Futurist Only Rev 13's Living Image is not the Abomination of Desolation

[tranquil]

The famous Revelation 13 'living image' from the False Prophet (Revelation 13:14-15) is not the abomination of desolation spoken of by Jesus Christ in Matthew 24:15.

What this means in practical terms is that there are either:

• multiple abomination of desolation idols,
  
• multiple instances of people worshiping the same abomination idol,
  
• multiple instances of the same abomination of desolation idol being worshiped by different groups of people

This premise is easy to prove. Here is an abridged version of Revelation 12 & 13:

1 And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. 2 She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth. 3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. 4 His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it. 5 She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, 6 and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days.

13 And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time. 15 The serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, to sweep her away with a flood. 16 But the earth came to the help of the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river that the dragon had poured from his mouth. 17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.

1 And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads. 2 And the beast that I saw was like a leopard; its feet were like a bear’s, and its mouth was like a lion’s mouth. And to it the dragon gave his power and his throne and great authority. 3 One of its heads seemed to have a mortal wound, but its mortal wound was healed, and the whole earth marveled as they followed the beast. 4 And they worshiped the dragon, for he had given his authority to the beast, and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast, and who can fight against it?”

5 And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months.

11 Then I saw another beast rising out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb and it spoke like a dragon. 12 It exercises all the authority of the first beast in its presence,c and makes the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose mortal wound was healed. 13 It performs great signs, even making fire come down from heaven to earth in front of people, 14 and by the signs that it is allowed to work in the presence of the beast it deceives those who dwell on earth, telling them to make an image for the beast that was wounded by the sword and yet lived. 15 And it was allowed to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast might even speak and might cause those who would not worship the image of the beast to be slain.​

As you can see, there is the 'sign of the son of man in heaven' in Rev 12:1, then the dragon is attacking the woman, she flees into the wilderness, then the dragon goes to war with Christians and gives his throne to the beast from the sea. The beast from the earth then makes an image of the mortally head wounded individual, the 'antichrist'.

Now let's compare this to Matthew 24

15 So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’ described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop come down to retrieve anything from his house. 18 And let no one in the field return for his cloak. 19 How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not occur in the winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. 22 If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short. 23 At that time, if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There He is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect, if that were possible. 25 See, I have told you in advance.

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
​

As you can see, the abomination of desolation comes to Judea, there is 'great tribulation', and then immediately after the 'tribulation of those days', the 'sign of the Son of Man' appears and the elect are gathered.

This fits with what is described in Revelation: after the 'great tribulation' has begun at the 1st Trumpet (with the faithful having 'come out of the great tribulation' in Revelation 7:14) at Sukkot/ Feast of Tabernacles, then there is the 'winter Sabbath' 'great tribulation' (Matthew 24:20-21) five months later at the 6th Trumpet. Then the 6th Trumpet war occurs, and then the peace covenant at Revelation 10:1 (symbolized by the rainbow after the 'flood' of armies for 5 months/ 150 days). Then the 2 witnesses prophecy for 1260 days and then they are gathered just before the 7th Trumpet. Then comes the 'sign of the Son of Man' in Revelation 12:1.

Then the dragon attacks the woman, she flees to the wilderness, and the dragon makes war on Christians. The dragon gives his throne to the beast from the sea and the beast from the earth makes the image of the mortally head wounded 'antichrist'.

The upshot of all of this is to say, after the 1260 days of the 2 witnesses (after the end of the 2nd woe), the faithful will be expecting Jesus to come back, but will be tempted one last time with the Revelation 13 image from the False Prophet. Matthew 24:24 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.

 

[RandyPNW]

The famous Revelation 13 'living image' from the False Prophet (Revelation 13:14-15) is not the abomination of desolation spoken of by Jesus Christ in Matthew 24:15.

What this means in practical terms is that there are either:

• multiple abomination of desolation idols,
  
• multiple instances of people worshiping the same abomination idol,
  
• multiple instances of the same abomination of desolation idol being worshiped by different groups of people

I know you're asking for "futurists only," but I've been arguing that I'm a futurist even though I hold to the idea that the AoD in the Olivet Discourse was fulfilled in history. This is not a Preterist idea, though it's become associated with them. The general belief in the Early Church was that the Olivet Discourse spoke of the fall of the temple in 70 AD, and Preterism didn't even begin until modern history.

So it's a little disconcerting that you exclude non-futurists with the idea that you wish to exclude those who believe the AoD was the Roman Army, even though they are not Preterists. Perhaps that's not what you're doing?

Your sense that the Great Tribulation is to be associated with the Reign of Antichrist is mostly a modern idea, though I'm sure ancient views saw it this way, as well. But if you're to take Jesus literally, the Great Tribulation is equated with a "Jewish Punishment," which only began in 70 AD and continues throughout the NT age.

Most average Christian forums tend to see a kind of banding together to hold to popular modern viewpoints, though it's clear to me that many are studied, knowledgeable, and capable. So this inflexibility I see on the forums appears to be a matter of pride. I certainly hope you're more congenial than some I've seen lately?

You don't have to agree with me. But it's a forum, right? A good place to discuss differences in a brotherly way so that we can help each other be refined.

 

[tranquil]

I certainly hope you're more congenial than some I've seen lately?

I'm not. Don't respond.

 

[keras]

Yes, I do see the Abomination of Desolation; Daniel 9:27, which will be the sitting of the Anti-Christ in the Temple; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, as different from the image as described in Revelation 13:11-16.
But they are both during the 42 month time of world Satanic control.

The AoD commences that period and the Image is constructed later.

 

[Timtofly]

I agree. The AoD may never happen at all, ever. There was one that was fulfilled from Daniel. The future has not happened yet.

I disagree that the beast set up as an image and is given life "cannot be an abomination". I disagree with who is whom in Revelation 13. Every one has their guesses. Until it actually happens, no one is correct. If it happens, most will be wrong.

A futurists is still one who takes the future by faith. Not necessarily by dogmatic claims and/or predictions.

 

[tranquil]

I agree. The AoD may never happen at all, ever. There was one that was fulfilled from Daniel. The future has not happened yet.

I disagree that the beast set up as an image and is given life "cannot be an abomination". I disagree with who is whom in Revelation 13. Every one has their guesses. Until it actually happens, no one is correct. If it happens, most will be wrong.

A futurists is still one who takes the future by faith. Not necessarily by dogmatic claims and/or predictions.

Of course there will be an abomination, as that is the thing that kicks off the great tribulation. Surely, you don't think there will not be a great tribulation.

"I disagree that the beast set up as an image and is given life "cannot be an abomination"."
​

I'm not sure what you are referring to. The 'living image' is an abomination that causes desolation. My point is that the abomination Jesus is referring to in Matthew 24:15 is not/ cannot be the same abomination. Thus, there are multiple abominations of some sort - that's why there are 2 sets of 7 punishments (as in Leviticus 26:18's set of 7 punishments): the Trumpets & Bowls. An abomination sets off the Trumpets & an abomination sets off the Bowls.

Also, I do not subscribe to the preterist notion that Matt 24:15 is referring to 70 AD. We have not had 'great tribulation' for 2000 years. This would be obvious if it wasn't for the million preterist posts that flood eschatology forums.

 

[tranquil]

Yes, I do see the Abomination of Desolation; Daniel 9:27, which will be the sitting of the Anti-Christ in the Temple; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, as different from the image as described in Revelation 13:11-16.
But they are both during the 42 month time of world Satanic control.

The AoD commences that period and the Image is constructed later.

So you equate the 1st abomination (that triggers the 7 Trumpets) as being the antichrist sitting in the temple - but we don't know how many 'antichrists' there are. Jesus says that there will be multiple.

I disagree that both occur during 42 months. Where in Revelation does the abomination (as you define it) occur?

The Trumpets & the 5th Trumpet locusts are 'cutting off the daily sacrifices' (Joel 1). So the Trumpets and the 5 months of the 5th Trumpet has something to do with the 1290 days ('from the cutting off of the daily sacrifices and the abomination of desolation 1290 days' in Dan 12:11-12.

 

[tranquil]

Yes, I do see the Abomination of Desolation; Daniel 9:27, which will be the sitting of the Anti-Christ in the Temple; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, as different from the image as described in Revelation 13:11-16.
But they are both during the 42 month time of world Satanic control.

The AoD commences that period and the Image is constructed later.

Here is the real point I am getting at:

The abomination occurs at the 6th Seal/ 1st Trumpet, which starts God's wrath and the great tribulation. The 'locusts' are the 'people of the prince to come' who are destroying Israel (symbolic or literal - probably 'Ephraim'). The new Assyrian (symbolized by a lion in Jeremiah 50:17) is attacking 'Ephraim' with the 'locusts' with 'lion fangs'.

5 months later at the 6th Trumpet is the 'winter Sabbath' start of the great tribulation in Jerusalem (which I take this to be literal and/ or symbolically).

The 6th Trumpet war will only last for 150 days (a 'flood' of forces). At the end of this time frame is the arrival of the anointed one that comes at the end of the 62nd week in Daniel 9:25 (the end of 62 weeks from Jerusalem Day, the 'call to restore Jerusalem') (and simultaneously the death of the anointed one that came after 7 weeks in Dan 9:25). This is Daniel 11:22.

This the cutting short of the great tribulation and is the peace covenant indicated in Revelation 10:1's 'rainbow'. It is Babylon that has defeated the enemies of the great tribulation. The king of Babylon is the one confirming the covenant that ends this great tribulation. After 1260 days, the king of Babylon breaks the covenant and attacks Jerusalem after they had been living in peace due to the covenant (Daniel 11:41).

This is why both abominations do not happen within 42 months - they are being done by different people.

 

[keras]

So you equate the 1st abomination (that triggers the 7 Trumpets) as being the antichrist sitting in the temple - but we don't know how many 'antichrists' there are. Jesus says that there will be multiple.

Bible prophecy tells us there will be a man who Satan will confer his power onto. Revelation 13:3-4 refers to him as one of the heads of the 'beast'.

I disagree that both occur during 42 months. Where in Revelation does the abomination (as you define it) occur?

The AoD happens at the mid point of the last 7 years of this age. Revelation 12:7-9 is that point.

I do not see any of your other speculations as being correct.
The Great Tribulation will take place during that final 3 1/2 years. All as described and in the order Written, ending with the 6th and 7th Bowl; the battle of Armageddon, at the Return of Jesus.

 

[Douggg]

The famous Revelation 13 'living image' from the False Prophet (Revelation 13:14-15) is not the abomination of desolation spoken of by Jesus Christ in Matthew 24:15.

The statue image of the beast when first made is not a "living image".

Revelation 13:14 - the image is inanimate.

Revelation 13:15 - the image becomes a living image.

I will explain....



There are two events associated with the Antichrist/beast person and "desolation" of the temple from the worship and praise of the One True God there at the temple complex. Here is the sequence, tranquil....

1. the transgression of desolation - the Antichrist going into the temple sitting, claiming to have achieved God-hood.

1a. he is killed for it, and shortly brought back to life to become the beast.

2. the false prophet then has people of the world make a statue image of the beast. And it is placed on the temple mount courtyard, the holy place that Jesus talked about, readily visible for them in Judea to flee to the mountains. The statue image is the abomination of desolation, Revelation 13:14. It is NOT a living image at that time.

The transformation to a living image comes later, after Satan is cast down to earth with just a short time left.

2a. With the inanimate abomination of desolation in place, the two witnesses battle with the beast as the Jews flee. Calling down plagues upon the world, as they do so.

The beast is then able to overcome and kill the two witnesses, the plagued world rejoices, then three and half days later the two witnesses come back to life and ascend to heaven.

2b. the seventh angel sounds, there is the war in the second heaven and Satan and his angels cast down to earth.

2c. Satan at that time incarnates the statue image on the temple mount courtyard, making it appear to come alive - as it becomes a "living image", Revelation 13:15.

3. 1335 days after the image is first placed on the temple mount courtyard as the abomination of desolation, Jesus returns, to end the great tribulation. He melts the statue image, bursting it into flames, reducing it to a pile of ashes - exposing Satan on the temple mount for all to behold, fulfilling Ezekiel 28:16-19.

_____________________________________________________________

transgression of desolation - the act by the Antichrist, sitting in the temple.

abomination desolation - the statue image made and placed on the temple mount courtyard.

the living image - the abomination of desolation statue image transformed when incarnated by Satan.

 

[tranquil]

The statue image of the beast when first made is not a "living image".

Revelation 13:14 - the image is inanimate.

Revelation 13:15 - the image becomes a living image.

I will explain....



There are two events associated with the Antichrist/beast person and "desolation" of the temple from the worship and praise of the One True God there at the temple complex. Here is the sequence, tranquil....

1. the transgression of desolation - the Antichrist going into the temple sitting, claiming to have achieved God-hood.

1a. he is killed for it, and shortly brought back to life to become the beast.

2. the false prophet then has people of the world make a statue image of the beast. And it is placed on the temple mount courtyard, the holy place that Jesus talked about, readily visible for them in Judea to flee to the mountains. The statue image is the abomination of desolation, Revelation 13:14. It is NOT a living image at that time.

The transformation to a living image comes later, after Satan is cast down to earth with just a short time left.

2a. With the inanimate abomination of desolation in place, the two witnesses battle with the beast as the Jews flee. Calling down plagues upon the world, as they do so.

The beast is then able to overcome and kill the two witnesses, the plagued world rejoices, then three and half days later the two witnesses come back to life and ascend to heaven.

2b. the seventh angel sounds, there is the war in the second heaven and Satan and his angels cast down to earth.

2c. Satan at that time incarnates the statue image on the temple mount courtyard, making it appear to come alive - as it becomes a "living image", Revelation 13:15.

3. 1335 days after the image is first placed on the temple mount courtyard as the abomination of desolation, Jesus returns, to end the great tribulation. He melts the statue image, bursting it into flames, reducing it to a pile of ashes - exposing Satan on the temple mount for all to behold, fulfilling Ezekiel 28:16-19.

_____________________________________________________________

transgression of desolation - the act by the Antichrist, sitting in the temple.

abomination desolation - the statue image made and placed on the temple mount courtyard.

the living image - the abomination of desolation statue image transformed when incarnated by Satan.

"The statue image of the beast when first made is not a "living image".
Revelation 13:14 - the image is inanimate.
Revelation 13:15 - the image becomes a living image."​

As much as it pains me to say it, this is probably correct.

As to the sequence of events, I don't agree with this. Put simply, the abomination statue relates to the 1290 days & 1335 days. The 1260 days of the 2 witnesses are characterized by the first 1150 days having the statue. Then it is destroyed. Then at the 1260th day, then the king of Babylon breaks the covenant and makes Jerusalem worship the living version of the statue.

I'm still working out the details and will post it shortly. I feel like it is getting there.

 

[tranquil]

The AoD happens at the mid point of the last 7 years of this age. Revelation 12:7-9 is that point.

This is the point of the whole thread: the abomination of desolation of Matthew 24:15 occurs before the 'sign of the son of man in heaven'. The Rev 13 'living image' occurs after the 'sign of the son of man in heaven' (ie Revelation 12:1).

Thus, there must be 2 different meanings of the 'abomination of desolation', 2 different stages of the abomination, or 2 different 'abominations'.

As Doug has speculated, it probably means 2 different stages: a 'statue' version, then a 'living' version.

 

[keras]

As much as it pains me to say it, this is probably correct.

Why should understanding scriptural truths cause pain?

As to the sequence of events, I don't agree with this. Put simply, the abomination statue relates to the 1290 days & 1335 days.

Nothing to do with that statue.
The extra 30 days past Jesus Return is for Atonement and the 75 days is to the celebration of Hanukkah, the rededication of the Temple.

Who is the 'king of Babylon' and who will be living in Jerusalem then?

 

[tranquil]

Why should understanding scriptural truths cause pain?

Nothing to do with that statue.
The extra 30 days past Jesus Return is for Atonement and the 75 days is to the celebration of Hanukkah, the rededication of the Temple.

Who is the 'king of Babylon' and who will be living in Jerusalem then?

Why should understanding scriptural truths cause pain?
​

Doug can be very frustrating to me.
Also, I am (mostly) pretending to have my ego hurt by Doug teaching me something.
Do you ever acknowledge when someone has taught you something?

The extra 30 days past Jesus Return is for Atonement and the 75 days is to the celebration of Hanukkah, the rededication of the Temple.​

As to 30 days & 75 days, that is your assumption based on correlating 1260 days to 1290 & 1335 days - which I don't think is appropriate.

The king of Babylon is 'Lucifer' from Isaiah 14, the despicable 'Branch' and is the False Prophet.

'Death' is given dominion at the 4th Seal (= Daniel 9:25's 1st anointed one at the 7th week mark. Also see Judges 9 for the parable of the bramble thorn bush being made king which burns the trees.)

The 'woman' flees from Ephraim at the start of the Trumpets (at Sukkot, coming out of the great tribulation via the shelter/ tabernacle of God), a third of the trees are burned, then the 'flood' comes to Jerusalem 5 months later at the 6th Trumpet (the 'winter Sabbath great tribulation').

When the statue arrives in Jerusalem (at the 6th Trumpet), it is the 'earth' that 'swallows up the armies', the 'flood' that is attacking the woman that lasts for 150 days. (So first there is the 5 months then another 150 days great tribulation in Jerusalem) And now we are at the 62 week marker from Daniel 9:25 for the arrival of another anointed one. The 'woman' flees to Babylon.

Micah 4:10

Writhe and groan, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in labor, for now you shall go out from the city and dwell in the open country; you shall go to Babylon. There you shall be rescued; there the LORD will redeem you from the hand of your enemies.​

It is Babylon that destroys Tyre, Egypt, Assyria. This is the 'flood' being 'swallowed' by the 'earth' in Revelation 12:16. Just like the sons of Korah being swallowed in an earthquake in Numbers 16; Assyria, Egypt, Tyre, and Babylon (Lucifer) are put into the 'pit' via an earthquake. Isaiah 14:9-20 corresponds to Ezekiel 31:16-17 in the manner of Numbers 16:28-34.

Babylon is the 'earth' that 'helps' the woman for the first 1260 days, then he breaks the covenant and makes people in Jerusalem worship the living version of the abomination. The 'false prophet' is the beast from the 'earth' arriving at the 7th Trumpet.

During the first 1150 days of the 1260 days of the 2 witnesses, the abomination statue is in the outer court.

When the statue arrives to make the 'woman' flee into exile (Matthew 24:15-16), it is the exiles who are regarded as 'good figs' (Jeremiah 24:4-10). That's why it is important to emphasize that there is no whisked away rapture, as people have to exile themselves away from the statue.

The survivors of literal Jerusalem will be purified at the 1150 day point. These survivors are the people of Ezekiel 38 who are living in peace when Gog comes upon them one more time when Babylon breaks the covenant at the 1260 day point.

 

[keras]

As to 30 days & 75 days, that is your assumption based on correlating 1260 days to 1290 & 1335 days - which I don't think is appropriate.

But it is logical and it fits perfectly.

It is your [and Douggs] convoluted explanations, that I reject.

 

[Douggg]

see the chart in my next post below.

 

[Douggg]

with some more detail....

 

[Douggg]

But it is logical and it fits perfectly.

It is your [and Douggs] convoluted explanations, that I reject.

Keras,

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:

(How much time here between the sign of the Son of man in heaven and the people of the earth seeing Jesus coming with power and great glory?)

and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


_____________________________________________________

The answer is 45 days.

1290 days to the sign of the Son of man in heaven.
1335 days to the people of the earth seeing Jesus coming with power and great glory.

During the 45 days the kings of the earth assemble their armies at Armageddon and take half of Jerusalem as hostages, as they prepare to make war on Jesus.

On the 1335th day, Jesus descends to earth, stands on the mount of Olives, splitting it in half, making an escape path for the hostages.

On the temple mount will be the living statue image incarnated by Satan, and the beast and false prophet.

Here is my graphic of what will then take place...

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

I know you're asking for "futurists only," but I've been arguing that I'm a futurist even though I hold to the idea that the AoD in the Olivet Discourse was fulfilled in history. This is not a Preterist idea, though it's become associated with them. The general belief in the Early Church was that the Olivet Discourse spoke of the fall of the temple in 70 AD, and Preterism didn't even begin until modern history.

So it's a little disconcerting that you exclude non-futurists with the idea that you wish to exclude those who believe the AoD was the Roman Army, even though they are not Preterists. Perhaps that's not what you're doing?

Your sense that the Great Tribulation is to be associated with the Reign of Antichrist is mostly a modern idea, though I'm sure ancient views saw it this way, as well. But if you're to take Jesus literally, the Great Tribulation is equated with a "Jewish Punishment," which only began in 70 AD and continues throughout the NT age.

Most average Christian forums tend to see a kind of banding together to hold to popular modern viewpoints, though it's clear to me that many are studied, knowledgeable, and capable. So this inflexibility I see on the forums appears to be a matter of pride. I certainly hope you're more congenial than some I've seen lately?

You don't have to agree with me. But it's a forum, right? A good place to discuss differences in a brotherly way so that we can help each other be refined.

I've been advised that I SHOULD mark such threads as Futurist only, to avoid turning a thread into a Preterist vs Futurist debate, when the intent of the OP is to discuss a prophecy Futurists believe to be in the Future, and hence the "Futurist Only" tag. It wouldn't exist if they were kidding about the rule. I'm just communicating what was conveyed to me, to help you understand the purpose of this tagging system. And its fine if you have other thoughts on the Olivet discourse and are still a Futurist. One thing I've learned after over a year of studying Revelation is that nothing is simple in Eschatology, and a lot of smart people have varying opinions, even within the Futurist only group. For example, Hal Lindsey sees a lot of Revelation as dealing with nuclear war, yet others disagree and believe all the events can be performed by the Lord without the help of nuclear weapons.

I personally do not think it is possible that all events of the Olivet discourse were fulfilled in AD70. It is possible that SOME of what the Lord said referred to AD 70, and other parts refer to his second visible coming when all the world will see the Lord return in great power and glory. And other events could have been fulfilled in AD70 in a small way and then are more completely fulfilled in the future.

Here is a good seminary paper written by a Professor of Theology and Bible scholar: https://tms.edu/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/tmsj13f.pdf

A sample from this paper:

"Fatal Flaw: Hermeneutical Compromise But once preterists have argued this point, they are in trouble because there are several events in Matthew 24 that clearly have not happened. Thus they are forced to spiritualize those events. All forms of preterism, some more than others, have to rely on figurative interpretation. John Noe, for example, defends non-literal interpretation of prophecy as follows: “The popular stream of endsayers has assumed that the Bible’s apocalyptic language must be interpreted literally and physically, and that since no one has witnessed a cataclysmic, earth-ending event of this nature, its time must lie in the future.”30 The result of the compromise of the heremeneutical integrity thus results in bizarre interpretations such as noted above of 2 Pet 3:10."

The two witnesses and the 200,000,000 person Army that John wrote that he heard (not a large number or myriads of myriads but John gave us a actual number) are examples of such spiritualization in non-Futurist views of Revelation (not the Olivet discourse).

 

[RandyPNW]

I've been advised that I SHOULD mark such threads as Futurist only, to avoid turning a thread into a Preterist vs Futurist debate, when the intent of the OP is to discuss a prophecy Futurists believe to be in the Future, and hence the "Futurist Only" tag. It wouldn't exist if they were kidding about the rule. I'm just communicating what was conveyed to me, to help you understand the purpose of this tagging system. And its fine if you have other thoughts on the Olivet discourse and are still a Futurist. One thing I've learned after over a year of studying Revelation is that nothing is simple in Eschatology, and a lot of smart people have varying opinions, even within the Futurist only group. For example, Hal Lindsey sees a lot of Revelation as dealing with nuclear war, yet others disagree and believe all the events can be performed by the Lord without the help of nuclear weapons.

I personally do not think it is possible that all events of the Olivet discourse were fulfilled in AD70. It is possible that SOME of what the Lord said referred to AD 70, and other parts refer to his second visible coming when all the world will see the Lord return in great power and glory. And other events could have been fulfilled in AD70 in a small way and then are more completely fulfilled in the future.

Here is a good seminary paper written by a Professor of Theology and Bible scholar: https://tms.edu/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/tmsj13f.pdf

A sample from this paper:

"Fatal Flaw: Hermeneutical Compromise But once preterists have argued this point, they are in trouble because there are several events in Matthew 24 that clearly have not happened. Thus they are forced to spiritualize those events. All forms of preterism, some more than others, have to rely on figurative interpretation. John Noe, for example, defends non-literal interpretation of prophecy as follows: “The popular stream of endsayers has assumed that the Bible’s apocalyptic language must be interpreted literally and physically, and that since no one has witnessed a cataclysmic, earth-ending event of this nature, its time must lie in the future.”30 The result of the compromise of the heremeneutical integrity thus results in bizarre interpretations such as noted above of 2 Pet 3:10."

The two witnesses and the 200,000,000 person Army that John wrote that he heard (not a large number or myriads of myriads but John gave us a actual number) are examples of such spiritualization in non-Futurist views of Revelation (not the Olivet discourse).

All good points. However, it should be understood that the "futurist" label itself is not being clearly defined! By some standards, the "futurist position" refers to *modern* futurist positions that exclude historical interpretations.

Like you, I hold to some preterist views and to some futurist views. So I don't like the "futurist" label to be used to exclude futurist views that include some historical interpretations.

In other words, there is a discussion here over whether the "futurist" label is being properly used. If "futurism" means *only futurist interpretations,* just like "preterism" means *only historical interpretations,* then how can we determine that a hybrid position should be excluded as "non-futurist?" And that was my whole point!