Rejected passages

[ToBeBlessed]

I was hoping you would quote scripture and examples, but I guess not.

I don't see the connection or why you see it this way.

 

[timewerx]

To the Jews he would say he was for the law, but would stress the prophecies of Christ and His gentle commandments - I do not think he taught them to keep all the old traditions, rituals and practices. He was trying to teach them the true spiritual law I think, but they would think "rituals" when the word "law" was used.
To the Gentiles he would preach against "the law" meaning the rituals and feast keeping and the other rote practices of Judaism, and would stress that Christ fulfilled the law, and that they did not have to follow those rote legal traditions but were "freed" from the "law."
So he was preaching to their thought processes to try to help them understand.
This is why I think he is confusing. Because among other things he uses the word "law" differently in different contexts. Somewhat similarly with "faith" and "salvation." I believe there are modern Christian sects which take passages from his epistles all too literally, and in an interpretation which conflicts with the very words of Christ.
I don't find Paul to be rogue, but just interpreted too literally or legalistically at times.

How come, we did not have this much problem from first-hand narratives of Christ?

Because Christ was consistent! He did not "massage" the Gospel for anyone and in fact, for some, it condemned them!

So he was preaching to their thought processes to try to help them understand.

Can you preach calculus to birds?? No. Calculus for humans, chirping for birds, the Gospel (Good News) for the lost sheep, false teachings to the wolves. that's all there is to it. You can't turn a wolf into sheep, you can't toss pearls to swine.

 

[ananda]

According to Messiah Himself, His message and Way was the same, for both Jew and Gentile, and He sent His eleven apostles to the world to preach that one message (cf Mt 28:18-20).

Though if one reads Paul's reinterpretation, one would probably think otherwise.

 

[rick357]

According to Messiah Himself, His message and Way was the same, for both Jew and Gentile, and He sent His eleven apostles to the world to preach that one message (cf Mt 28:18-20).

Though if one reads Paul's reinterpretation, one would probably think otherwise.

Pauls message was the same for all Adam can not avoid death...so the Adam in us must be crucified in Christ that the new man whos life is directly from God can live one with God...The Jews had been taught what was right and Godly but it could never be attained by their Adamic nature his point of not being circumsized was that the flesh could not attain to the truth contained in the law...but he instead taught that dependance on Christ to live through us would make the gentiles do by nature what was contained in the law.

 

[ToBeBlessed]

According to Messiah Himself, His message and Way was the same, for both Jew and Gentile, and He sent His eleven apostles to the world to preach that one message (cf Mt 28:18-20).

How many of the apostles besides Paul, left Israel to spread the Good News? Please include scripture supporting this.

 

[ananda]

How many of the apostles besides Paul, left Israel to spread the Good News? Please include scripture supporting this.

Peter had a ministry to the Gentiles (1Pet 1:1, 2Pet 1:1); John also, as he oversaw the seven churches in Asia Minor (Rev 1:4), the same churches which likely rejected Paul. Also, Jude wrote to all "them that are sanctified" (Jude 1:1).

Traditional histories also places the twelve apostles in Gentile lands far from Israel (e.g. Thomas in India, Bartholemew to Armenia, Matthias to Ethiopia, etc.)

 

[ananda]

Pauls message was the same for all Adam can not avoid death...so the Adam in us must be crucified in Christ that the new man whos life is directly from God can live one with God...The Jews had been taught what was right and Godly but it could never be attained by their Adamic nature his point of not being circumsized was that the flesh could not attain to the truth contained in the law...but he instead taught that dependance on Christ to live through us would make the gentiles do by nature what was contained in the law.

I agree with that ... what I disagree with is Paul's faith & grace only message, which divorces the need for faithfulness (obedience). I see Messiah, Peter, John, James, and Jude teaching the need for both.

 

[rick357]

I agree with that ... what I disagree with is Paul's faith & grace only message, which divorces the need for faithfulness (obedience). I see Messiah, Peter, John, James, and Jude teaching the need for both.

No Paul strongly teaches obediance....look at his list in wich he says if you do these things you will not inherit the kingdom of heaven....what Paul is saying is Christ must live through you and christ is obediant....if Adam lives through you he can never be obediant. His statment of work out your own salvation is about doing the math....if the self is in bondage by Adam to sin then no matter how hard you work you will sin...we must trust christ to live through us if we wish to obey God...this is Pauls grace.....it was men who turned it into an excuse and covering for their sin.

 

[Albion]

I agree with that ... what I disagree with is Paul's faith & grace only message, which divorces the need for faithfulness (obedience). I see Messiah, Peter, John, James, and Jude teaching the need for both.

What you are advocating seems to me to be just another version of "works righteousness."

How it could be argued that we are saved, in whole or in part, by our own efforts or some accumulation of our good deeds is a question.

 

[ananda]

No Paul strongly teaches obediance....look at his list in wich he says if you do these things you will not inherit the kingdom of heaven....what Paul is saying is Christ must live through you and christ is obediant....if Adam lives through you he can never be obediant. His statment of work out your own salvation is about doing the math....if the self is in bondage by Adam to sin then no matter how hard you work you will sin...we must trust christ to live through us if we wish to obey God...this is Pauls grace.....it was men who turned it into an excuse and covering for their sin.

Do you believe we can do righteousness after we have faith in Messiah, and that such faithfulness is required of us?

In other words, do you believe that a wife can and should do good things for her husband?

 

[ananda]

What you are advocating seems to me to be just another version of "works righteousness."

How it could be argued that we are saved, in whole or in part, by our own efforts or some accumulation of our good deeds is a question.

I have no problem with works aka faithfulness as a contributive part of our righteousness.

 

[ToBeBlessed]

Phillipians 4:13
"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me"

 

[ToBeBlessed]

I have no problem with works as a contributive part of our righteousness.

^^ This is a real problemo.

 

[Albion]

I have no problem with works as a contributive part of our righteousness.

I know.

My point, however, was that we shouldn't talk as though "faithfulness" is anything other than works righteousness, and there is nothing new about a theology based upon the premise that we are saved by our own strivings.

 

[ananda]

^^ This is a real problemo.

Why's that?

 

[ananda]

I know.

My point, however, was that we shouldn't talk as though "faithfulness" is anything other than works righteousness, and there is nothing new about a theology based upon the premise that we are saved by our own strivings.

Yes, faithfulness involves personal effort, and I can see how some might define that as "works". I suppose I do not have a preconceived aversion towards faithfulness in this regard.

However, "we are saved by our own strivings" is not an accurate reflection of my beliefs. I believe that we are saved as a consequence of having a true husband-wife relationship with Messiah ... and that true relationship involves love, trust, faith, and faithfulness.

 

[Albion]

Yes, faithfulness involves personal effort, and I can see how some might define that as "works".

Ya think?

 

[ananda]

Ya think?

Yep.

 

[rick357]

Do you believe we can do righteousness after we have faith in Messiah, and that such faithfulness is required of us?

In other words, do you believe that a wife can and should do good things for her husband?

Only if the two are one...if she does what she feels is what I need then she is not my help but her own and is acting independant of me based on what she percieves I need....this action while showing a goodness toward me is not being one with me.