOSE to show John what the dragon did when He was born - how he got King Herod to attempt to murder Him. Virgo is about Christ's birth, not about anything in 2017. What we saw in 2017 may be a sign - but of what? Only that we are at the end.

 

[iamlamad]

What you should be able to do about it, is provide an actual verse that says God will take His people to heaven, or similar.
I would be perfectly happy to believe in the rapture, if only you would do that simple thing for me.
But I know you can't, you rely on assumptions, inferences and straight out mis-application of scripture to support the 'rapture to heaven' doctrine.

If only you and all who have been fooled by the rapture theory, knew the fantastic Plans God does have for His people, you would renounce it and be prepared for a short time of hardship and testing, 1 Peter 4:12, then for the amazing blessings of God to His faithful Christian people.

It's OK, Keras! If you don't want to go, God won't force you! Feel free to remain behind. The rest of us are very happy interpreting John 14 as a trip to heaven. We believe that was the Author's intent.

 

[iamlamad]

Rev 12
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


Yes, the remnant of her seed are Jews and they now have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Which proves again that Israel is not the Church.

We already had enough information when BABerean2 was kind enough to make his post. This just solidifies the information that he provided. Israel is not the Church.


.

I think it is possible - maybe probable - that the remnant is the remnant of the Gentiles who got left behind at the pretrib rapture. Millions are going to get left behind.

 

[Choose Wisely]

It is your claim that modern Jews will be saved outside of the Church, which is one of the biggest errors of your Two Peoples of God doctrine.

The church is raptured to heaven. Then God turns his attention to His ELECT. They are saved by faith in Christ their Messiah. You try to create a problem when there is none.

The only way to make the doctrine work is by ignoring certain passages of scripture.

You are talking to the wrong guy. I don't need to ignore anything. Meanwhile you are ignoring the nation of Israel with your doctrine. You are ignoring Jerusalem with your doctrine. And you will be ignoring the third temple when it is built. There doesn't seem anything can wake you from your ignore---ance.

The purpose of the Pretrib doctrine is to get the Church off the planet so that God can go back and deal with modern Israel under the Old Covenant system.
(Read the book "Things to Come", by Dr. Dwight Pentecost, if you have not read it.).

Hey read the book "I ate tuna every day for a year and can now swim twice as fast" Translation.....Who cares what somebody wrote. It doesn't affect me one bit.

Meanwhile thousands of Orthodox Jews die each year without Christ, while you wait on the Pretrib rapture, and the time that God will go back and deal with the nation of Israel...
.

Or maybe I realize......I will bless those that bless you and curse those that curse you.

 

[claninja]

The church is mentioned 19 times in the first 3 chapters of Revelation. What happens after that.

Absence of evidence is not evidence, it's a logical fallacy known an argument from ignorance.

John doesn't mention them again until we see them in heaven in Rev 19.

I disagree. The first century Church was a kind of first fruits of God's creation.

Revelation 14:4 They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb

James 1:18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, to be a kind of firstfruits of His creation.

The remnant of the womans seed is not the Church. It is those that are alive in the nation of Israel.

Was Jesus of the seed of the woman?
Revelation 12:5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter;

Would her seed not be the siblings/brothers/sisters of Jesus?
Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was enraged at the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

So you disagree that WHOEVER does the will of the Father is Jesus' brother and sister?
Matthew 12:49-50 Pointing to His disciples, He said, “Here are My mother and My brothers. For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”

 

[Choose Wisely]

Absence of evidence is not evidence, it's a logical fallacy known an argument from ignorance.

Agreed, it's certainly not proof; but it ought to make you tilt your head and wonder why.

I disagree. The first century Church was a kind of first fruits of God's creation.

Revelation 14:4 They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb

Wow, now that's a stretch. So are you saying that the first century church is the 144,000........12,000 from each tribe..............that hasn't happened yet?????

Was Jesus of the seed of the woman?
Revelation 12:5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter;

Sure

Would her seed not be the siblings/brothers/sisters of Jesus?
Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was enraged at the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

So you disagree that WHOEVER does the will of the Father is Jesus' brother and sister?
Matthew 12:49-50 Pointing to His disciples, He said, “Here are My mother and My brothers. For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”

Nice.

However, since the powers of the heavens are shaken and Satan and his angels fall to the earth in Rev 6... he won't find the church around as we are not appointed to wrath. I understand that just zipped past you like an F35 but it is what it is. Maybe you can pick a fume or two.

 

[claninja]

Agreed, it's certainly not proof; but it ought to make you tilt your head and wonder why.

Your reasoning seems to be that because the Greek word "church" is not mentioned between revelation 4 and 21, then the church is not subject of revelation 4-21. However, what makes up the church? Believers, Jew and gentile, do. Believers are mentioned multiple times between Revelation 4 and revelation 21.

You don't believe the servants of God are the Church/Body of Christ?
Revelation 1:1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.

Revelation 6:11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, e were killed just as they had been.

Revelation 7:3 Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God

Paul was a servant of Jesus and also part of the body of Christ, which is the Church.
Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God

Wow, now that's a stretch. So are you saying that the first century church is the 144,000........12,000 from each tribe..............that hasn't happened yet?????

I am just repeating James, who specifically states that the first century church was the first fruits of all He created:
James 1:18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a certain firstfruits of all he created.

Also, Paul states that the Church was redeemed
1 Corinthians 7:23 For he who was called in the Lord as a bondservant is a freedman of the Lord. Likewise he who was free when called is a bondservant of Christ. You were redeemed with a price; do not become bondservants of men.

The 1st century church was the first fruits. Do you disagree that the 1st century church was the first fruits redeemed from mankind?
Revelation 14:4 These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb

Sure

Great, we agree that Jesus was born/is the seed of the woman in Revelation 12.
Would you consider believers, who do the will of the Father, brothers and sisters of Christ?

However, since the powers of the heavens are shaken and Satan and his angels fall to the earth in Rev 6... he won't find the church around as we are not appointed to wrath.

I agree the Church/believers/body of Christ are not appointed to suffer wrath:
1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God has not appointed us to suffer wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

The church IS mentioned in Revelation 6 and the Church IS mentioned as being killed during the 5th seal. The persecution of Church, however, is not the wrath of God, would you agree?
Revelation 6:11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their BROTHERS (ἀδελφός) should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

BROTHERS (ἀδελφός): Usage: a brother, member of the same religious community, ESPECIALLY a fellow-Christian.

The 5th seal correlates with the persecution of the Church in the Olivet discourse:
Matthew 24:9-10 Then they will hand you over to be persecuted and killed, and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name. At that time many will fall away and will betray and hate one another

The 6th seal, wrath of the lamb, correlates with the destruction of Jerusalem in the Olivet discourse
Revelation 6:12-13,16 When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale. calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb,

Matthew 24:29-30 Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Luke 23:28-30 But turning to them Jesus said, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. For behold, the days are coming when they will say, ‘Blessed are the barren and the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed!’ Then they will begin to say to the mountains, ‘Fall on us,’ and to the hills, ‘Cover us.

And as you stated, and I agree, the Church is not appointed to this wrath, thus Christ warns them to flee:
Matthew 24:15-16 So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains

I understand that just zipped past you like an F35 but it is what it is. Maybe you can pick a fume or two.

No need to be rude, fellow brother in Christ.

 

[BABerean2]

No need to be rude, fellow brother in Christ.

He was nice for a couple of days, but sadly it did not last.

.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Choose Wisely said: ↑
I understand that just zipped past you like an F35 but it is what it is. Maybe you can pick a fume or two.

Back at ya...........

No need to be rude, fellow brother in Christ.

He was nice for a couple of days, but sadly it did not last.
.

I get that a lot from Futurists.............

Deuteronomy 7:20
“Moreover, Yahweh thy Elohim will send the hornet among them until those who are left, who hide themselves from you, are destroyed

LLoJ's prototype mid-east offensive F18 Hornet:

I could really use more input on this thread:

LUKE, REVELATION AND JERSALEM 70AD CONTROVERSY

 

[Choose Wisely]

The 1st century church was the first fruits. Do you disagree that the 1st century church was the first fruits redeemed from mankind?
Revelation 14:4 These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb

Rev 14:4 is about the 144000 first fruits from the 12 tribes.

The church IS mentioned in Revelation 6 and the Church IS mentioned as being killed during the 5th seal. The persecution of Church, however, is not the wrath of God, would you agree?

Yes, I agree that the persecution of the church is not the wrath of God. On a side note, there is no mention of the church being killed in the 5th seal.

The 5th seal correlates with the persecution of the Church in the Olivet discourse:

Matthew 24:9-10 Then they will hand you over to be persecuted and killed, and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name. At that time many will fall away and will betray and hate one another

This is not talking about the church. It is the time of Jacobs trouble. The church has been raptured before any seals are opened.

The 6th seal, wrath of the lamb, correlates with the destruction of Jerusalem in the Olivet discourse
Revelation 6:12-13,16 When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale. calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb,

Matthew 24:29-30 Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Gotta give you five stars for this. Most people don't recognize that these are the same events, no matter how obvious it is. It's because they can't figure out the order of revelation so nothing fits right.

And as you stated, and I agree, the Church is not appointed to this wrath, thus Christ warns them to flee:
Matthew 24:15-16 So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains

This is not talking about the church. This is instructions for those in the nation of Israel. Those that flee as instructed become the remnant that the dragon seeks war with.

 

[Choose Wisely]

It is a second or two after the abomination that divides the week

Daniel 9
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Daniel 12
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Daniel 12
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

.[/QUOTE]
So the daily sacrifice is taken away in the midst of the week.

And from the time the daily sacrifice is taken away and the abomination that maketh desolate set up there shall be 1290 days.

Is that 1290 days after the daily sacrifice is taken away until the abomination of desolation is set up or 1290 days until what?

Then there shall be 1335 days.

All the while there is times, time and half a time which is 1260 days which does not agree with any of that.

Thoughts?