klutedavid

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Why you could even say the "Testator" of the OC passed away, thus bringing forth something New. :D
Precisely, there is so much that could be said on this point.

Ultimately, Jesus established a spiritual covenant with a spiritual people, not a reconditioned covenant with a worldly nation.
 
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Grip Docility

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Basically nobody actually teaches "Replacement Theology", what the historic and orthodox teaching of Christianity is, as what Scripture itself very explicitly teaches, is that Israel and the Church are the same People, the same body. Israel is the Church, the Church is Israel. God has always had a People who belong to Him through faith. That is why St. Paul is clear that Abraham is our father in the faith, not the father of the Jews only, but father of all the Faithful, Jew and Gentiles; as the promise given to Abraham is Jesus Christ who is the Seed of Abraham. And in Christ both Jew and Gentile are united as one body.

Those before Christ looked forward in faith to Christ. And we today have the fullness of Christ. The Word became flesh, being conceived in the womb of the Virgin Mary by the power of the Holy Spirit, He is Jesus the Christ, the One about whom all who came before longed for and hoped for: Emmanuel, the Son of David, the Root of Jesse, the Seed of Abraham, the Son of Man.

We can't go so far as to say that unbelieving Israel isn't Israel at all, they are still Israel in that, as Jews, they are heirs of the promises made to them through Moses on Mt. Horeb; just as during the time of Elijah many in Israel had become faithless, there remained a faithful remnant. Paul uses this imagery of the time of Elijah to speak of the present faithlessness of much of Israel, while also speaking of the faithful remnant who have believed in God's Messiah. St. Paul, recognizing this current situation looks forward, with hope, to a time when all of Israel, not just the faithful remnant, will be saved. How or what that looks like is not told to us, but it does mean that Christians do err if we consider the Jews somehow completely outside of God's designs and grace.

So there is an important and fine point that must be made: The Dispensationalist rejection of the Gospel by insisting that Christ's precious Gospel is only a temporary thing given, and that God's "real" plan is simply to carry on an earthly territory in the Levant which is entirely apart from Christ, His work, and the fullness of God in Him and all the holy promises given fulfilled in Him; this schema must be denied for what it is: a dangerous rejection of Christ and His Everlasting Gospel of salvation for all sinners for all times, the Gospel of the kingdom of God, inaugurated and manifest through Christ and His Church until all things are consummated in the end and Jesus hands the kingdom over to His Father and God is all in all. Likewise, we must not think that unbelieving Israel is completely and utterly cut off from God, as the Apostle himself says that though the unbelieving have been pruned away, he nevertheless (as mentioned already) looks forward in hope to the salvation of all Israel. As such, the Church must never be the antagonist against any people, but in a special way the historic antagonism, and indeed antisemitism, of the Christian Church is particularly heinous--both for its severity, and for its betrayal of hope.

-CryptoLutheran

The thing about Dispensationalist's, which I am and am not, one... don't ask, it's "Complicated"... anyhoo..... saying the Gospel is Temporary is False.

All is established by the Gospel to the Dispensationalist.

Infact, the Dispensationalist actually "protects" the purity of the Gospel, by ensuring scripture is RIGHTLY DIVIDED... and the Old and New Covenant aren't deceivingly "Blended together".

Cough... Cough... (Enter Examples known here)...

Any Biblical Dispi, worth their salt will Proclaim that BROKEN OFF ISRAEL isn't saved, until it EMBRACES JESUS as THEIR KING, Through THE GOSPEL... which will be rather Literal and Fully "Embodied" at this "Unknown" time.
 
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nonaeroterraqueous

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Is Galatians 3:16 to the Singular (Seed) or to Thy Seeds?

It would be grammatically incorrect in this context to refer to it as "seeds," in the same way that it would be incorrect to refer to a cup of water as "waters." The seed mentioned here is a non-quantifiable substance, as a liquid.

And...that's as far as I'm going with that one.
 
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Grip Docility

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It would be grammatically incorrect in this context to refer to it as "seeds," in the same way that it would be incorrect to refer to a cup of water as "waters." The seed mentioned here is a non-quantifiable substance, as a liquid.

And...that's as far as I'm going with that one.

Grammar Sarcasm.... :doh:

You know the verse and to what I mean....

Galatians 3:16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say "and to seeds," as though referring to many, but and to your seed, referring to one, who is Christ.
 
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ViaCrucis

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The thing about Dispensationalist's, which I am and am not, one... don't ask, it's "Complicated"... anyhoo..... saying the Gospel is Temporary is False.

All is established by the Gospel to the Dispensationalist.

Infact, the Dispensationalist actually "protects" the purity of the Gospel, by ensuring scripture is RIGHTLY DIVIDED... and the Old and New Covenant aren't deceivingly "Blended together".

Cough... Cough... (Enter Examples known here)...

Any Biblical Dispi, worth their salt will Proclaim that BROKEN OFF ISRAEL isn't saved, until it EMBRACES JESUS as THEIR KING, Through THE GOSPEL... which will be rather Literal and Fully "Embodied" at this "Unknown" time.

Classical Dispensationalist teaching--and that is where my issue lay--maintains that we are presently in a parenthetical dispensation of grace, brought about due to the failure of the Jews to embrace Jesus en masse as their King Messiah. They believe that when Jesus came He was supposed to be accepted and made to rule over earthly Israel and initiate the kingdom; but with the rejection of Jesus and His being handed over to the Romans to be executed that was delayed and God initiated Plan B: That by Jesus' death and subsequent resurrection God would temporarily work among the Gentiles for a time. The preaching of the Gospel of grace is temporary, only for this parenthetical dispensation of grace, and once the Church is removed from the earth via "the rapture" God can again go back to dealing with earthly Israel. At that point the Gospel of Grace will be over, and it will be up to the Jews to be obedient to God's Law, and embracing Jesus as the Messiah, who will face off against the Antichrist until Jesus comes to establish a literal thousand year reign on earth.

That can only be described as a rejection and denial of the Gospel. Not all Dispenastionalists necessarily believe all of this, but even softer forms of Dispensationalism ultimately argue that the Church is a mere parenthesis in God's purposes, which is why it is necessary to take the Church out of the world through a "rapture".

This is not rightly dividing the word, this is confusing, butchering, obfuscating, and perverting the word of God by denying its central Thesis and Subject: Jesus Christ.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Grip Docility

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Classical Dispensationalist teaching--and that is where my issue lay--maintains that we are presently in a parenthetical dispensation of grace, brought about due to the failure of the Jews to embrace Jesus en masse as their King Messiah. They believe that when Jesus came He was supposed to be accepted and made to rule over earthly Israel and initiate the kingdom; but with the rejection of Jesus and His being handed over to the Romans to be executed that was delayed and God initiated Plan B: That by Jesus' death and subsequent resurrection God would temporarily work among the Gentiles for a time. The preaching of the Gospel of grace is temporary, only for this parenthetical dispensation of grace, and once the Church is removed from the earth via "the rapture" God can again go back to dealing with earthly Israel. At that point the Gospel of Grace will be over, and it will be up to the Jews to be obedient to God's Law, and embracing Jesus as the Messiah, who will face off against the Antichrist until Jesus comes to establish a literal thousand year reign on earth.

That can only be described as a rejection and denial of the Gospel. Not all Dispenastionalists necessarily believe all of this, but even softer forms of Dispensationalism ultimately argue that the Church is a mere parenthesis in God's purposes, which is why it is necessary to take the Church out of the world through a "rapture".

This is not rightly dividing the word, this is confusing, butchering, obfuscating, and perverting the word of God by denying its central Thesis and Subject: Jesus Christ.

-CryptoLutheran

Taking fringe Dispi work and nailing it to all Dispis... is like taking Mormons and JW"s (Both Believe in RT) to explain what all Repi's believe. :p
 
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ViaCrucis

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Taking fringe Dispi work and nailing it to all Dispis... is like taking Mormons and JW"s (Both Believe in RT) to explain what all Repi's believe. :p

Classical Dispensationalism isn't "fringe" though.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ewq1938

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The tree that was historical Israel was cut down by God, the tree did not bear fruit.


Paul disagrees with you. The tree stands with natural branches that have faith in Christ. It wasn't cut down. It even has new branches added to it.
 
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ViaCrucis

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How classical? According to Romans 11... It goes back pretty far! :D

Classical Dispensationalism goes back to the founding of Dispensationalism, namely Darby and the Plymouth Brethren, though there were some influences from the peculiar teachings of Edward Irving as well. And was further spread through the work of Moody, Scofield, and Ryrie.

-CryptoLUtheran
 
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Grip Docility

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Paul disagrees with you. The tree stands with natural branches that have faith in Christ. It wasn't cut down. It even has new branches added to it.

Olive Tree. (BOC)

Israel is a fig Tree.

Please oh please disagree!!!
 
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Classical Dispensationalism goes back to the founding of Dispensationalism, namely Darby and the Plymouth Brethren, though there were some influences from the peculiar teachings of Edward Irving as well. And was further spread through the work of Moody, Scofield, and Ryrie.

-CryptoLUtheran

Oh, well since Paul didn’t know who Darby was, I guess you call me Old School. :D

Romans 9, Romans 10, Romans 11

Acts 1, Zechariah 14, Joel 2, Joel 3
 
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ewq1938

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Olive Tree. (BOC)

Israel is a fig Tree.

Please oh please disagree!!!

Israel is also an olive tree.

Jer 11:16 The LORD called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken.
There is a tree with natural or original branches. Those branches are the Jewish people making the tree Israel. After Christ came branches that rejected Him are removed, and gentile branches that accept Christ are added to it. The tree is still representative of Israel because it has many original branches/Jews, it just now includes gentiles as well as Jews, all who are Christians/Messianics.
Jer 11:17 For the LORD of hosts, that planted thee, hath pronounced evil against thee, for the evil of the house of Israel and of the house of Judah, which they have done against themselves to provoke me to anger in offering incense unto Baal.


Hos 14:1 O Israel, return unto the LORD thy God; for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity.
Hos 14:2 Take with you words, and turn to the LORD: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive us graciously: so will we render the calves of our lips.
Hos 14:3 Asshur shall not save us; we will not ride upon horses: neither will we say any more to the work of our hands, Ye are our gods: for in thee the fatherless findeth mercy.
Hos 14:4 I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely: for mine anger is turned away from him.
Hos 14:5 I will be as the dew unto Israel: he shall grow as the lily, and cast forth his roots as Lebanon.
Hos 14:6 His branches shall spread, and his beauty shall be as the olive tree[/B], and his smell as Lebanon.
 
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Grip Docility

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Israel is also an olive tree.

Jer 11:16 The LORD called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken.
There is a tree with natural or original branches. Those branches are the Jewish people making the tree Israel. After Christ came branches that rejected Him are removed, and gentile branches that accept Christ are added to it. The tree is still representative of Israel because it has many original branches/Jews, it just now includes gentiles as well as Jews, all who are Christians/Messianics.
Jer 11:17 For the LORD of hosts, that planted thee, hath pronounced evil against thee, for the evil of the house of Israel and of the house of Judah, which they have done against themselves to provoke me to anger in offering incense unto Baal.


Hos 14:1 O Israel, return unto the LORD thy God; for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity.
Hos 14:2 Take with you words, and turn to the LORD: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive us graciously: so will we render the calves of our lips.
Hos 14:3 Asshur shall not save us; we will not ride upon horses: neither will we say any more to the work of our hands, Ye are our gods: for in thee the fatherless findeth mercy.
Hos 14:4 I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely: for mine anger is turned away from him.
Hos 14:5 I will be as the dew unto Israel: he shall grow as the lily, and cast forth his roots as Lebanon.
Hos 14:6 His branches shall spread, and his beauty shall be as the olive tree[/B], and his smell as Lebanon.

So Ephesians 2... when it says “New Man”... right after the doing away with the OLD covenant...

Are you proposing the New man isn’t a NEW man that Both are joined within?

So... it’s the “Old Man” And we’re still under the Old Covenant?

The word Testator is about to get dropped. If anyone sees where this is headed, feel free to drive it home. :p

Oh... yeah.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Oh, well since Paul didn’t know who Darby was, I guess you call me Old School. :D

Romans 9, Romans 10, Romans 11

Acts 1, Zechariah 14, Joel 2, Joel 3

Romans 9-11 is ultimately about God's grace for all sinners, that's kind of the big theme of Romans. Paul doesn't begin some new theme in Romans 9, he is continuing the same series of arguments which he began in the first chapter, namely, "I am not ashamed of the Gospel for it is the power of God to save all who believe, the Jew first and also the Gentile. Through it the justice of God is revealed from faith to faith, as it is written, 'The just shall live by faith.'" The Gospel is for all sinners, Jew and Gentile alike. That is why the Apostle can say, in Romans 11, that God "consigned all to disobedience in order that He might have mercy on all."

I'm not sure what you think is in Acts 1 that is helpful here, it is here that Jesus instructs His disciples to wait for the promise of the Holy Spirit, which is fulfilled in the next chapter during Pentecost with the outpouring of the Spirit on all flesh as foretold by the Prophet Joel.

I also don't have a clue why you mention Zechariah 14.

-CryptoLUtheran
 
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Daniel Marsh

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But I would say a clearly wrong meaning of replacement would be any idea which says we Gentiles have replaced the Jews. .

Please document from primary sources from those who teach the wrong meaning.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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T

I believe it is at this point RTs usually make their error.

Please document from primary sources with links, so context can be checked.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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The term "replacement theology" is a pejorative description. It is only used by those in opposition to the Church becoming Israel. It is typically used by Dispensational futurists.

That is my impression too which is why I am asking for ...

Please document from primary sources of those who teach "replacement theology" with links, so context can be checked.
 
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Please define Replacement Theology from primary sources of those who teach it with links to the texts being quoted, so the quotes can be checked in context.

It's false doctrine, but's the idea that Christians are now Israel. One of their favorite verses is, Rom. 2:29, which in context is comparing Jewish believers to Jewish unbelievers.
 
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