Reincarnation

[ViaCrucis]

John 9 1-2
9 As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth. 2 And his disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”

I always wondered how this man could have sinned before he was born?

He couldn't have. The disciples saw this man and wanted to attribute his blindness to sin, as a curse from God either on the man himself or on account of the man's parents. The flaw here is in their thinking, that a man born blind is accursed, and his suffering must either have been from his parents (a punishment to the parents) or for some other reason, e.g. some unknown sin of this man.

Jesus will accept neither as possible, in fact Jesus rebukes the whole notion that such things are a curse by asserting that this man's blindness was so the glory of the Son of God might be revealed, and Jesus heals the blindness. The disciples did not even consider that his blindness was a cause of suffering for the man, they did not even consider the man as a victim in need of healing--they instead sought to justify this suffering by attributing blame somewhere and treating this as a curse and punishment. Here not only does Jesus deliver healing, but teaches an important lesson for His disciples (and for us); not to look to blame victims for their suffering, but to see those who suffer and to come to them in love and serving them in God's name.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[SnowyMacie]

Can someone believe in reincarnation and be a Christian?

I've always been very intrigued by the concept of reincarnation, but I've never been able to even find it remotely supported by scripture.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I've always been very intrigued by the concept of reincarnation, but I've never been able to even find it remotely supported by scripture.

It's also theologically problematic because it creates a duality between the body and something else (spirit, soul, mind, etc); with the consequence that the "real" person is some sort of invisible quality that simply happens to be residing with or in a body, and that the body is transient and there can be a succession of bodies--all ultimately transient and disposable as the "real" is the invisible quality. Where, on the contrary, Christian teaching is that human beings are full, material, whole creatures, the body isn't transient and it isn't a shell housing the interior me; I am a fully integrated creature with flesh, bone, mind, thought, awareness, emotion, will, etc--these are all intrinsically me; and it is this which is restored to life and glorified on the Last Day, hence resurrection of the body. The entirety of what makes me me has purpose and is saved and being saved in Christ and will exist in the World to Come when God makes all things new.

It's incredibly difficult, and I would argue basically impossible, to reconcile reincarnation with basic Christian hope and teaching; because on some level reincarnation results in a division of the human being, and a rejection of the body--and that of course gets us to the very problem St. Paul wants to correct in the 15th chapter of 1 Corinthians, those who say the dead are not raised ultimately are saying that Christ is not risen, and if Christ is not risen then our faith is meaningless and empty.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[jaybird88]

I've always been very intrigued by the concept of reincarnation, but I've never been able to even find it remotely supported by scripture.

its pretty much absent from scripture other than a few passages like the one i mentioned above.
every Jewish sect in the days of Jesus and the 12, with exception to sadducees, believed in pre existence. it was never taught against until the roman version of Christianity.

 

[Erasmus7]

Hebrews says '"die once" ,not live once . There are many references in the bible to previous existence . Until 553 the Church believed in it too , a Pope was banished for opposing the denial of reincarnation .

I'm afraid the early church most certainly did not believe in reincarnation, In fact, many of the major fathers spoke specifically against it. I cover this in chapters 7 and 8 of my book 'Reincarnation in Perspective'. See https://www.amazon.com/Reincarnatio...&sr=8-1&keywords=reincarnation+in+perspective

 

[Erasmus7]

John 9 1-2
9 As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth. 2 And his disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”

I always wondered how this man could have sinned before he was born?

I cover the blind man of John 9 comprehensively in chapter 5 of my book; but my analysis of this text also appears in one of my videos,

Short answer: the rabbis had a belief that a man could sin in his womb, i.e., before birth, but having nothing to do with a past life. This is well backed up by scholars and ancient writings.

 

[jaybird88]

I cover the blind man of John 9 comprehensively in chapter 5 of my book; but my analysis of this text also appears in one of my videos,
Short answer: the rabbis had a belief that a man could sin in his womb, i.e., before birth, but having nothing to do with a past life. This is well backed up by scholars and ancient writings.

the blind man committing a sin before birth was clearly an option to Jesus and the 12 or they would not have entertained such a foolish idea to begin with.
what rabbis? the Sadducees would be the only Jewish sect, at the time of Jesus and the 12, that did not believe in pre existence, in fact they didnt seem to believe in anything but the physical world anyway. all others believed they existed before this life. the Essenes of Qumran wrote on it. Thomas and wisdom of Solomon mentions it as well.
the church didnt start teaching against it until after rome takes over, hundreds of years after Jesus and the 12.

 

[-V-]

the blind man committing a sin before birth was clearly an option to Jesus and the 12 or they would not have entertained such a foolish idea to begin with.

How can you say it was an option for Jesus, when the first words out of His mouth were to say that idea was wrong?

Don't confuse what some Jews may have believed with what the Bible teaches. The Bible doesn't reveal everything about everything. And what was revealed was not revealed all at once, it was revealed over centuries of time. There's plenty of room for ancient Jews to come up with their own ideas that God never told them. Several times, Jesus points out the incorrect views of the Pharisees, for example.

all others believed they existed before this life. the Essenes of Qumran wrote on it.

Not Scripture.

Thomas and wisdom of Solomon mentions it as well.

Not Scripture.

the church didnt start teaching against it until after rome takes over, hundreds of years after Jesus and the 12.

False. As already pointed out, the Bible itself makes clear statements against it. Hebrews 9:27.

 

[jaybird88]

How can you say it was an option for Jesus, when the first words out of His mouth were to say that idea was wrong?

option one - he sinned before birth
option two - his parents sinned
Jesus didnt say it was a false belief he said there was another option.

Not Scripture.

then where did the idea come from, you think they pulled it out of thin air? makes little difference as it proves the vast majority at the time of Jesus and the 12 believed it.

Not Scripture.

those actually were and still are scripture to many. some did not like what they taught so they tossed them. its simple cherry picking.

False. As already pointed out, the Bible itself makes clear statements against it. Hebrews 9:27.

so what about Lazarus, the man Elijah brings back to life, the man Elisha brings back, are they walking around today? they would have to be being as they already died once.
didnt paul teach on a 2nd death, but the Hebrews passage says we die once??
was the Hebrews passage a teaching on reincarnation, i dont think so, its talking about Jesus dying on the cross and He only has to do this one time.
the truth of it is reincarnation goes against mans theology, not the bible.

 

[-V-]

option one - he sinned before birth
option two - his parents sinned
Jesus didnt say it was a false belief he said there was another option.

He didn't say, "there's another option," as if they could pick whatever they wanted from a list and decide for themselves what was true. He simply told them they were wrong and told them the truth.

Further, just because they said "before birth" doesn't require reincarnation. People are in their mother's womb for 9 months before being born. Psalm 51:5 has David claiming to be sinful from conception. They could have been thinking of that and though that it may have indeed been possible to sin in the womb.

then where did the idea come from, you think they pulled it out of thin air?

It came from somewhere other than their Scriptures.

makes little difference as it proves the vast majority at the time of Jesus and the 12 believed it.

No, it doesn't prove any such thing.

those actually were and still are scripture to many. some did not like what they taught so they tossed them. its simple cherry picking.

No, they just aren't Scripture. God doesn't contradict Himself. Those other writings contradict Scripture; therefore, they are not Scripture.

so what about Lazarus, the man Elijah brings back to life, the man Elisha brings back, are they walking around today? they would have to be being as they already died once.

Being a rare miracle doesn't change the general rule. Everyone being reincarnated would completely violate that rule.

didnt paul teach on a 2nd death, but the Hebrews passage says we die once??

That 2nd death is being damned to hell - spiritual death.

was the Hebrews passage a teaching on reincarnation, i dont think so, its talking about Jesus dying on the cross and He only has to do this one time.

There is nothing there indicating that it's talking about Christ's death. That's a stretch beyond stretching.

the truth of it is reincarnation goes against mans theology, not the bible.

Yes, it goes against the Bible.

 

[jaybird88]

He didn't say, "there's another option," as if they could pick whatever they wanted from a list and decide for themselves what was true. He simply told them they were wrong and told them the truth.

Jesus never said the concept was in error he just said those were not the reason. if the concept was in fact false then the other would also be false which would contradict scripture.

Further, just because they said "before birth" doesn't require reincarnation. People are in their mother's womb for 9 months before being born. Psalm 51:5 has David claiming to be sinful from conception. They could have been thinking of that and though that it may have indeed been possible to sin in the womb.

show me a bible passage that explains a fetus before birth committing a sin.
Psalm 51:5 is referring to david killing a man over his lust for a woman.

It came from somewhere other than their Scriptures.

there are many books quoted in scripture that we dont have today.

No, it doesn't prove any such thing.

of the Jewish sects in the days of Jesus and the 12, Essenes, Nazarenes, pharisees, zealots, sadducees, all but one believed in pre existance and this means no one believed in pre existence?

No, they just aren't Scripture. God doesn't contradict Himself. Those other writings contradict Scripture; therefore, they are not Scripture.

they dont.

Being a rare miracle doesn't change the general rule. Everyone being reincarnated would completely violate that rule.


That 2nd death is being damned to hell - spiritual death.

so now people can die more than once?

There is nothing there indicating that it's talking about Christ's death. That's a stretch beyond stretching.

28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

are you sure?

Yes, it goes against the Bible.

Mark 9:13
"But I tell you, Elijah has come, and they have done to him everything they wished, just as it is written about him."
Job 1:21
Naked I came from my mother’s womb, and naked I shall return there.

doesn't sound like it

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Too much arguing in circles starting with or just accepting false premises like this :

every Jewish sect in the days of Jesus and the 12, with exception to sadducees, believed in pre existence.

of the Jewish sects in the days of Jesus and the 12, Essenes, Nazarenes, pharisees, zealots, sadducees, all but one believed in pre existance and this means no one believed in pre existence?

No. No pre existence.... Even if 33,000 false religions , 5 billion people , claim or believe it was true, doesn't ever make it true.

Claiming any Jews thought it was true, ever, doesn't make it true.

Not even if they in error ever believed it.

 

[-V-]

if the concept was in fact false then the other would also be false which would contradict scripture.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

show me a bible passage that explains a fetus before birth committing a sin.

I never said that is what the Bible says. I said that the disciples might have thought it was possible because of what Psalm 51:5 says.

Psalm 51:5 is referring to david killing a man over his lust for a woman.

Being "sinful from conception" refers to killing Uriah? So, before David was born, he killed Uriah? I didn't realize that.

there are many books quoted in scripture that we dont have today.

Yeah, you're just taking a shot in the dark with that one. You're going have to do better than that.

of the Jewish sects in the days of Jesus and the 12, Essenes, Nazarenes, pharisees, zealots, sadducees, all but one believed in pre existance and this means no one believed in pre existence?

I never said "no one believed it". But four groups believing it is a far cry from "the vast majority" believing it. Particularly since the vast majority of the population didn't belong to any of those groups.

so now people can die more than once?

You're confusing a general rule for a universal one.

28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

are you sure?

Yes I am. I like how you left the word "ALSO" out of the verse, it right after "Christ"

The whole passage reads:
"And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 28 so Christ also, having been offered once..."

Notice it says "appointed for MEN" (plural) to die once. If it's just about Jesus, did Jesus suddenly become a group of people? Notice it also says, "Christ was ALSO" offered once. If the first part is about Jesus, why would the second part say, "oh, yeah, this happened to Christ, too"? According to you, the passage is saying, "it was appointed to Jesus to die once, and Jesus also died once." What kind of sense does that make??

Mark 9:13
"But I tell you, Elijah has come, and they have done to him everything they wished, just as it is written about him."

First, read that section again, try a couple different commentaries as well if you can find some. There's no reincarnation there. Second, Elijah never died, plus he's still Elijah - so if this was even talking about a return as you think, it's not even reincarnation.

Job 1:21
Naked I came from my mother’s womb, and naked I shall return there.

You're looking at poetry, it's figurative. Job is talking about his body returning to the earth. The creation account has Adam made out of the ground. And the ancient Hebrews saw the earth figuratively as the mother of everyone. The apocryphal writing Ecclesiasticus specifically mentions it in chapter 40, verse 1 - "Great labour is created for all men, and a heavy yoke is upon the children of Adam, from the day of their coming out of their mother's womb, until the day of their burial into the mother of all."

 

[jaybird88]

Too much arguing in circles starting with or just accepting false premises like this :




No. No pre existence.... Even if 33,000 false religions , 5 billion people , claim or believe it was true, doesn't ever make it true.

Claiming any Jews thought it was true, ever, doesn't make it true.

Not even if they in error ever believed it.

i agree, the group no matter how big does not make it true. my point was Jewish sects believed it to be true so why did they think this.
same as mainstream Christians teaching against it it when its not in scripture.
i do believe however that they knew more on these things in those times than we do today.

 

[jaybird88]

Being "sinful from conception" refers to killing Uriah? So, before David was born, he killed Uriah? I didn't realize that.

the Psalm IMO is symbolic of that

Yeah, you're just taking a shot in the dark with that one. You're going have to do better than that.

you claimed the idea came from outside scripture. what was in these scriptures quoted in the bible we no longer have?

Yes I am. I like how you left the word "ALSO" out of the verse, it right after "Christ"
The whole passage reads:
"And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 28 so Christ also, having been offered once..."

Notice it says "appointed for MEN" (plural) to die once. If it's just about Jesus, did Jesus suddenly become a group of people? Notice it also says, "Christ was ALSO" offered once. If the first part is about Jesus, why would the second part say, "oh, yeah, this happened to Christ, too"? According to you, the passage is saying, "it was appointed to Jesus to die once, and Jesus also died once." What kind of sense does that make??

all i said was the passage is about Jesus death on the cross, you said it had nothing to do with that rather its a teaching on how Christians should not follow reincarnation, i dont think its a reincarnation teaching.

First, read that section again, try a couple different commentaries as well if you can find some. There's no reincarnation there. Second, Elijah never died, plus he's still Elijah - so if this was even talking about a return as you think, it's not even reincarnation.

You're looking at poetry, it's figurative. Job is talking about his body returning to the earth. The creation account has Adam made out of the ground. And the ancient Hebrews saw the earth figuratively as the mother of everyone. The apocryphal writing Ecclesiasticus specifically mentions it in chapter 40, verse 1 - "Great labour is created for all men, and a heavy yoke is upon the children of Adam, from the day of their coming out of their mother's womb, until the day of their burial into the mother of all."

from what Jesus teaches the spirit of Elijah came back and was in John.
i agree the Job passage is poetic / symbolic. what does it symbolize? returning to a womb? whats a womb symbolize?
these passages IMO are suggestive but dont teach reincarnation no more than the Hebrews passage teaches against it. i think its very strange its not taught either way.
the church has taught against it for a thousand years, where did they get this knowledge, not from the scriptures i have seen.

 

[-V-]

the Psalm IMO is symbolic of that

With no real support of that opinion.

you claimed the idea came from outside scripture. what was in these scriptures quoted in the bible we no longer have?

Just because the Bible quotes something doesn't make it "Scripture". Paul quotes two pagan philosophers, but they aren't "Scripture".

all i said was the passage is about Jesus death on the cross, you said it had nothing to do with that rather its a teaching on how Christians should not follow reincarnation, i dont think its a reincarnation teaching.

Wrong. What you said was that the part, "it is appointed unto man once to die," was about Jesus. There is nothing in the passage pointing to that portion being about Jesus. The NEXT part is about Jesus. The grammar used clearly does not allow the first portion to refer to Jesus' crucifixion.

from what Jesus teaches the spirit of Elijah came back and was in John.

In Mark 9? There's nothing there saying that at all.

i agree the Job passage is poetic / symbolic. what does it symbolize? returning to a womb? whats a womb symbolize?
these passages IMO are suggestive but dont teach reincarnation no more than the Hebrews passage teaches against it. i think its very strange its not taught either way.
the church has taught against it for a thousand years, where did they get this knowledge, not from the scriptures i have seen.

Now you're contradicting yourself, and coming across as rather dishonest. I said the Bible taught against reincarnation, to which you replied, "doesn't sound like it," and cited the Job passage. NOW you claim the Job passage does NOT teach reincarnation. You can't have it both ways.

Not from the Scriptures?? Come on now! Hebrews 9 - MEN DIE ONCE. How much more clear can it be? If reincarnation is true, if everybody just comes back over and over, men are not dying once now, are they.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

i agree, the group no matter how big does not make it true. my point was Jewish sects believed it to be true so why did they think this.
same as mainstream Christians teaching against it it when its not in scripture.
i do believe however that they knew more on these things in those times than we do today.

Sorry, your "point" is in error.
You posted for support statements that don't support any point.
Statements that most likely are not true, but even if they were true, (that some groups believed the lie) , that never makes the lie true.

Trying to support in any way , what you seem to be trying to support, is sin.

 

[jaybird88]

With no real support of that opinion.

the psalm has nothing to do with David, Bathsheba, Nathan, and the child being struck with a sickness and dying?

Just because the Bible quotes something doesn't make it "Scripture". Paul quotes two pagan philosophers, but they aren't "Scripture".

Paul was quoting greek philosophers as greek philosophers and not Jewish scripture,

Wrong. What you said was that the part, "it is appointed unto man once to die," was about Jesus. There is nothing in the passage pointing to that portion being about Jesus. The NEXT part is about Jesus. The grammar used clearly does not allow the first portion to refer to Jesus' crucifixion.

i said the passage not the one verse.

In Mark 9? There's nothing there saying that at all.

i was referring to all the passages referring to John, Elijah's spirit and preparing the way.

Now you're contradicting yourself, and coming across as rather dishonest. I said the Bible taught against reincarnation, to which you replied, "doesn't sound like it," and cited the Job passage. NOW you claim the Job passage does NOT teach reincarnation. You can't have it both ways.

there is a difference between a teaching that is clearly explained, and a passage that suggest a teaching but doesnt explain it. that was my point

Not from the Scriptures?? Come on now! Hebrews 9 - MEN DIE ONCE. How much more clear can it be? If reincarnation is true, if everybody just comes back over and over, men are not dying once now, are they.

men die once yet we have men in scripture that died more than once and we also have death number two.

 

[jaybird88]

Sorry, your "point" is in error.
You posted for support statements that don't support any point.

they support that many of the Jewish sects in the days of Jesus and the 12 believed in it.

Statements that most likely are not true, but even if they were true, (that some groups believed the lie) , that never makes the lie true.

not tru based on what? man made doctrines?

Trying to support in any way , what you seem to be trying to support, is sin.

and now its a sin? please show me this command in scripture?

 

[-V-]

the psalm has nothing to do with David, Bathsheba, Nathan, and the child being struck with a sickness and dying?

Are you actually being serious?? David's motivation for writing that Psalm doesn't mean that every passage in it is a reference to David killing Uriah to get Bathsheba. David did NOT do those things while he was in the womb. The only conclusion I can come to when reading statements like that is that either you're unable to be reasonable or you're unwilling to be reasonable. Either way, I don't think I can help you any further.