Religious education needed, please.

[dlamberth]

And your evidence is for this view?

The evidence that has convinced me is in my "seeing" the Divine Spark everywhere I look.

 

[dlamberth]

If you believe you are required to earn your salvation by works, good deeds, rites and ceremonies you are not following theJesus as found in the bible.

The way I see it is that if a person is NOT doing works, good deeds and helping those in need, they clearly are NOT following Jesus as found in the Bible.

 

[Tolworth John]

That would be incorrect.

Islam says it is the only way.
Buddhism is the way to enlightenment so if it is the way other ways are false.
Hinduism is willing to accept other believes but only if , for example, that mohamed is just another guru teching about a way to the hindu panthian of gods, ditto in respect of Jesus.

ifyou know of a religion that says every religion is true state it.

 

[dlamberth]

....

 

[Tolworth John]

The evidence that has convinced me is in my "seeing" the Divine Spark everywhere I look.

And what does the devine spark teach you about the devine?
How does it teach you about worshipping the devine?
How do you test that what it is teaching you is true?
How do yo
]

 

[Tolworth John]

The way I see it is that if a person is NOT doing works, good deeds and helping those in need, they clearly are NOT following Jesus as found in the Bible.

And I would agree with you.

But you are missing the point.

Those deeds do not save, they are only a sign that one is seeking to be obedient to Jesus's command to love others as he has loved.

 

[Tolworth John]

And what does the devine spark teach you about the devine?
How does it teach you about worshipping the devine?
How do you test that what it is teaching you is true?
How do yo
]

Sorry last line should read

How do you test that what the devine spark is teaching you is true?

 

[Rajni]

Actually it does.

We are saved by faith and out of love do good deeds etc as a sign that we have faith.

If you believe you are required to earn your salvation by works, good deeds, rites and ceremonies you are not following theJesus as found in the bible.

Christianity insists that you must believe to be saved. That is a requirement.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

Islam says it is the only way.
Buddhism is the way to enlightenment so if it is the way other ways are false.
Hinduism is willing to accept other believes but only if , for example, that mohamed is just another guru teching about a way to the hindu panthian of gods, ditto in respect of Jesus.

ifyou know of a religion that says every religion is true state it.

You sure like to move the goal post don’t you?

There is quite a difference between your quote “In fact every religion says that other religions are false.”

And “if you know of a religion that says every religion is true state it.”

 

[TheOldWays]

Yet your experience does not give you the peace to continue on a set path.

I have good peace right now as I have realised there is no true peace on a set path. I chased many religions and spiritual paths for years and they all lead back to the same place Christianity left me. Only in discovering that I must take hold of my own reality and not depend on other people's ideas of what my reality should be, did I discover peace.

Your experience! Not very reliable given that you are going round many different beliefs.

I will trust my experience as it has taught me a great deal about religion and spirituality despite failing many times in many paths. It's odd that you consider experiencing different ideas and learning about them as a bad thing. I wasn't satisfied with what Christianity was providing me spiritually, so I left. I tried many other paths and they were the same. All this experience lead me to realise that man made religions and path are never going to satisfy me. It's all about learning and growing.

 

[dlamberth]

All good questions;

And what does the devine spark teach you about the devine?

That all is sacred and holy and that we need to be responding as such.

How does it teach you about worshipping the devine?

That gratitude and thanks giving is the heart of Prayer and as such that I need to be in a constant state of thankfullness which puts me in a constant state of prayer.

How do you test that what it is teaching you is true?

I look at myself to see if I'm becoming a better Human Being. Such things as becoming more Loving, Compassionate, Empathetic, in Service to those in need and just enjoying life more fully with laughter and closeness to family and friends are a few of the guide post that I look at within myself.

 

[dlamberth]

And I would agree with you.

But you are missing the point.

Those deeds do not save, they are only a sign that one is seeking to be obedient to Jesus's command to love others as he has loved.

From my perspective, it's not at all about getting Saved. I have left that completely up to God. What I can do and what IS the point, is to have God as my reality in life TODAY where God is needed the most. And the way that God is made a reality in ones life is in the way we treat other human beings and in what we see in them.

Below is an example of what I'm pointing towards in story as told by Mother Teresa of Calcutta about one of her sisters. I came across this jewel while reading "The Inner Eye of Love: Mysticism and Religion" by William Johnston.

“During the mass,” I said, “you saw that the priest touched the body of Christ with great love and tenderness. When you touch the poor today, you too will be touching the body of Christ. Give them the same love and tenderness.” When they return several hours later, the new sister came up to me, her face shining with joy, “I have been touching the body of Christ of three hours,“ she said. I asked her what she had done, “Just as we arrived, the sister brought in a man covered with maggots. He had been picked up from drain. I have been taking care of him, I have been touching Christ. I know it was him,” she said.

 

[Monksailor]

If I were looking for information about Christianity, I would take any information I received about it from a Shinto Priest with a few grains of salt. The same would hold true about information about Islam from Christians.

That is why I gave a link which refers to text from the Koran AND Hadith. Since you have challenged the authenticity of what I have shared I will give more and much better NON-Christian substantiation which also includes verses from other Islamic religious and political books. This comes from a NON-Christian source and here is their intorductory statement at the beginning of their "About" page: "TheReligionofPeace.com is a pluralistic, non-partisan site concerned with Islam's political and religious teachings according to its own texts. The purpose is to counter whitewashing and explain the threat that Islam truly poses to human dignity and freedom, as well as the violence and dysfunction that ensues as a direct consequence of this religion's supremacist ideology." On the home page one finds this article: "Deception, Lying, and Taqiyya" and excerpts are below (please go to site for a much, much more comprehensive collection of Condemning Islamic verses and such. I can only give the tip of the iceberg here.)
"There are several forms of lying to non-believers that are permitted under certain circumstances, the best known being taqiyya. These circumstances are typically those that advance the cause of Islam - in some cases by gaining the trust of non-believers in order to draw out their vulnerability and defeat them.

Quran
Quran (3:28) - This verse tells Muslims not to take those outside the faith as friends, unless it is to "guard themselves" against danger, meaning that there are times when a Muslim may appear friendly to non-Muslims, even though they should not feel friendly.

Quran (3:54) - "And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers." The Arabic word used here for scheme (or plot) is makara, which literally means 'deceit'. If Allah is supremely deceitful toward unbelievers, then there is little basis for denying that Muslims are allowed to do the same. (See also 8:30 and 10:21)

Taken collectively these verses (and several others at the web page) are interpreted to mean that there are circumstances when a Muslim may be "compelled" to deceive others for a greater purpose.

Hadith and Sira (Other Islamic Holy Books)
Sahih Bukhari (52:269) - "The Prophet said, 'War is deceit.'" The context of this is thought to be the murder of Usayr ibn Zarim and his thirty unarmed companions by Muhammad's men after they were "guaranteed" safe passage (see Additional Notes below).
Sahih Bukhari (84:64-65) - Speaking from a position of power at the time, Ali confirms that lying is permitted in order to deceive an "enemy."
Sahih Bukhari (50:369) - Recounts the murder of a poet, Ka'b bin al-Ashraf, at Muhammad's insistence. The men who volunteered for the assassination used dishonesty to gain Ka'b's trust, pretending that they had turned against Muhammad. This drew the victim out of his fortress, whereupon he was brutally slaughtered.
From Islamic Law:
Reliance of the Traveler (p. 746 - 8.2) - "Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible (N:i.e. when the purpose of lying is to circumvent someone who is preventing one from doing something permissible), and obligatory to lie if the goal is obligatory... it is religiously precautionary in all cases to employ words that give a misleading impression... (See the Permissible Lying section on the Sharia page for more)

"One should compare the bad consequences entailed by lying to those entailed by telling the truth, and if the consequences of telling the truth are more damaging, one is entitled to lie."
Notes
The Hadith makes it clear that Muslims are allowed to lie to unbelievers in order to defeat them or protect themselves. There are several forms:

Taqiyya - Saying something that isn't true as it relates to the Muslim identity.

Kitman - Lying by omission. An example would be when Muslim apologists quote only a fragment of verse 5:32 (that if anyone kills "it shall be as if he had killed all mankind") while neglecting to mention that the rest of the verse (and the next) mandate murder in undefined cases of "corruption" and "mischief."

Tawriya - Intentionally creating a false impression.

Muruna - 'Blending in' by setting aside some practices of Islam or Sharia in order to advance others.

Though not called taqiyya by name, Muhammad clearly used deception when he signed a 10-year treaty with the Meccans (known as Hudaibiya) that allowed him access to their city while he secretly prepared his own forces for a takeover. The unsuspecting residents were conquered in easy fashion after he broke the treaty two years later. Some of the people in the city who had trusted him at his word were executed.

Another example of lying is when Muhammad used deception to trick his personal enemies into letting down their guard and exposing themselves to slaughter by pretending to seek peace. This happened in the case of Ka'b bin al-Ashraf (as previously noted) and later against Usayr ibn Zarim, a surviving leader of the Banu Nadir tribe, which had been evicted from their home in Medina by the Muslims.

At the time, Usayr ibn Zarim was attempting to gather an armed force against the Muslims from among a tribe allied with the Quraish (against which Muhammad had already declared war). Muhammad's "emissaries" went to ibn Zarim and persuaded him to leave his safe haven on the pretext of meeting with the prophet of Islam in Medina to discuss peace. Once vulnerable, the leader and his thirty companions were massacred by the Muslims with ease, probably because they were unarmed - having been given a guarantee of safe passage (Ibn Ishaq 981, Ibn Kathir v.4 p.300).

Today's apologists often rationalize Muhammad's murder of poets and others who criticized him at Medina by falsely claiming that they broke a treaty with their actions. Yet, these same apologists place little value on treaties broken by Muslims. From Muhammad to Saddam Hussein, promises made to non-Muslim are distinctly non-binding in the Muslim mindset.

The 9/11 hijackers practiced deception by going into bars and drinking alcohol, thus throwing off potential suspicion that they were fundamentalists plotting jihad. This effort worked so well that John Walsh, the host of a popular American television show, claimed well after the fact that their bar trips were evidence of 'hypocrisy.'

The Islamic Society of North America (ISNA) insists that it "has not now or ever been involved with the Muslim Brotherhood, or supported any covert, illegal, or terrorist activity or organization." In fact, it was created by the Muslim Brotherhood and has bankrolled Hamas. At least nine founders or board members of ISNA have been accused by prosecutors of supporting terrorism.

The notorious Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR) is so well known for shamelessly lying about its ties to terror and extremism that books have been written on the subject. They take seriously the part of Sharia that says "it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible and obligatory to lie if the goal is obligatory". The goal being the ascendency of Islam (and Sharia itself) on the American landscape.

Prior to engineering several deadly terror plots, such as the Fort Hood massacre and the attempt to blow up a Detroit-bound airliner, American cleric Anwar al-Awlaki was regularly sought out by NPR, PBS and even government leaders to expound on the peaceful nature of Islam.

In 2013, a scholar at the prestigious al-Azhar university decreed that Muslims may wear the cross in order to deceive Christians into thinking they are friendly. He cited 3:28 which says not to be friends with non-Muslims unless it is a way of "guarding" yourself against them.

The Quran says in several places that Allah is the best at deceiving people.

Finally, the circumstances by which Muhammad allowed a believer to lie to a non-spouse are limited to those that either advance the cause of Islam or enable a Muslim to avoid harm to his well-being (and presumably that of other Muslims as well). Although this should be kept very much in mind when dealing with matters of global security, such as Iran's nuclear intentions, it is not grounds for assuming that the Muslim one might personally encounter on the street or in the workplace is any less honest than anyone else." Like I said, there is much more in this presentation please go to the site below for it and more.



©2002 - 2017 Site developed by TheReligionofPeace.Com
All Rights Reserved

 

[Aryeh Jay]

That is why I gave a link which refers to text from the Koran AND Hadith. Since you have challenged the authenticity of what I have shared I will give more and much better NON-Christian substantiation which also includes verses from other Islamic religious and political books. This comes from a NON-Christian source and here is their intorductory statement at the beginning of their "About" page: "TheReligionofPeace.com is a pluralistic, non-partisan site concerned with Islam's political and religious teachings according to its own texts. The purpose is to counter whitewashing and explain the threat that Islam truly poses to human dignity and freedom, as well as the violence and dysfunction that ensues as a direct consequence of this religion's supremacist ideology." On the home page one finds this article: "Deception, Lying, and Taqiyya" and excerpts are below (please go to site for a much, much more comprehensive collection of Condemning Islamic verses and such. I can only give the tip of the iceberg here.)
"There are several forms of lying to non-believers that are permitted under certain circumstances, the best known being taqiyya. These circumstances are typically those that advance the cause of Islam - in some cases by gaining the trust of non-believers in order to draw out their vulnerability and defeat them.

Quran
Quran (3:28) - This verse tells Muslims not to take those outside the faith as friends, unless it is to "guard themselves" against danger, meaning that there are times when a Muslim may appear friendly to non-Muslims, even though they should not feel friendly.

Quran (3:54) - "And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers." The Arabic word used here for scheme (or plot) is makara, which literally means 'deceit'. If Allah is supremely deceitful toward unbelievers, then there is little basis for denying that Muslims are allowed to do the same. (See also 8:30 and 10:21)

Taken collectively these verses (and several others at the web page) are interpreted to mean that there are circumstances when a Muslim may be "compelled" to deceive others for a greater purpose.

Hadith and Sira (Other Islamic Holy Books)
Sahih Bukhari (52:269) - "The Prophet said, 'War is deceit.'" The context of this is thought to be the murder of Usayr ibn Zarim and his thirty unarmed companions by Muhammad's men after they were "guaranteed" safe passage (see Additional Notes below).
Sahih Bukhari (84:64-65) - Speaking from a position of power at the time, Ali confirms that lying is permitted in order to deceive an "enemy."
Sahih Bukhari (50:369) - Recounts the murder of a poet, Ka'b bin al-Ashraf, at Muhammad's insistence. The men who volunteered for the assassination used dishonesty to gain Ka'b's trust, pretending that they had turned against Muhammad. This drew the victim out of his fortress, whereupon he was brutally slaughtered.
From Islamic Law:
Reliance of the Traveler (p. 746 - 8.2) - "Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible (N:i.e. when the purpose of lying is to circumvent someone who is preventing one from doing something permissible), and obligatory to lie if the goal is obligatory... it is religiously precautionary in all cases to employ words that give a misleading impression... (See the Permissible Lying section on the Sharia page for more)

"One should compare the bad consequences entailed by lying to those entailed by telling the truth, and if the consequences of telling the truth are more damaging, one is entitled to lie."
Notes
The Hadith makes it clear that Muslims are allowed to lie to unbelievers in order to defeat them or protect themselves. There are several forms:

Taqiyya - Saying something that isn't true as it relates to the Muslim identity.

Kitman - Lying by omission. An example would be when Muslim apologists quote only a fragment of verse 5:32 (that if anyone kills "it shall be as if he had killed all mankind") while neglecting to mention that the rest of the verse (and the next) mandate murder in undefined cases of "corruption" and "mischief."

Tawriya - Intentionally creating a false impression.

Muruna - 'Blending in' by setting aside some practices of Islam or Sharia in order to advance others.

Though not called taqiyya by name, Muhammad clearly used deception when he signed a 10-year treaty with the Meccans (known as Hudaibiya) that allowed him access to their city while he secretly prepared his own forces for a takeover. The unsuspecting residents were conquered in easy fashion after he broke the treaty two years later. Some of the people in the city who had trusted him at his word were executed.

Another example of lying is when Muhammad used deception to trick his personal enemies into letting down their guard and exposing themselves to slaughter by pretending to seek peace. This happened in the case of Ka'b bin al-Ashraf (as previously noted) and later against Usayr ibn Zarim, a surviving leader of the Banu Nadir tribe, which had been evicted from their home in Medina by the Muslims.

At the time, Usayr ibn Zarim was attempting to gather an armed force against the Muslims from among a tribe allied with the Quraish (against which Muhammad had already declared war). Muhammad's "emissaries" went to ibn Zarim and persuaded him to leave his safe haven on the pretext of meeting with the prophet of Islam in Medina to discuss peace. Once vulnerable, the leader and his thirty companions were massacred by the Muslims with ease, probably because they were unarmed - having been given a guarantee of safe passage (Ibn Ishaq 981, Ibn Kathir v.4 p.300).

Today's apologists often rationalize Muhammad's murder of poets and others who criticized him at Medina by falsely claiming that they broke a treaty with their actions. Yet, these same apologists place little value on treaties broken by Muslims. From Muhammad to Saddam Hussein, promises made to non-Muslim are distinctly non-binding in the Muslim mindset.

The 9/11 hijackers practiced deception by going into bars and drinking alcohol, thus throwing off potential suspicion that they were fundamentalists plotting jihad. This effort worked so well that John Walsh, the host of a popular American television show, claimed well after the fact that their bar trips were evidence of 'hypocrisy.'

The Islamic Society of North America (ISNA) insists that it "has not now or ever been involved with the Muslim Brotherhood, or supported any covert, illegal, or terrorist activity or organization." In fact, it was created by the Muslim Brotherhood and has bankrolled Hamas. At least nine founders or board members of ISNA have been accused by prosecutors of supporting terrorism.

The notorious Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR) is so well known for shamelessly lying about its ties to terror and extremism that books have been written on the subject. They take seriously the part of Sharia that says "it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible and obligatory to lie if the goal is obligatory". The goal being the ascendency of Islam (and Sharia itself) on the American landscape.

Prior to engineering several deadly terror plots, such as the Fort Hood massacre and the attempt to blow up a Detroit-bound airliner, American cleric Anwar al-Awlaki was regularly sought out by NPR, PBS and even government leaders to expound on the peaceful nature of Islam.

In 2013, a scholar at the prestigious al-Azhar university decreed that Muslims may wear the cross in order to deceive Christians into thinking they are friendly. He cited 3:28 which says not to be friends with non-Muslims unless it is a way of "guarding" yourself against them.

The Quran says in several places that Allah is the best at deceiving people.

Finally, the circumstances by which Muhammad allowed a believer to lie to a non-spouse are limited to those that either advance the cause of Islam or enable a Muslim to avoid harm to his well-being (and presumably that of other Muslims as well). Although this should be kept very much in mind when dealing with matters of global security, such as Iran's nuclear intentions, it is not grounds for assuming that the Muslim one might personally encounter on the street or in the workplace is any less honest than anyone else." Like I said, there is much more in this presentation please go to the site below for it and more.



©2002 - 2017 Site developed by TheReligionofPeace.Com
All Rights Reserved

Why yes, a completely unbiased site. I could cherry pick all day, but then I would feel obligated to make a pie with the rain coming soon, it is over the lake but should be hitting land real soon according to the radar.

Taqiyya, is that like lying so you don’t have to take gay wedding pictures?

 

[juvenissun]

The new age religion tends to say things such as "I am God"

Thanks, but this is not new at all.

 

[juvenissun]

If it's other stories you want, the world is full of them.

I can't fathom why a Christian would want to tempt himself with such things though, unless your faith is strong and well-grounded and you need it to interact with others. It's always good to be aware of our motives and mindful of what we are doing.

Yes, I think I am very strong in Christian theology. That is why.

 

[juvenissun]

The most surprising teaching about or from all other religions othjer than Christianity, is that the god of that rligion does not love the worshipper. The worshipper has to earn the gods love.

This might be true in Buddhism. But is it true in Islam?

 

[juvenissun]

The core, fundamental teaching of Buddhism is the personal recognition of the truth of cause & effect (kamma): effects are always proportional to their causes.

All other teachings (e.g. ongoing rebirth, dependent origination, the samsaric cycle, noble truths, eightfold Path, etc.) rests on this foundation.

Thanks.
I would say this idea is very human and is not new. We all recognize that if there is an action, then there will be a consequential reaction.

 

[juvenissun]

Here is one from Islam. The Koran totally excuses a follower for lying, deceiving, and subversively feigning loyalty to and belief in any other religious or political system for the purpose of furthering Islam in the world. See at: <strong>Islam Permits Lying to Deceive Unbelievers and Bring World Domination!</strong>

Thank you very much. This one is special. And I do not quite understand the justification behind it.

Do anything to promote Islam. But do not do that to people within Islam. I think it may have logic contradiction in this concept. One action could be good or bad, depends on if it is used to promote Islam. If so, is there an absolute value of Islam, or the Allah? In particular, the concept of sin is totally confused in Islam.

 

[juvenissun]

• • Allah loves those who are spiritual pure and clean al-Baqarah 2:222
  • Allah loves those who do good al-Baqarah 2:195; Âl 'Imran 3:134
  • Allah loves those who keep faith and act rightly Âl 'Imran 3:76

In all the examples above, the love of God is conditional upon the believer being good or clean. If the believer should turn back from God, Allah does not love him any more (Âl 'Imran 3:32). see also LOVE of God, and the unbelievers

Thanks.
However, this concept is very normal to human. And it is not surprised that human could craft out such a doctrine in a religion.

Human can even say: "If you love me, I love you. If you don't love me, I would still love you." This is easy to see in many parents-children relationship.