Replacing the 12th Apostle

[ContraMundum]

I guess we are all supposed to be non-questioning and as passive as the Eloi of H.G. Wells creation. I doubt that's what Elohim wants from us, he gave us brains to use.

Of course no one is saying "don't think". In fact, I'm challenging the Paul haters to think harder, and snap out of the false doctrine of the accuser who hates the word and seeks to undermine the new birth.

He also said he would test us. Now if there is a test, where most likely would it be found?

The test is in your lifestyle. Focus on that. The Gospels and the rest of the NT challenge you to live a radical lifestyle, that is far beyond debating useless questions on the internet. If the challenge of Yeshua and Shaul is too hard or doesn't meet your criteria of how you think God works, don't throw them out just yet. Try living the life, and then you will see the proof. I'm not saying you haven't tried...but this endless and time-wasting denial of the whole canon of scripture surely has some kind of impediment to your service to others in your neighborhood in G-d's name.

 

[ContraMundum]

Can't say I find Paul hard to understand. Knowing something about the society in which he lived, his background in Judaism as well as his own personal struggles, which are often related to us through his own words, and his experience in meeting the risen Yeshua helps. It shows us a very clever man dealing with all these issues and relating what he has been shown by G_d to the people.

I'd like to see anyone else attempt all that! I certainly wouldn't want to.

This is not said enough!

 

[ContraMundum]

That's what I meant in the quote you used. Paul isn't that difficult to understand when taken in full. Just pulling out a passage here and there to defend a certain agenda, it can get dicey and that's what the church has done - taken just a few passages out of context and based a lifestyle on them erroneously. (or they tweaked those passages)

So, let me get this straight....the church, which has existed for almost 2000 years, which has read Paul since probably even before three of the written Gospels, which has read Paul's letters in every lectionary at least twice a day, which has commentary upon commentary on Paul's epistles for two millenia...has only consulted a few out of context passages in Paul's writings. Is this what you are saying you believe?

 

[ananda]

...and we also have the same witness for Paul. You choose to disgard because he challenges your religious prejudices.

Please show me where we have two or more first-hand witnesses for Paul's life & unique doctrines? I must have missed them.

Your God view is very small and mechanical. God can call whomever He wants, however He wants, whenever He wants, and teach them and commission them any way He wants. He doesn't need to follow the recipe in the cookbook of men.

The recipe is His own, and that's what I'm following.

That's why some rejected Yeshua the first time and even now- He didn't meet their criteria. Now you would crucify His called Apostles because He didn't call him according to your criteria.

What criteria do you suppose I'm following that's extra-biblical?

The true believers in Messiah Yeshua have accepted Paul since the beginning, knowing his tremendous missionary fruit and His message of God's grace and his preaching of the commandment to love. I say you should allow that perhaps you may have it wrong. It is not the billions who have followed this marvelous book we call that Bible and whose lives have been changed and in turn have changed the world for the better that are wrong. God is too sovereign to have no authority over His word.

You're seemingly equating true faith & changed lives with a necessity of faith in Paul & his doctrines. Do I need Paul to be saved, and were any saved before Paul? Didn't Messiah say that few would find His Way that leads to life? Could you also allow that perhaps you may have it wrong, as well?

Many messianics here accept Paul and interpret him to support a Torah-observant lifestyle - to that I say, "great"! Some messianics, including myself, reject Paul, and interpret him to be a double-minded man who both supports and rejects Torah; we reject him in order to support a Torah-observant lifestyle. The common endpoints are the same. What's the problem here?

I don't think you should even TRY to quote Greek around me ... So, while you try to cite the Greek to me, I say give it a rest.

I quote the Greek mainly for my own benefit & practice, thanks.

 

[ananda]

... this endless and time-wasting denial of the whole canon of scripture surely has some kind of impediment to your service to others in your neighborhood in G-d's name.

In which volume can I find the "whole canon of scripture"?

In all the times I've asked that question here on CF, I have never gotten a satisfactory response.

 

[Avodat]

Please show me where we have two or more first-hand witnesses for Paul's life & unique doctrines? I must have missed them.

The recipe is His own, and that's what I'm following.

What criteria do you suppose I'm following that's extra-biblical?

You're seemingly equating true faith & changed lives with a necessity of faith in Paul & his doctrines. Do I need Paul to be saved, and were any saved before Paul? Didn't Messiah say that few would find His Way that leads to life? Could you also allow that perhaps you may have it wrong, as well?

Many messianics here accept Paul and interpret him to support a Torah-observant lifestyle - to that I say, "great"! Some messianics, including myself, reject Paul, and interpret him to be a double-minded man who both supports and rejects Torah; we reject him in order to support a Torah-observant lifestyle. The common endpoints are the same. What's the problem here?

I quote the Greek mainly for my own benefit & practice, thanks.

I suggest that is the result of exceptionally bad exegetical skills - either yours or those of someone whose material you have read, or listened to.

 

[Laureate]

Quote Easy G:
just because there's notice of the 12 being commissioned doesn't mean that there were no others the Lord didn't work with--
End Quote:

That is correct!
Yeshua's ministry is still on going the last I cheeked, and there are many legitimate Apostles.

I will try to clarify what I'm not implying in my future threads/post, but as it is, its challenging trying to put my thoughts into words and impart what I am trying to say.

In the meantime, maybe we can (briefly) ask one another for clarification, to help avoid misunderstandings, otherwise we can spend precious time responding to assumptions/things that could be construed, yet not spoken nor intended.

I've seen individuals arguing with each other, not knowing their words were in agreement, simply because they did not share the exact same vocabulary, sometimes they assume where the other person is coming from, or where their trying to go with their words, sometimes they are looking at the same subject at different angels, and both perspectives are good just not reconcilable at that moment, due to the lack of connective evidence, etc., as I said, I'll try a little harder to not be misleading.

We would all like our words to be understood as we intend them to be understood, and none of us want someone else (other than our heavenly father) putting words in our mouth, especially when they were not spoken or implied, true, there is a fine line between what can be construed and what can be implied, but for me an implication is when two or more things are suggesting or promoting a single (unspoken) thought.

I try to limit my words to respond to what is cleary put into words, or implied.

Because the Truth is connective, it is easy to speak many things that are applicable to a particular subject, these things however, often hinder one's attempt to get a particular point across, i.e., you can say the magic words to click another's understanding, yet if you hide the magic words in a collage of many words the 'would be magic' can easily be lost in the bulk of words, often a great percentage of what we speak is redundant to a persons foreknowledge, and some members of the choir are easily offended by this, instead of receiving affirmations with a thumbs up, they can't help but feel that the person addressing them, is not aware of who they are actually talking to.

One awesome thing I know about our heavenly Father is, He knows everything that we are aware of (individually speaking), and He knows everything that we are not aware of, therefore He knows exactly what we need to hear next/now to bring us into alignment with the truth, therefore (when circumstances permit) I try to take into consideration what a person may or may not be aware of, so that I can try to tailor my words for them according to their vocabulary, however we don't always have that luxury, and we have to put aside our sniper rifle and use our shot guns, because all too often we do not know everything that a person or audience is aware of, so like a wine bottles ready to burst we let it rip (with our words) to try and cover all the bases.

Oh my! Now just look at all these words, see what you made me do! :o

 

[Lulav]

Paul is just another witness, just one who had not met him during his ministry.

What was Paul witness to?

Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

Being with him from the baptism of John, until the day he arose would be a true witness of the resurrection. Not seen in a vision, but they walked and talked and ate with him while he was alive, and they did the same after he arose from the dead, for 40 days.

How can you be a witness to someone you've never met before?

 

[visionary]

Laureate ...At the bottom of the post you will see a quote button, click on it and then it will be in your post but separated from your post, so that all can see who you are responding to... saves you a lot of work.

 

[pat34lee]

Some messianics, including myself, reject Paul, and interpret him to be a double-minded man who both supports and rejects Torah; we reject him in order to support a Torah-observant lifestyle. The common endpoints are the same. What's the problem here?

The same problem as practicing Christmas or Easter. You are wrong. And, in denying Paul, you throw out around a third of your NT. Try looking up a couple of sites that show what Paul really taught, then you will have a basis to compare against your preconceptions and false teachings.

 

[ananda]

The same problem as practicing Christmas or Easter. You are wrong.

You're welcome to refute what I've written.

And, in denying Paul, you throw out around a third of your NT.

That's a loaded statement. I prefer to see it as "cautiously & thoroughly investigating Paul before possibly adding his works to my canon".

Try looking up a couple of sites that show what Paul really taught, then you will have a basis to compare against your preconceptions and false teachings.

I'd like to think that I have an inkling of knowledge as to what Paul taught. He was my favorite "apostle" to read & study, from the orthodox & mainstream perspective, for 15 years or so.

You encourage me to re-examine Paul with an open mind to orthodoxy. Have you approached the other side with an open mind as well?

 

[Lulav]

This sounds like someone wanting to be an Apostle without being a true witness.

The Evidence of the Senses More Trustworthy Than that of Supernatural Vision.

And he said: “You proposed to speak to one point, you replied to another. For your proposition was, that one is better able to know more fully, and to attain confidence, when he hears in consequence of an apparition, than when he hears with his own ears; but when you set about the matter, you were for persuading us that he who hears through an apparition is surer than he who hears with his own ears. Finally, you alleged that, on this account, you knew more satisfactorily the doctrines of Jesus than I do, because you heard His words through an apparition. But I shall reply to the proposition you made at the beginning. The prophet, because he is a prophet, having first given certain information with regard to what is objectively said by him, is believed with confidence; and being known beforehand to be a true prophet, and being examined and questioned as the disciple wishes, he replies: But he who trusts to apparition or vision and dream is insecure. For he does not know to whom he is trusting. For it is possible either that he may be an evil demon or a deceptive spirit, pretending in his speeches to be what he is not. But if any one should wish to inquire of him who he is who has appeared, he can say to himself whatever he likes. And thus, gleaming forth like a wicked one, and remaining as long as he likes, he is at length extinguished, not remaining with the questioner so long as he wished him to do for the purpose of consulting him. For any one that sees by means of dreams cannot inquire about whatever he may wish. For reflection is not in the special power of one who is asleep. Hence we, desiring to have information in regard to something in our waking hours, inquire about something else in our dreams; or without inquiring, we hear about matters that do not concern us, and awaking from sleep we are dispirited because we have neither heard nor inquired about those matters which we were eager to know.”

“If you maintain that apparitions do not always reveal the truth, yet for all that, visions and dreams, being God-sent, do not speak falsely in regard to those matters which they wish to tell.”

“You were right in saying that, being God-sent, they do not speak falsely. But it is uncertain if he who sees has seen a God-sent dream.”

“If he who has had the vision is just, he has seen a true vision.”

“You were right. But who is just, if he stands in need of a vision that he may learn what he ought to learn, and do what he ought to do?”

“Grant me this, that the just man alone can see a true vision, and I shall then reply to that other point. For I have come to the conclusion that an impious man does not see a true dream.”

“This is false; and I can prove it both apart from Scripture and by Scripture; but I do not undertake to persuade you.
Thus to me also was the Son revealed by the Father.

Wherefore I know what is the meaning of revelation, having learned it in my own case. For at the very time when the Lord said, ‘Who do they say that I am?’ and when I heard one saying one thing of Him, and another another, it came into my heart to say (and I know not, therefore, how I said it), ‘Thou art the Son of the living God.’ But He, pronouncing me blessed, pointed out to me that it was the Father who had revealed it to me; and from this time I learned that revelation is knowledge gained without instruction, and without apparition and dreams.

And this is indeed the case. For in the soul which has been placed in us by God, there is all the truth; but it is covered and revealed by the hand of God, who works so far as each one through his knowledge deserves. But the declaration of anything by means of apparitions and dreams from without is a proof, not that it comes from revelation, but from wrath.

Finally, then, it is written in the law, that God, being angry, said to Aaron and Miriam, ‘If a prophet arise from amongst you, I shall make myself known to him through visions and dreams, but not so as to my servant Moses; because I shall speak to him in an outward appearance, and not through dreams, just as one will speak to his own friend.’ You see how the statements of wrath are made through visions and dreams, but the statements to a friend are made face to face, in outward appearance, and not through riddles and visions and dreams, as to an enemy.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Quote Easy G:
just because there's notice of the 12 being commissioned doesn't mean that there were no others the Lord didn't work with--
End Quote:

That is correct!
Yeshua's ministry is still on going the last I cheeked, and there are many legitimate Apostles.

I will try to clarify what I'm not implying in my future threads/post, but as it is, its challenging trying to put my thoughts into words and impart what I am trying to say.

In the meantime, maybe we can (briefly) ask one another for clarification, to help avoid misunderstandings, otherwise we can spend precious time responding to assumptions/things that could be construed, yet not spoken nor intended.

I've seen individuals arguing with each other, not knowing their words were in agreement, simply because they did not share the exact same vocabulary, sometimes they assume where the other person is coming from, or where their trying to go with their words, sometimes they are looking at the same subject at different angels, and both perspectives are good just not reconcilable at that moment, due to the lack of connective evidence, etc., as I said, I'll try a little harder to not be misleading.

We would all like our words to be understood as we intend them to be understood, and none of us want someone else (other than our heavenly father) putting words in our mouth, especially when they were not spoken or implied, true, there is a fine line between what can be construed and what can be implied, but for me an implication is when two or more things are suggesting or promoting a single (unspoken) thought.

I try to limit my words to respond to what is cleary put into words, or implied.

Because the Truth is connective, it is easy to speak many things that are applicable to a particular subject, these things however, often hinder one's attempt to get a particular point across, i.e., you can say the magic words to click another's understanding, yet if you hide the magic words in a collage of many words the 'would be magic' can easily be lost in the bulk of words, often a great percentage of what we speak is redundant to a persons foreknowledge, and some members of the choir are easily offended by this, instead of receiving affirmations with a thumbs up, they can't help but feel that the person addressing them, is not aware of who they are actually talking to.

One awesome thing I know about our heavenly Father is, He knows everything that we are aware of (individually speaking), and He knows everything that we are not aware of, therefore He knows exactly what we need to hear next/now to bring us into alignment with the truth, therefore (when circumstances permit) I try to take into consideration what a person may or may not be aware of, so that I can try to tailor my words for them according to their vocabulary, however we don't always have that luxury, and we have to put aside our sniper rifle and use our shot guns, because all too often we do not know everything that a person or audience is aware of, so like a wine bottles ready to burst we let it rip (with our words) to try and cover all the bases.

Oh my! Now just look at all these words, see what you made me do! :o

I appreciate your response and thanks for taking the time to make it. It is more than understandable that trying to convey what one means can be difficult when it comes to communication.

There are times, however, where communication is given and disagreement doesn't equate to a matter of not understanding as much as it equates to a disagreement. With all of that aside om what you noted ( as it didn't really address the issue and seemed to be on other things seperate from the topic, IMHO), it doesn't seem to be anything really difficult in understanding where there is a fundamental disconnect when considering the ways that Christ reveals himself to others.

One side argues that Paul was chosen to be the apostle to replace Judas and the others such as Mattias were not chosen by means that the Lord designated just as he designated the others to be chosen by CHrist when he handpicked them.

The other side says that Mattias was handpicked for the role of the apostle to replace Judas just as Paul was added to the apostles when Christ came to meet him----with neither being greater than the other and Mattias not being chosen wrongly simply because the apostles did not do things the same way as Christ did as there were a myriad of ways that Christ interacted with others and a myriad of ways the Lord interacted with his people.

One side says it was wrong (or a mistake ) for the apostles to select two men from many and that they should've prayed BEFORE doing so rather than after the selection (with choosing in wisdom)....and thus, Mattias is seen as someone the Lord simply chose to work through rather than the one whom was a Divinely chosen vessel by the Lord.

The other side says that the apostles did what the Lord intended as He gave them wisdom in leading the church---and the apostles used wisdom before even choosing...alongside having an atmosphere of prayer present where they were decided to choose a replacement since they were ALWAYS being prayerful:

Acts 1:12
Then the apostles returned to Jerusalem from the hill called the Mount of Olives, a Sabbath day’s walk[c] from the city. 13 When they arrived, they went upstairs to the room where they were staying. Those present were Peter, John, James and Andrew; Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew; James son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot, and Judas son of James. 14 They all joined together constantly in prayer, along with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers.

In those days Peter stood up among the believers (a group numbering about a hundred and twenty) 16 and said, “Brothers and sisters,[d] the Scripture had to be fulfilled in which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through David concerning Judas, who served as guide for those who arrested Jesus. 17 He was one of our number and shared in our ministry.”

​

As the apostles were always in prayer, it does not seem that their decisions on selecting someone else were in error or disconnecting from seeking the heart of the Lord. There is also the issue of how the Lord gave their leadership in the church and with that comes exercising of leadership, just as parents give to their children when it comes to making choices on where they want to live...who they wish to marry...or what dinners to cook, all based on the wisdom the parents have imparted to them. To say "A mistake was made because they took initiative" would not seem accurate to the text, as they were in line with the Torah already when it comes to prayer and they were also in line with the scriptures when it came to casting the lots that the Lord had ordained for them to utilize repeatedly in scripture. The Lord in his wisdom could have spoken at any time saying it was a mistake if it was (as the choosing of an apostle is serious), but there was no need to. The Lord was with them.

As said before, there's really nothing in scripture to show that the choosing of Matthias was a matter of Christ not appointing one to become an apostle- because he did not reveal himself to them in a vision like he did Paul--just as it is not the case that others weren't disciples of Christ chosen outside of the apostles.

They really did no differently than Christ, who was already in prayer continually and had many who followed after him as His disciples---with his selection of the 12 disciples (as seen in Luke 6) coming from multiple others who followed him. There's no record of him praying on the many others who followed Him BEFORE the 12 were selected, but they were still His followers and he worked with them. Thus, to make a formula out of the style of prayer would be sticky......and the same applies to many of the miracles he did. At times he'd preach and then do miracles...whereas others he'd do miracles and then choose to pray...and other times, He'd do no miracles at all and withdrew from places.

Christ was never static in the ways he operated in His life---and we cannot make him appear to be static in his workings when it comes to Matthias and Paul. Both were appointed by Christ and done in proper manners.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

The true believers in Messiah Yeshua have accepted Paul since the beginning, knowing his tremendous missionary fruit and His message of God's grace and his preaching of the commandment to love..

Technically, the main camps that've not done so in the history of the body were those primiarily in the Ebionite Camp---and it does seem that there's a resurrection of Neo-Ebionite theology again in our days.

 

[Lulav]

You're welcome to refute what I've written.

That's a loaded statement. I prefer to see it as "cautiously & thoroughly investigating Paul before possibly adding his works to my canon".

I'd like to think that I have an inkling of knowledge as to what Paul taught. He was my favorite "apostle" to read & study, from the orthodox & mainstream perspective, for 15 years or so.

You encourage me to re-examine Paul with an open mind to orthodoxy. Have you approached the my side with an open mind as well?

His own letters show there were constant problems of contention between him and the appointed ones in Jerusalem. Those who tell you to go and find out about him by reading a website by someone who has learned in seminary what he was teaching and has not studied for themselves just doesn't understand.

It is easy to make a sermon on some of his writings, piecemeal it sounds good, can be edifying and teaching, but taken as a whole as literature should be, is another story, it becomes a divide.

There are some believers I've met, and I use that term loosely, that believe in Jesus, but not the 'god of the OT' , as Jesus was all about love and the 'god of the OT' was one of wrath and murder ,etc. This is because they have listened to teachers preach this 'loving Jesus', without including how many times he spoke of keeping Torah.

The reason they would give you, if asked, would be that he preached that way before the crucifixion, after that all was done away with.

Now of course that was not what Yeshua taught, and really if one has a brain to do their own thinking would notice that this, the son of G-d would waste his time teaching others to follow his father's commandments, only to also know he would be dying to do away with them? Does not make any logical sense, it is confusing and we know that confusion does not come from above.

If John, who basically called him the living Torah also said that we were to keep his commandments? what else but those that were given at Sinai?

 

[Lulav]

Originally Posted by ContraMundum

The true believers in Messiah Yeshua have accepted Paul since the beginning, knowing his tremendous missionary fruit and His message of God's grace and his preaching of the commandment to love..
​

Technically, the main camps that've not done so in the history of the body were those primiarily in the Ebionite Camp---and it does seem that there's a resurrection of Neo-Ebionite theology again in our days.

And why is that? Perhaps because the ruling group who became the RCC
killed off all that didn't believe as they did? Today the church doesn't have the same power it once did.

And to say that the true believers believe Paul is slanderous to them who Love HaShem and his son. There is no where in all 66 books that says to be a true believer one must believe what Paul taught.

And numbers are not a true example of anyone's credentials as to be from G-d.

• How many people attend Benny Hinn's revivals?
• How many people attend those big, 'feel good' Mega-churches. like the one in Lakewood,Texas? they preach a lot of love too.
• How about Todd Bentley? How many 'true believers' flocked to his revival meeting to 'experience and receive the Holy Spirit', mainly by kicking them in the face, or stomach, knocking them on the ground to roll around, laughing hysterically, and modestly, like animals? They lined up from around the world to do so.

Great numbers, but true believers? not what G-d says, he speaks of a remnant and a remnant is not the majority. He spoke of it to Elijah, when he was disheartened, he told of the 700 of all Israel who had not bent the knee to Ba'al. That is what all those 'true believers' were doing when going to these 'feel good' services with signs and wonders.


A story about the Lakewood church, that pulls in millions per month, a girl I knew online, made it her life's calling to move from Arizona where she had a wonderful job, to Texas, just so she could attend this Lakewood church. She ended up losing her job there, and apartment and asked for help from the church, and they would give her none, not a penny.



Benny Hinn? I haven't ever seen him in person but I have seen his brother who does the same kinds of campaigns as big brother, only on a smaller scale. I went to see him as I knew that my undiscerning Rabbi had encouraged members of the congregation, along with some Gentile 'elders' to go there and see him as he was doing 'marvelous works of the Spirit'. A woman who attended a church and our congregation, who had CP eagerly went. I knew she wanted a 'healing' but as I sat there, the spirit within me cryed out clearly there was nothing about this 'show' to do with the real one True G-d of Israel. I was urged to pray against the power that sought to take over that place and the people there.



You see he had a 'warm up' band, that played 'Christian songs' but the music was horrific, changed your brain waves, and got the people 'ready to receive'. Reminded me of Nebuchadnezzar and the Golden idol where all were to bow down when they heard certain music from the musicians.



I got me a pair of earplugs and endured all I could while watching those around me, in ecstatic song, but I also watched the group. They played way too long, seemed to be confused, since they still had to keep playing till things were just right. Henry (Benny's brother) finally came out. Promised that the 'spirit' would be there, and tried, with the band to bring it on, but nothing happened, so he ended up telling stories about big Brother Benny's miracles, and some he had performed as well. But people didn't come to sing songs and hear stories, they were getting restless. They had a 'break' where after we were already there for over an hour, he told everyone to shake hands or hug, something that involved touching. Knowing this was part of the process, I avoided it as much as possible, covering myself and hubby in prayer. It's funny, many of them ran to each other, not knowing the person, and started hugging, etc, but when they turned towards us, they hesitated, some just said 'hello' some hesitantly reached out a hand to shake, but most turned around looking for someone else. We just smiled.



He then went back to the music, and it got louder, and I wondered how these other people were tolerating it, it hurt our ears and we had earplugs in! The beat was driving, pulsing. Yet I could see he was struggling and confused as to why he was having trouble doing his signs and wonders. We were sitting in the back and right behind us were his 'sound crew'. I caught some of the things they were saying to each other, and they knew it wasn't going as planned. I was praying constantly against the power he was trying to evoke the whole time.



After another hour of this and nothing happening, we decided to leave. I found out later that no 'signs and wonders, healing or miracles' occurred that night, yet all seemed glad they were there. I have never felt like that before, I could actually feel some animosity towards myself and husband while we were there, as if some of them knew I was the source of this hindrance. I know it sounds hokey, but it happened.



We are to question, it doesn't matter who it is, we are responsible for using the gifts he gave us, not to our betterment, but for our protection.


And there are believers, and followers. There is a difference, even Yeshua said so.

 

[yedida]

His own letters show there were constant problems of contention between him and the appointed ones in Jerusalem. Those who tell you to go and find out about him by reading a website by someone who has learned in seminary what he was teaching and has not studied for themselves just doesn't understand.

It is easy to make a sermon on some of his writings, piecemeal it sounds good, can be edifying and teaching, but taken as a whole as literature should be, is another story, it becomes a divide.

There are some believers I've met, and I use that term loosely, that believe in Jesus, but not the 'god of the OT' , as Jesus was all about love and the 'god of the OT' was one of wrath and murder ,etc. This is because they have listened to teachers preach this 'loving Jesus', without including how many times he spoke of keeping Torah.

The reason they would give you, if asked, would be that he preached that way before the crucifixion, after that all was done away with.

Now of course that was not what Yeshua taught, and really if one has a brain to do their own thinking would notice that this, the son of G-d would waste his time teaching others to follow his father's commandments, only to also know he would be dying to do away with them? Does not make any logical sense, it is confusing and we know that confusion does not come from above.

If John, who basically called him the living Torah also said that we were to keep his commandments? what else but those that were given at Sinai?

These people also easily forget that the 2 Ti quote they love to banter around did NOT include the NT, not even the words in red, but only the Tanakh!

 

[visionary]

You never know how many were saved from this deception because of your presence and prayer on the congregation.

 

[pat34lee]

I'd like to think that I have an inkling of knowledge as to what Paul taught. He was my favorite "apostle" to read & study, from the orthodox & mainstream perspective, for 15 years or so.

You encourage me to re-examine Paul with an open mind to orthodoxy. Have you approached the other side with an open mind as well?

Length of time studying something is not always a valid indicator of understanding when you see things through a veil of doctrine. If you have been taught that the law was done away with, and that the Torah, while good, is not for us, you find scripture that supports that doctrine.

One problem with Paul's books is that they are letters, not books. They were written to specific churches due to problems or questions that the church had. We do not have any letters to Paul explaining what the problems were, or why he would write them on certain subjects. There is only what he explains, which he does not always do in detail.

I have looked up some of the problems that people have with Paul's writings, and most seem to be either bad translations (NIV and NASB in particular), or misunderstanding what he is saying. Another problem is that when he says law, he could mean Torah, ceremonial law, civil law or tradition.

 

[Lulav]

You never know how many were saved from this deception because of your presence and prayer on the congregation.

Quite, but I did feel bad for the woman with CP, I know her hopes were up, so I did pray that if healing were to be for her, it wouldn't be there at that 'healing meeting', but that HaShem would bring it in his time.