Rejected passages

[ananda]

Ministration is the power source of A ministry....so we have changed from Adams ability and power to Yeshua's spirit

I don't see how such a view changes anything, in practical terms - the son, daughter, and wife must still walk in faithfulness.

The core of our difference, IMO, is if Messiah asked us to "believe Me" vs "believe & follow Me".

 

[Albion]

I don't see how such a view changes anything, in practical terms - the son, daughter, and wife must still walk in faithfulness.

The core of our difference, IMO, is if Messiah asked us to "believe Me" vs "believe & follow Me".

Actually, he did say to believe in Him. And he said that those who do are saved, will not walk in darkness, inherit eternal life, and much more.

 

[rick357]

I don't see how such a view changes anything, in practical terms - the son, daughter, and wife must still walk in faithfulness.

The core of our difference, IMO, is if Messiah asked us to "believe Me" vs "believe & follow Me".

Here is an interesting thing....in matthew Jesus speaks to two men and says follow me and I will make you fishers of men...
The word follow there has a conitation of being joined....yet when they follow him that word means become a disciple and join his party.
Something simular is happening here....I am speaking of literaly being one with his life yet you are speaking of emulating his life.....do you see the differance.

 

[ananda]

Actually, he did say to believe in Him. And he said that those who do are saved, will not walk in darkness, inherit eternal life, and much more.

Yes, I agree that He did say "believe," but the Greek word means more than just "believe" .. it also includes the idea of "faithfulness" aka following Him. Those who believe & are faithful/follow Him are saved, will not walk in darkness, inherit eternal life, and much more.

 

[ananda]

Here is an interesting thing....in matthew Jesus speaks to two men and says follow me and I will make you fishers of men...
The word follow there has a conitation of being joined....yet when they follow him that word means become a disciple and join his party.
Something simular is happening here....I am speaking of literaly being one with his life yet you are speaking of emulating his life.....do you see the differance.

"For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you." Jn 13:15

"For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps" 1Pet 2:21

"He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." 1Jo 2:6

I see Messiah, Peter, and John stating that we should emulate Messiah. How else can we be "one" with Him and His life?

 

[Albion]

Yes, I agree that He did say "believe," but the Greek word means more than just "believe" .. it also includes the idea of "faithfulness" aka following Him.

Yes, you've said that before, but it still doesn't mean that we're saved by our good deeds.

You're stringing together a couple of non-sequiturs there IMO. Believe = being "faithful." Faithfulness = obedience. Obedience = good works.

But Justification by Faith =/= Salvation is earned by our own efforts.

 

[ananda]

Yes, you've said that before, but it still doesn't mean that we're saved by our good deeds.

You're stringing together a couple of non-sequiturs there IMO. Believe = being "faithful." Faithfulness = obedience. Obedience = good works.

But Justification by Faith =/= Salvation is earned by our own efforts.

Again, I'm not saying that we're saved by our good deeds.

Faithfulness is merely one wheel on the car of salvation; faith is another wheel; love is yet another; etc. Parts of a car are essential to have a whole working car, and the whole car serves a purpose which the parts individually do not ... but the parts do not constitute the whole.

 

[rick357]

"For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you." Jn 13:15

"For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps" 1Pet 2:21

"He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." 1Jo 2:6

I see Messiah, Peter, and John stating that we should emulate Messiah. How else can we be "one" with Him and His life?

Is there something you can do to be one with him? He has to do that...all you can do is trust that he will....as to living your faith....you are right it has action....but you must lose your life to gain your life....
If you can hear it ...can satan cast out satan? Can Adam in you cast out Adam from you?...no
Only when your efforts die in him can his life live in you.....the strong man is bound (crucified in Christ)then all his goods are spoiled(lawless ways)
The life Messiah lives by the Spirit becomes your life as you trust him to give it to you....and that life changes you....what result does that have....you do by nature(his nature living through you)those things contained in the law....righteousness toward God and man.

 

[ananda]

Is there something you can do to be one with him? He has to do that...all you can do is trust that he will....as to living your faith....you are right it has action....but you must lose your life to gain your life....
If you can hear it ...can satan cast out satan? Can Adam in you cast out Adam from you?...no
Only when your efforts die in him can his life live in you.....the strong man is bound (crucified in Christ)then all his goods are spoiled(lawless ways)
The life Messiah lives by the Spirit becomes your life as you trust him to give it to you....and that life changes you....what result does that have....you do by nature(his nature living through you)those things contained in the law....righteousness toward God and man.

Let's put it in more practical terms: would you tell your wife and/or children that all she/they needs is to have faith in you? That faithfulness, etc. is optional?

I don't think it has to be as difficult as Paul puts it. I think that Messiah was simple & straightforward, and asked His disciples to love and follow Him, and do as He did - a simple theology that even children could understand, and one that eminently reflects the Father-Child, Husband-Wife relationship they wish to have with us.

 

[ToBeBlessed]

Here is an interesting thing....in matthew Jesus speaks to two men and says follow me and I will make you fishers of men...
The word follow there has a conitation of being joined....yet when they follow him that word means become a disciple and join his party.
Something simular is happening here....I am speaking of literaly being one with his life yet you are speaking of emulating his life.....do you see the differance.

*lightbulb moment*

I see exactly what you are saying Rick.

 

[ToBeBlessed]

Let's put it in more practical terms: would you tell your wife and/or children that all she/they needs is to have faith in you? That faithfulness, etc. is optional?

I don't think it has to be as difficult as Paul puts it. I think that Messiah was simple & straightforward, and asked His disciples to love and follow Him, and do as He did - a simple theology that even children could understand, and one that eminently reflects the Father-Child, Husband-Wife relationship they wish to have with us.

Not only did they follow him or do as he did, but Jesus taught them and others during His time on earth. After Jesus left them, with the power of the Holy Spirit in them, they were able to walk with Christ.

What I think that Rick is saying is that if Jesus resides within us and His Word is written on our hearts and He sent His comforter, the Holy Spirit to teach us, then we can be one with Christ and OUR LIVES be a reflection of Him living within us, not just us following (imitating) who He was, while He was a physical man during His time on earth.

 

[ananda]

Not only did they follow him or do as he did, but Jesus taught them and others during His time on earth. After Jesus left them, with the power of the Holy Spirit in them, they were able to walk with Christ.

What I think that Rick is saying is that if Jesus resides within us and His Word is written on our hearts and He sent His comforter, the Holy Spirit to teach us, then we can be one with Christ and OUR LIVES be a reflection of Him living within us, not just us following (imitating) who He was, while He was a physical man during His time on earth.

Yes, I understand that and agree - our lives should reflect Jesus and His life, and we do so by following in His footsteps, and doing as He did (e.g. loving others, caring for the sick, etc.).

 

[rick357]

Yes, I understand that and agree - our lives should reflect Jesus and His life, and we do so by following in His footsteps, and doing as He did (e.g. loving others, caring for the sick, etc.).

All the things you are saying we should do are correct and we should do them....it is the source of the streangth to do them that is at issue.
If I use my own streangth my source is Adam...but alas Adam is sold under sin...it is against his nature to be obediant....so trying to obey from that source is like trying to hold your breath....it works for a while but eventualy nature takes over and you breath
So Adam( that is you) must die in Christ so that his Spirit may live in you...it is his nature to be obediant so when he lives through you you do what is right...this is entering his rest where you stop your labour and do the woeks of God.
When Christ lives through you on the earth doing the work....you are seated in him in heavenly places at rest till your enemy is your footstool.....hidden in him to be revealed at that day

 

[ananda]

All the things you are saying we should do are correct and we should do them....it is the source of the streangth to do them that is at issue.
If I use my own streangth my source is Adam...but alas Adam is sold under sin...it is against his nature to be obediant....so trying to obey from that source is like trying to hold your breath....it works for a while but eventualy nature takes over and you breath
So Adam( that is you) must die in Christ so that his Spirit may live in you...it is his nature to be obediant so when he lives through you you do what is right...this is entering his rest where you stop your labour and do the woeks of God.
When Christ lives through you on the earth doing the work....you are seated in him in heavenly places at rest till your enemy is your footstool.....hidden in him to be revealed at that day

As long as we're in agreement that our faithfulness is an essential part of salvation, then that's cool with me

I don't see how debating, as Paul likes, "where" the source of our faithfulness comes from, or "who" in actuality is doing it, is of any practical purpose.

 

[rick357]

As long as we're in agreement that our faithfulness is an essential part of salvation, then that's cool with me

I don't see how debating, as Paul likes, "where" the source of our faithfulness comes from, or "who" in actuality is doing it, is of any practical purpose.

It is important because there are only two men..and your life is in one of the two....Adam or Jesus...if we use Adams life he will eventualy show himaelf and be unfaithful.

 

[ananda]

It is important because there are only two men..and your life is in one of the two....Adam or Jesus...if we use Adams life he will eventualy show himaelf and be unfaithful.

How does that debate influence one's faithfulness, in real life?

 

[rick357]

How does that debate influence one's faithfulness, in real life?

From my perspective trusting the spirit to livr through me is real life

 

[ananda]

From my perspective trusting the spirit to livr through me is real life

How does "trusting the spirit" affect your faithfulness/obedience?

 

[rick357]

How does "trusting the spirit" affect your faithfulness/obedience?

Those things wich once were areas where I struggled to do certain things or not do others are no longer a struggle...and my life has become not about what I must do but what he is doing.

 

[ananda]

Those things wich once were areas where I struggled to do certain things or not do others are no longer a struggle...and my life has become not about what I must do but what he is doing.

I don't see it as "what I must do but what he is doing" ... I see it as "what I should do to walk as one with Him".