Rejected passages

[Colter]

I expect I may be posting this in the wrong section, if not entirely the wrong forum so will not be surprised to be told to go elsewhere. I am not a Christian but an agnostic with an interest in biblical studies. My reasons for not being a believer I won't bore you with at this time.
My question is this - - having recently stumbled across the passage below from the Koran and re-read John Shelby Spong's 'The Sins of Scripture' and Douglas Lockharts's 'The Dark Side of God: A Quest for the Lost Heart of Christianity' I wonder if anyone here can list passages in The Old Testament (maybe in the New?) they either fully or partially reject. Jeremiah Ch 18: V: 15 - 17 comes to mind.

_____________________________________________________________

"Oh Lord! For the day of whose coming there is not doubt, thou wilt surely gather mankind together. Verily, God will not fail the promise.
As for the infidels, their wealth, and their children, shall avail them nothing against God. They shall be fuel for the fire.
After the wont of the people of Pharaoh, and of those who went before them, they treated our signs as falsehoods. Therefore God laid hold of them in their sins, and God is severe in punishing .
Say to the infidels: ye shall be worsted, and to Hell shall ye be gathered together; and wretched the couch!"
Koran : Sura 3: V 7-10.

As a disciple of Jesus it would probably be easier to compile the passages that I do believe. The OT was redacted during the Babylonian captivity, they converted ordinary secular history into a miraculous fiction. The NT is basically a discussion of Paul's personal experience and bias, much of it having been written after Paul began his overwhelming preaching and subsequent influence of the NT writers.

 

[Der Alte]

Please read more carefully. I choose not to communicate with those who continually misinterpret me.

I have not misinterpreted you. Evidently your statement was so vague that you did not communicate clearly. Since your quote from the Quran says nothing about the God, Jesus, the Bible, or Christianity it is irrelevant in this forum.

Yes it does, so what?

So don't use the Quran to try to prove/disprove anything about God, Jesus, the Bible, or Christianity.

Seriously,you should repeat philosophy 101 year one. Congratulations on your attempt at lucidity.

The contradictory philosophical babblings of so-called scholars are irrelevant to me. Speaking of ludidity when do you plan to start being lucid?

 

[Der Alte]

. . . The OT was redacted during the Babylonian captivity, they converted ordinary secular history into a miraculous fiction.

Evidence? Documentation? Substantiation?

The NT is basically a discussion of Paul's personal ...bias, ...

Evidence? Documentation? Substantiation?

 

[Colter]

Evidence? Documentation? Substantiation?



Evidence? Documentation? Substantiation?

Are you not familiar with the documentary hypotheses? It only requires just a little bit of common sense to realize that much of the OT is an exaggerated fiction meant for an Israelite audience. The Hebrew alphabet wasn't even in existence during the times of Moses.

What was the gospel before the cross?

 

[timewerx]

Evidence? Documentation? Substantiation?



Evidence? Documentation? Substantiation?

Evidence, Documentation, and Substantiation of your support of Paul??

Don't bother, there is none.

Anyone can be a "real apostle" if they can bring two "witnesses" with them and spread a story with enough consistency that they saw Jesus in the middle of nowhere. Doesn't matter whether it happened or not or whether that spirit is counterfeit or not.

 

[Meta Tron]

Still in all, the Exploring Christianity forum would come closer to being the correct place, as was suggested to you. This one certainly is not, so you'd be doing yourself a favor by making the move...and pronto.

Actually, I find this thread to be quintessentially appropriate for discussion in a Non-Orthodox forum context. It is obvious that it strikes a common chord among many who consider themselves to be Christians in an unorthodox sense.

 

[Albion]

Actually, I find this thread to be quintessentially appropriate for discussion in a Non-Orthodox forum context. It is obvious that it strikes a common chord among many who consider themselves to be Christians in an unorthodox sense.

The rules require participants to be Christians. Here's the "sticky" that you might have missed:


UDD Statement of Purpose

Welcome to Unorthodox Doctrinal Discussion. UDD is a forum for all discussion of unorthodox theology and fellowship. This is a Christian only area, however both orthodox and unorthodox Christians are welcome to post here. This is a statement that identifies the purpose of this forum and delineates how the rules will be applied here.

 

[Meta Tron]

The rules require participants to be Christians. Here's the "sticky" that you might have missed:


UDD Statement of Purpose

Welcome to Unorthodox Doctrinal Discussion. UDD is a forum for all discussion of unorthodox theology and fellowship. This is a Christian only area, however both orthodox and unorthodox Christians are welcome to post here. This is a statement that identifies the purpose of this forum and delineates how the rules will be applied here.

Not a problem at all. I (as a self professed Christian) would be happy to re-post this thread if that would make you any happier.

 

[Der Alte]

Are you not familiar with the documentary hypotheses? It only requires just a little bit of common sense to realize that much of the OT is an exaggerated fiction meant for an Israelite audience. The Hebrew alphabet wasn't even in existence during the times of Moses.

What was the gospel before the cross?

Assertions without evidence.

The Undead Hypothesis: Why the Documentary Hypothesis is the Frankenstein of Biblical Studies.

The documentary hypothesis is a zombie; it is dead but still roaming the halls of Old Testament scholarship seeking its next victim. What can account for this? The only answer can be that no paradigm has arisen to replace the documentary hypothesis as an explanation for the problem of the origin of the Pentateuch. Thus, professors of Old Testament persist in teaching it, even though a large number, one suspects, know that it is not true. Sadly, when confronted with the documentary hypothesis, many students and lay readers are dazzled by the apparent sophistication of the scholarship, and are especially captivated by the fact that “J” seems much more interesting than stodgy old Genesis with all its genealogies.
In Rethinking Genesis, I suggest that there are sources behind Genesis but that these sources are compatible with the idea of Mosaic authorship. In addition, I suggest that these sources had real ancient Near Eastern analogues (unlike J, E, D, and P, which are completely without parallel). Finally, I argue that these sources can be said to have had a real significance for Israel in Egypt and that the collection of these sources into the present book of Genesis during the exodus is the most satisfactory explanation for the writing of the book. I will leave it to the reader to decide whether Rethinking Genesis makes for a persuasive solution to the problem. But we can only hope that some paradigm that is not opposed to Scripture will finally put the documentary hypothesis in the grave once and for all.

http://www.sbts.edu/media/publications/sbjt/sbjt_2001fall4.pdf​

 

[Der Alte]

Evidence, Documentation, and Substantiation of your support of Paul??

Don't bother, there is none.

Anyone can be a "real apostle" if they can bring two "witnesses" with them and spread a story with enough consistency that they saw Jesus in the middle of nowhere. Doesn't matter whether it happened or not or whether that spirit is counterfeit or not.

Early Church Fathers. Not interested in your anti-Paul diatribes.

 

[Dissily Mordentroge]

Having apparently unwittingly thrown a brick into the wasps nest I depart with the impression some of you, in your odd exclusivity, have completely missed one of the central messages of the gospels.
Imagine if your Lord had refused to communicate with those who did not see themselves as Christian? Still, I can see the advantage of only permitting the chosen into your tent.
Must be very comforting, if you can ignore John Ch:17.V:9-10.

I'd like here to make a suggestion to the moderators. To avoid giving a misleading impression of tolerance it would be helpful if the forum's registration process did not list a number of choices that include perspectives other than Christianity. Some of you will feel much safer narrowing the gate to your earthly kingdom.

 

[Meta Tron]

Having apparently unwittingly thrown a brick into the wasps nest I depart with the impression some of you, in your odd exclusivity, have completely missed one of the central messages of the gospels.
Imagine if your Lord had refused to communicate with those who did not see themselves as Christian? Still, I can see the advantage of only permitting the chosen into your tent.
Must be very comforting.

What a shame that you would let a couple of manger dogs chase you away.

Just for the record, I find your self-description to be one that any Christian would do well to emulate.

to admit a long standing desire to see though the smoke screen of centuries of distortion in an attempt to discover who,and what, Christ actually was.

Just sayin....

 

[Colter]

The governance of the Catholic Church and the people who conspired to kill Jesus could never have been wrong about anything.

 

[Dissily Mordentroge]

The governance of the Catholic Church and the people who conspired to kill Jesus could never have been wrong about anything.

I'd go further and suggest if there is an antichrist it resides in Rome.
However, I confess my perspective could be totally warped by experiences as a youth during a period of 11 years studying the pipe organ at a Catholic cathedral. The rest I leave to your imaginations.

II Thessalonians. Ch:2. V:9-12 not withstanding I bid you all farewell..Angels of Grace and Mercy Protect You All from Doctrinal Delusion.

 

[Dissily Mordentroge]

What a shame that you would let a couple of manger dogs chase you away.

Just for the record, I find your self-description to be one that any Christian would do well to emulate.

Just sayin....

Thank you. However, considerable experience on this and similar forums has finally taught me attempts at open discussion that question received doctrine brings the biblical biggots out in swarms. Not having the patience and tolerance of your Lord I choose to depart.

 

[Colter]

I'd go further and suggest if there is an antichrist it resides in Rome.
However, I confess my perspective could be totally warped by experiences as a youth during a period of 11 years studying the pipe organ at a Catholic cathedral. The rest I leave to your imaginations.

II Thessalonians. Ch:2. V:9-12 not withstanding I bid you all farewell..Angels of Grace and Mercy Protect You All from Doctrinal Delusion.

Sorry about the violation of your trust, abuse by religious authority is the most despicable kind of crime! Lucifer was of the same ilk only on a enormous scale.

 

[RevelationTestament]

I expect I may be posting this in the wrong section, if not entirely the wrong forum so will not be surprised to be told to go elsewhere. I am not a Christian but an agnostic with an interest in biblical studies. My reasons for not being a believer I won't bore you with at this time.
My question is this - - having recently stumbled across the passage below from the Koran and re-read John Shelby Spong's 'The Sins of Scripture' and Douglas Lockharts's 'The Dark Side of God: A Quest for the Lost Heart of Christianity' I wonder if anyone here can list passages in The Old Testament (maybe in the New?) they either fully or partially reject. Jeremiah Ch 18: V: 15 - 17 comes to mind.

Despite being an unorthodox Christian section, this is still a Christian forum, and as you have seen some will insist you post elsewhere.
But to answer your question, there are whole books, and chapters which I reject. I reject the extra 2 chapters of Daniel found in Catholic Bibles.
I basically accept the KJV as the Word of God, but I believe it does contain text which has been slightly tampered with whether on purpose or inadvertently.
You also mentioned the Koran. One cannot expect to receive inspired words in a book which rejects Jesus Christ as the Son of God and is therefore antichrist. Indeed, I believe it is prophesied in Zech 5.
So if one believes the Bible, the Koran is a non-starter.
I wish you well. Search for God in the right place - His Word.

 

[timewerx]

Thank you. However, considerable experience on this and similar forums has finally taught me attempts at open discussion that question received doctrine brings the biblical biggots out in swarms. Not having the patience and tolerance of your Lord I choose to depart.

You would havw been a great addition in cf believe me ive been in worse aituations here.

Been doing what youre doing for 2years here. In case you change yout mind.

Theres one thing beyons dispute and that is the real world influence of chrisrianity in our world - take women in the bsckseat of leadership, obey your leaders as ministers of God even if he is joseph stalin - coutesy of Paul!

 

[Dissily Mordentroge]

You would havw been a great addition in cf believe me ive been in worse aituations here.

Been doing what youre doing for 2years here. In case you change yout mind.

Theres one thing beyond dispute and that is the real world influence of Christianity in our world - take women in the backseat of leadership, obey your leaders as ministers of God even if he is joseph stalin - coutesy of Paul!

Although I'd sworn not to post here again, due to the forum rule ( which I've never encountered on another forum) of having to make 15 posts before you can PM any member other than moderators, I find myself needing to . So, I'm forced to thank you in public for your understanding and broadmindedness .
I have always, even in my teen years, found Paul to be stranger than strange. At an instinctual level I felt there was something very wrong with his writings and in places downright neurotic especially in relation to women. Some of this could be due to others putting his name to their own meandering missives.
I wonder if you've read Douglas Lochhart's 'The Dark Side of God: A Quest for the Lost Heart of Christianity'? The title I find very odd, maybe the publishers invented it to boost sales because it certainly doesn't reflect the books main themes. At times a little prolix it none-the-less clears a path through the scriptural undergrowth and academic theological obscurity like few others.

Good luck in your struggle to make true believers see the light. I've reached a point where I now have to admit most of these cannot be helped to see beyond something which appears as arrogance yet actually hides an often unconscious and pathological fear of uncertainty.
"Talk no more so exceeding proudly; let not your arrogance come out of your mouth; for the Lord is a God of knowledge, and by him actions are weighed'
1st Samuel. Ch:2. V:3.

Again, thank you Timewerx for the welcome you have given me. All power to you in your efforts to introduce others to the second greatest gift after love we are blessed with, the faculty to learn and reason for ourselves.

 

[timewerx]

Although I'd sworn not to post here again I'm forced to due to the forum rule ( which I've never encountered on another forum) of having to make 15 posts before you can PM any member other than moderators. So, I'm forced to thank you for your understanding and broadmindedness out in public.
I have always, even in my teen years, found Paul to be stranger than strange. At an instinctual level I felt there was something very wrong with his writings, some of which are probably not even his.
I wonder if you've read Douglas Lochhart's 'The Dark Side of God: A Quest for the Lost Heart of Christianity'? The title I find very odd, maybe the publishers invented it to boost sales because it certainly doesn't reflect the books main themes. At times a little prolix it none-the-less clears a path through the scriptural undergrowth and academic theological obscurity like few others.

Good luck in your struggle to make true believers see the light. I've reached a point where I now have to admit most of these cannot be helped to see beyond something appearing as arrogance yet actually hiding an often unconscious and pathological fear of uncertainty.
"Talk no more so exceeding proudly; let not your arrogance come out of your mouth; for the Lord is a God of knowledge, and by him actions are weighed'
1st Samuel. Ch:2. V:3.

Again, thank you Timewerx for the welcome you have given me. All power to you in your efforts to introduce others to the second greatest gift after love we are blessed with, the faculty to learn and reason for ourselves.

No problem and thank you too! I haven't read the book. I found out about Paul independently.

I tried to acquit him of falsehood by even looking at Greek texts but the contradictions/worthless teachings are also present.

The reason I participate in cf is not to convince people to change their minds. In my 2 years of posting here, I think there's only 2 or 3 people who did and these are people who are already having some doubts against religion so I don't think I really convinced them. I simply confirmed what they already knew or beginning to realize.

The reason I keep posting despite the overwhelming resistance is let others know that they are not alone!

And most importantly, to expose evil.. It is what Jesus wanted anyway (John 7:7, together with John 14:12). Jesus wasn't nice to evil people even in His ministry. The Jesus of Paul is different and did not uphold justice.