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Replacing the 12th Apostle

Avodat

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Fascinating synchronicity :) I was just reading about H.G. Wells & his opinion of Paul earlier today:
It is a fact in history that the teaching of Jesus of Nazareth had in it something profoundly new and creative; he preached a new Kingdom of Heaven in the hearts and in the world of men. There was nothing in his teaching, so far as we can judge it at this distance of time, to clash or interfere with any discovery or expansion of the history of the world and mankind. But it is equally a fact in history that St. Paul and his successors added to or completed or imposed upon or substituted another doctrine for—as you may prefer to think— the plain and profoundly revolutionary teachings of Jesus by expounding a subtle and complex theory of salvation, a salvation which could be attained very largely by belief and formalities, without any serious disturbance of the believer's ordinary habits and occupations, and that this Pauline teaching did involve very definite beliefs about the history of the world and man. It is not the business of the historian to controvert or explain these matters; the question of their ultimate significance depends upon the theologian; the historian's concern is merely with the fact that official Christianity throughout the world adopted St. Paul's view so plainly expressed in his epistiles and so untraceable in the gospels, that the meaning of religion lay not in the future, but in the past, and that Jesus was not so much a teacher of wonderful new things, as a predestinate divine blood sacrifice of deep mystery and sacredness made in atonement of a particular historical act of disobedience to the Creator committed by our first parents, Adam and Eve, in response to the temptation of a serpent in the Garden of Eden. Upon the belief in that Fall as a fact, and not upon the personality of Jesus of Nazareth, upon the theories of Paul, and not upon the injunctions of Jesus, doctrinal Christianity built itself.

Why would you take the word of an heretic? He was well known for his way out attacks on just about everything from politics to religion: "After being exposed to Darwinism in school, H.G. Wells converted from devout Christian to devout Darwinist and spent the rest of his life proselytizing for Darwin and eugenics. Wells advocated a level of eugenics that was even more extreme than Hitler’s. The weak should be killed by the strong, having ‘no pity and less benevolence’. The diseased, deformed and insane, together with ‘those swarms of blacks, and brown, and dirty-white, and yellow people . . . will have to go’ in order to create a scientific utopia. He envisioned a time when all crime would be punished by death because ‘People who cannot live happily and freely in the world without spoiling the lives of others are better out of it.’ He was hailed as an ‘apostle of optimism’ but died an ‘infinitely frustrated’ and broken man, concluding that ‘mankind was ultimately doomed and that its prospect is not salvation, but extinction. Despite all the hopes in science, the end must be “darkness still”.’ Wells’ life abundantly illustrates the bankruptcy of consistently applied Darwinism."

If he is the sum of your argument, the foundations are very shaky, I would suggest.
 
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ananda

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Why would you take the word of an heretic? ... Wells’ life abundantly illustrates the bankruptcy of consistently applied Darwinism ... If he is the sum of your argument, the foundations are very shaky, I would suggest.
He's certainly not the sum of my argument ... his belief in Darwinism doesn't take away from his valid observations about Paulinism. I specifically quoted him because Lulav and I both thought about him today.
 
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Avodat

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He's certainly not the sum of my argument ... his belief in Darwinism doesn't take away from his valid observations about Paulinism. I specifically quoted him because Lulav and I both thought about him today.

How can he have 'valid observations about Paulinism" or anything else we believers might be interested in, when he debunked just about every doctrine and creed ever thought up, including questioning the validity of the Son of G_d? You would trust a man who is not just a non-believer but is an anti-Christian and who was more murderous in his views concerning eugenics than was Hitler? Or does that reflect your views, perhaps?

I don't know about Lulav, I choose not to see anything she posts so her agreement is neither here nor there as far as I am concerned.
 
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ananda

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How can he have 'valid observations about Paulinism" or anything else we believers might be interested in, when he debunked just about every doctrine and creed ever thought up, including questioning the validity of the Son of G_d?
Do you read commentary or books by any mainstream Christian authors, even though they might deny Torah?

You would trust a man who is not just a non-believer but is an anti-Christian and who was more murderous in his views concerning eugenics than was Hitler? Or does that reflect your views, perhaps?
The purpose of my quotation was to demonstrate my support for that particular non-Pauline view he espoused in that specific quote; it was not a commentary on, or a demonstration of support for his beliefs on any other issue.
 
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Avodat

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Do you read commentary or books by any mainstream Christian authors, even though they might deny Torah?

The purpose of my quotation was to demonstrate my support for that particular non-Pauline view he espoused in that specific quote; it was not a commentary on, or a demonstration of support for his beliefs on any other issue.
.

If he is the only view that you can find to support something in relation to a non-Pauline view you hold, your argument is on very shaky ground, particularly given Wells' anti-Jewish statements and a Hitler style view on life and death in relation to the sick, the deformed, the old, those of races or creeds other than his own etc etc. Not to mention his anti-G_d and anti-Yeshua views. I would be very worried if he was my only support for an argument!

Yes, I do read opposing views. If I had not read them (and I have a good number on my book shelves), I would not know how to spot these falsehoods.
 
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ananda

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If he is the only view that you can find to support something in relation to a non-Pauline view you hold, your argument is on very shaky ground
I don't think I wrote that his was the only quote I could find to support my non-Pauline view. I quoted him simply in light of what I perceived was synchronicity! :doh:
 
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mercy1061

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Jacob had 12 sons.....

Joseph had two sons.....

Jacob did not choose his 12 sons.....

Jacob did choose the two sons of Joseph....

Manasseh son of Joseph did replace one of the original 12 sons of Jacob when the census was taken during various times of scriptures for different reasons. Joseph as we all know is a son of Jacob; his sons Jacob's grandsons. Abraham had a nephew named Lot and a niece named Sarah.

Yeshua chose 12 apostles, then two more that the Yeshua did not choose; but were chosen by the apostles. Jacob was allowed to chose one of Joseph's son to replace one of the tribes of Israel.
 
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Avodat

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I don't think I wrote that his was the only quote I could find to support my non-Pauline view. I quoted him simply in light of what I perceived was synchronicity! :doh:

It was the only one offered - I'd be more convinced by one that was from a believer and without all Wells' terrible baggage.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Jacob had 12 sons.....

Joseph had two sons.....

Jacob did not choose his 12 sons.....

Jacob did choose the two sons of Jacob..
..
Manasseh son of Joseph did replace one of the original 12 sons of Jacob when the census was taken during various times of scriptures for different reasons. Joseph as we all know is a son of Jacob; his sons Jacob's grandsons. Abraham had a nephew named Lot and a niece named Sarah.

Yeshua chose 12 apostles, then two more that the Yeshua did not choose; but were chosen by the apostles. Jacob was allowed to chose one of Joseph's son to replace one of the tribes of Israel. .
Jacob chose Joseph's sons as a direct inheritance/counting both of them as a collective tribe, blessing them with the best spiritual blessing while the others were also blessed. According to the latter part of Genesis, Jacob sought to curse Simeon and Levi due to their vengence on Dinah's rapist....while Reuben was stripped of his first-born blessing and that was given to Judah. Reuben was more righteous than Judah on multiple points/the First Born and Levi/Simeon did what their father should have done...with the Lord blessing them both later on ( as seen here, #8 and #6)...

The Lord worked out BOTH situations with Levi becoming the nation of priests/Levites taken care of by the people (even though Jacob's curse was still technically in effect/they never had a place of their own in regards to tribal land)--and Simeon was absored into the Kingly line of Judah, while Reuben was also protected/never died off.

The 2 sons of Jospeh never replaced the rest of the 12..even though they were dominant in the land (Manasseah being lesser than his younger brother Ephraim in scope, even though both were present)....and Judah ended up taking up only 2 tribes (Judah and Benjamin) while Israel included Joseph's tribe/the rest of the 10 tribes left....but many from those tribes came back over to Judah's side ..alongside others from Joseph's side...and once the exile began in II Kings 17, the others in Israel were sent off while Judah/those who sided with her survived longer.

In regards to the 12 tribes of Israel being represented, something that's interesting is to consider how not all of the tribes were ever listed...specifically, the tribe of Dan:
Revelation 7

144,000 Sealed

1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3 “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” 4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.


5 From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
6 from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
7 from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
8 from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000, from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.



Its interesting to consider how the Tribes of Dan and Ephraim are missing from the list. Though there are some who feel it is a translation error and more is there when studying the text. One Messianic, know as Steve Collins, actually spoke more in-depth on the matter---as seen here.

Of course, others are of the mindset that the tribe of Dan was not included because of how they may've fallen into extreme idolatry/immorality....and thus, the Lord wiped them out. The tribe of Dan as a whole was guilty of gross idolatry—even to the point of stealing the idols they used to practice their religion (Judges 18:14-31).

Theirs was the first organized idolatry in ancient Israel, and the longest in duration..and it continued "until the day of the captivity of the land," nearly 500 years later (Judges 18:30). Some say that Ephraim and Dan are connected in their being not listed, as idolatry is the same thing that Ephraim fell into like Dan (compare Judges 17:1-3 and Hosea 4:17). However, that may not be a valid argument since both the tribe of Manasseh and the tribe of Joseph are listed. Ephraim and Manasseh were the two sons of Joseph (Genesis 48:1). Since Manasseh is one of the two tribes descended from Joseph, "the tribe of Joseph" mentioned in Revelation 7:8 must refer to Ephraim. From this, we can learn that Ephraim, being the leading tribe of the house of Joseph, sometimes bore the name "Joseph"--and thus, it may not be the case that Ephraim was wiped out.

But with Dan, I'm still processing what to make of it.

As another said best when it came to their giving conjecture:

Maybe the tribe of Dan is not mentioned because they became so involved in idolatry (Judges 18:30-31). The Lord hates idolatry, and this was the very thing that led God to give up on the early inhabitants of the “promised land” given to Israel. The Lord warned Israel that they were not to study or practice any of the pagan rites of the heathen nations that were overthrown by God to make way for the Children of Israel to become a nation (Exodus 23:31-33, Leviticus 18:1-5 & verses 24-30). Every thing connected with idolatry was to be burned or put to death as they entered the land to possess it (Deuteronomy 7:1-6 & Joshua 6:15-21).
Others are of the mindset that Israel, at the eve of the Lord's coming, shall be found re-embodied as a nation...with its tribes distinctly specified and Joseph being substituted for Dan---and possible reasons others feel are that either Dan is replaced because the Antichrist is to come from Dan....or Dan is to be Antichrist's especial tool. One can compare Genesis 49:17, Jeremiah 8:16 and Amos 8:14 when it comes to the possibility of Dan being one who won't be used except for wrong.. just as there was a Judas among the Twelve.

For myself, I don't think its necessarily the case that Dan has no place in the future. For Ezekiel 48:31-34 also specifies a gate to the city of Jerusalem for each tribe. "And the gates of the city shall be after the names of the tribes of Israel: three gates northward; one gate of Reuben, one gate of Judah, one gate of Levi. And at the east side four thousand and five hundred: and three gates; and one gate of Joseph, one gate of Benjamin, one gate of Dan. And at the south side four thousand and five hundred measures: and three gates; one gate of Simeon, one gate of Issachar, one gate of Zebulun. At the west side four thousand and five hundred, with their three gates; one gate of Gad, one gate of Asher, one gate of Naphtali."

These same gates are also mentioned in Revelation 21:12-13, in the middle of the description of the new Jerusalem after the future 1000 year kingdom. "... had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates."

As Dan is mentioned first in the apportioning of land in the soon-coming Millennium (Ezekiel 48:1) and the apostle Paul assures us, "All Israel will be saved" (Romans 11:26), I don't know I could say that Dan's fate is lost.
 
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Lulav

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Why would you take the word of an heretic? He was well known for his way out attacks on just about everything from politics to religion: "After being exposed to Darwinism in school, H.G. Wells converted from devout Christian to devout Darwinist and spent the rest of his life proselytizing for Darwin and eugenics. Wells advocated a level of eugenics that was even more extreme than Hitler’s. The weak should be killed by the strong, having ‘no pity and less benevolence’. The diseased, deformed and insane, together with ‘those swarms of blacks, and brown, and dirty-white, and yellow people . . . will have to go’ in order to create a scientific utopia. He envisioned a time when all crime would be punished by death because ‘People who cannot live happily and freely in the world without spoiling the lives of others are better out of it.’ He was hailed as an ‘apostle of optimism’ but died an ‘infinitely frustrated’ and broken man, concluding that ‘mankind was ultimately doomed and that its prospect is not salvation, but extinction. Despite all the hopes in science, the end must be “darkness still”.’ Wells’ life abundantly illustrates the bankruptcy of consistently applied Darwinism."

If he is the sum of your argument, the foundations are very shaky, I would suggest.


Everyone in all stages of history has tried to come to an understanding of who we are, where we live and where we come from. We need to balance that with what we are given as a written record with the record recorded in the earth itself. We cannot judge another on what they wrote to determine where they ended up, that is very closed-minded. We need instead to try and see where they were going.

I don't find this in the least bit 'anti' anything

Galileo was declared a heretic by the Church for believing that the earth revolved around the sun.

Do you believe as the Church did? Do you believe that our planet is the center of the universe?

If not, why? If Galileo hadn't recanted this theory of his, he would have been killed, was that justifiable?

The quote that Netzarim posted was prefaced by this.

Now, upon that matter (the authority of Christianity) the teller of modern history is obliged to be at once cautious and bold. He has to pick his way between cowardly evasion on the one hand, and partisanship on the other. As far as possible he must confine himself to facts and restrain his opinions. Yet it is well to remember that no opinions can be altogether restrained. ...............

From there he goes on to say that
it is a fact in history that the teaching of Jesus of Nazareth had in it something profoundly new and creative; he preached a new Kingdom of Heaven in the hearts and in the world of men. There was nothing in his teaching, so far as we can judge it at this distance of time, to clash or interfere with any discovery or expansion of the history of the world and mankind.

Do those words sound heretical? Was he wrong to distinguish the difference between what Yeshua taught and what Paul taught, as have many other scholars? We cannot say anything is for sure without having all the evidence on the matter. And I say we do not, but only bits and pieces we have been allowed to have. History is written by those it benefits, even Josephus wrote in deference to his Roman audience.

I know you have me on ignore Avodat and won't see this unless someone else quote's me, but don't you think it's a bit ridicules to continue to do so? Do you not feel competent to have an intelligent discussion with me? If I challenge you, does that mean we can't talk? Remember iron sharpens Iron, we don't have to disagree, but it is childish not to mention against the teachings of Yeshua to continue to ignore me and to post repeatedly to others that you are doing so. ~ Matthew 5:23-24 and Matt 6:14-15 and Matt 18:21-
 
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yedida

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As you rightly pointed out, we have the corroborating testimony of multiple guys regarding Messiah's life ;)

No, I discard paul, not only because he doesn't "fit" with the idea that he wasn't an eyewitness, but mainly because I believe that much of what he says disagrees with the Law and the Prophets (Isa 8:20). The author of 2Pet would have no reason to write his warning if he believed that Paul couldn't be interpreted to support lawlessness:

Ὑμεῖς οὖν ἀγαπητοί προγινώσκοντες φυλάσσεσθε ἵνα μὴ τῇ τῶν ἀθέσμων πλάνῃ συναπαχθέντες ἐκπέσητε τοῦ ἰδίου στηριγμοῦ - 2Pet 3:17 - You therefore, beloved, knowing beforehand, continually-beware, that being led away with the error of the lawless, you should possibly-fall from your own stedfastness.

There would be no good reason for Messiah to spend 3+ years on earth, teaching His apostles and commissioning them to preach what they witnessed to all nations, if He would just turn around moments later to secretly commission Paul with secret knowledge, giving the latter instructions which contradicted his earlier ones. It just doesn't fit.

Gotta agree
 
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yedida

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Great minds. :)

Wow, that is profound. I hadn't read that before, although I have read of a great number of acclaimed scholars and well studied men putting forth similar sentiments. It seems that the 'unschooled' or the 'Unlearned' are far from the ones who struggle with what he had to say, specifically in light of the gospels and taking it all as a whole, not in just a verse here or there preached in some sermon.

I am especially struck by these line:



and



How succinctly put!

I find it strange that one so hard to understand is the one the church has based ALL of its theologies on....strange.
 
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yedida

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Everyone in all stages of history has tried to come to an understanding of who we are, where we live and where we come from. We need to balance that with what we are given as a written record with the record recorded in the earth itself. We cannot judge another on what they wrote to determine where they ended up, that is very closed-minded. We need instead to try and see where they were going.

I don't find this in the least bit 'anti' anything

Galileo was declared a heretic by the Church for believing that the earth revolved around the sun.

Do you believe as the Church did? Do you believe that our planet is the center of the universe?

If not, why? If Galileo hadn't recanted this theory of his, he would have been killed, was that justifiable?

The quote that Netzarim posted was prefaced by this.



From there he goes on to say that

Do those words sound heretical? Was he wrong to distinguish the difference between what Yeshua taught and what Paul taught, as have many other scholars? We cannot say anything is for sure without having all the evidence on the matter. And I say we do not, but only bits and pieces we have been allowed to have. History is written by those it benefits, even Josephus wrote in deference to his Roman audience.

I know you have me on ignore Avodat and won't see this unless someone else quote's me, but don't you think it's a bit ridicules to continue to do so? Do you not feel competent to have an intelligent discussion with me? If I challenge you, does that mean we can't talk? Remember iron sharpens Iron, we don't have to disagree, but it is childish not to mention against the teachings of Yeshua to continue to ignore me and to post repeatedly to others that you are doing so. ~ Matthew 5:23-24 and Matt 6:14-15 and Matt 18:21-

I hate confrontation, and I hate it even worse when it's with someone I care about but how else are we to grow and learn?
I think putting someone on ignore is not a good thing. I have only one person on ignore and it has nothing to do with how I "feel" about the person - I actually do read the posts after I've finished reading all the other postings (simply because this poster often changes the formatting of all the rest of the posts - so leaving this one poster til last doesn't mess up any of the other posts before they're read).
Each and every one of us has a story to tell. And if God didn't think each of us was important to the others, He wouldn't have brought us together here. At least that's my opinion.
 
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Avodat

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I hate confrontation, and I hate it even worse when it's with someone I care about but how else are we to grow and learn?
I think putting someone on ignore is not a good thing. I have only one person on ignore and it has nothing to do with how I "feel" about the person - I actually do read the posts after I've finished reading all the other postings (simply because this poster often changes the formatting of all the rest of the posts - so leaving this one poster til last doesn't mess up any of the other posts before they're read).
Each and every one of us has a story to tell. And if God didn't think each of us was important to the others, He wouldn't have brought us together here. At least that's my opinion.

I agree. I have just one person on ignore - the one who is now publicly asking why. In the months I've been here I have seen my words twisted out of shape by this one poster to suit their need to constantly attack, be argumentative and downright rude. That is not the way I choose to relate to others on these fora. The attacks are often above and beyond the way we all debate and argue points - it is a personal vendetta. Therefore the ignore stays, and neither of us will get reported.

But don't let this de-rail this thread any further - it's really not worth it!
 
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Avodat

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I find it strange that one so hard to understand is the one the church has based ALL of its theologies on....strange.

Can't say I find Paul hard to understand. Knowing something about the society in which he lived, his background in Judaism as well as his own personal struggles, which are often related to us through his own words, and his experience in meeting the risen Yeshua helps. It shows us a very clever man dealing with all these issues and relating what he has been shown by G_d to the people.

I'd like to see anyone else attempt all that! I certainly wouldn't want to. :)
 
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yedida

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Well, okey dokey then. But I'll bet if some stranger came in here really giving Lulav "what-for" you'd jump in and defend her; and I know she'd have your back! Cos that's what families do: catch each other's back, even if they don't get along so well inside the house - you just don't mess with someone's brother or sister. And that's a fact!

Back to the OP.
 
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yedida

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Can't say I find Paul hard to understand. Knowing something about the society in which he lived, his background in Judaism as well as his own personal struggles, which are often related to us through his own words, and his experience in meeting the risen Yeshua helps. It shows us a very clever man dealing with all these issues and relating what he has been shown by G_d to the people.

I'd like to see anyone else attempt all that! I certainly wouldn't want to. :)

That's what I meant in the quote you used. Paul isn't that difficult to understand when taken in full. Just pulling out a passage here and there to defend a certain agenda, it can get dicey and that's what the church has done - taken just a few passages out of context and based a lifestyle on them erroneously. (or they tweaked those passages)
 
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Avodat

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That's what I meant in the quote you used. Paul isn't that difficult to understand when taken in full. Just pulling out a passage here and there to defend a certain agenda, it can get dicey and that's what the church has done - taken just a few passages out of context and based a lifestyle on them erroneously. (or they tweaked those passages)

I think the real problem is where people put Paul (or any other character in The Book) on a par with G_d when, in fact, he and they are humans and they have human baggage just as we all have. Paul is one who admits to this more than most others in The Book. Most, like Paul, who minister, tend to wear their heart on their arms, as Paul did, and are too willing, at times, to admit their failings in an open way (I know there are great exceptions, but I'm talking about the average guy who ministers in the congregations in our local streets). Most, like Paul, struggle constantly, with the call placed upon them. But...the glory of G_d is seen through his ability to shine through such people and to bring his message to us as he wants us to know it. I think Paul did an amazing job in difficult times but should we kick him in the teeth because of what others have done with his letters - written as personal teaching letters to other congregations and individuals?
 
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yedida

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I think the real problem is where people put Paul (or any other character in The Book) on a par with G_d when, in fact, he and they are humans and they have human baggage just as we all have. Paul is one who admits to this more than most others in The Book. Most, like Paul, who minister, tend to wear their heart on their arms, as Paul did, and are too willing, at times, to admit their failings in an open way (I know there are great exceptions, but I'm talking about the average guy who ministers in the congregations in our local streets). Most, like Paul, struggle constantly, with the call placed upon them. But...the glory of G_d is seen through his ability to shine through such people and to bring his message to us as he wants us to know it. I think Paul did an amazing job in difficult times but should we kick him in the teeth because of what others have done with his letters - written as personal teaching letters to other congregations and individuals?

That's the conclusion I've come to - it ain't Paul at all - it was a scribe, or a copyist who made the errors (and I don't think innocently) that caused the "church" to go off track. Rome wanted to do away with all Jewishness and what better way than to convince everyone (who back then did not own personal bibles after it had come to print) that the Torah was for Jews not for Christians. Paul just kind of got stuck in the middle because he was who they "used" and abused.
 
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ContraMundum

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As you rightly pointed out, we have the corroborating testimony of multiple guys regarding Messiah's life ;)

...and we also have the same witness for Paul. You choose to disgard because he challenges your religious prejudices.

No, I discard paul, not only because he doesn't "fit" with the idea that he wasn't an eyewitness, but mainly because I believe that much of what he says disagrees with the Law and the Prophets (Isa 8:20). The author of 2Pet would have no reason to write his warning if he believed that Paul couldn't be interpreted to support lawlessness:

Ὑμεῖς οὖν ἀγαπητοί προγινώσκοντες φυλάσσεσθε ἵνα μὴ τῇ τῶν ἀθέσμων πλάνῃ συναπαχθέντες ἐκπέσητε τοῦ ἰδίου στηριγμοῦ - 2Pet 3:17 - You therefore, beloved, knowing beforehand, continually-beware, that being led away with the error of the lawless, you should possibly-fall from your own stedfastness.

I don't think you should even TRY to quote Greek around me. I don't think Paul is going against anything the Law and Prophets teach- but then again I understand how all this works just fine. The same thing you accuse Paul of is what the RJs accuse Jesus of- going against the grain. I think it's easy to drag in one's prejudice and read the Bible any way you like...so I leave my prejudices and culture at the door and just accept that God has had mercy on me, not for my theology, nor my works, nor by my keeping of the Law, but by His grace. If that's too tough a message for those desperately trying to add their righteousness to His mercy, then all I can say is that they just don't get that big 'ol Bible.


So, while you try to cite the Greek to me, I say give it a rest. Your religious ideas are challenged by the NT, and that's the end of it.

There would be no good reason for Messiah to spend 3+ years on earth, teaching His apostles and commissioning them to preach what they witnessed to all nations, if He would just turn around moments later to secretly commission Paul with secret knowledge, giving the latter instructions which contradicted his earlier ones. It just doesn't fit.

Your God view is very small and mechanical. God can call whomever He wants, however He wants, whenever He wants, and teach them and commission them any way He wants. He doesn't need to follow the recipe in the cookbook of men. That's why some rejected Yeshua the first time and even now- He didn't meet their criteria. Now you would crucify His called Apostles because He didn't call him according to your criteria.

The true believers in Messiah Yeshua have accepted Paul since the beginning, knowing his tremendous missionary fruit and His message of God's grace and his preaching of the commandment to love. I say you should allow that perhaps you may have it wrong. It is not the billions who have followed this marvelous book we call that Bible and whose lives have been changed and in turn have changed the world for the better that are wrong. God is too sovereign to have no authority over His word.
 
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