Reincarnation

ViaCrucis

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If spirit isn't vibration then what is it?

Presumably, spirit.

The problem is that concepts such as "soul" and "spirit" are not explicitly defined in Scripture and tend to have a rather nebulous sense. The basic sense behind both is "breath" (in both Hebrew and Greek) and tends to involve, largely, the fact that for ancient people there seemed to be a rather specific distinction between a living thing and a corpse--namely breath. Living things breathed, dead things didn't.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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dcalling

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There is no body we have "in heaven", the resurrection of the body is when Christ returns, and creation restored (c.f. Romans 8, Isaiah 65, Revelation 21 & 22, 1 Corinthians 15)

It is too broad, would you mind to pin point the passage?

Pay attention, in what way are the resurrected like the angels? "they neither marry nor are given in marriage" that is only similarity here.

-CryptoLutheran
Christ only give 1 example, there can be many more.
 
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dcalling

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Presumably, spirit.

The problem is that concepts such as "soul" and "spirit" are not explicitly defined in Scripture and tend to have a rather nebulous sense. The basic sense behind both is "breath" (in both Hebrew and Greek) and tends to involve, largely, the fact that for ancient people there seemed to be a rather specific distinction between a living thing and a corpse--namely breath. Living things breathed, dead things didn't.

-CryptoLutheran
God don't need air. Breath of God is God's spirit (or something similar). It is definitely not air.
 
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JCFantasy23

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Fascinating discussion. It's not something I used to think about much, but it's been on my mind over the years because I have a close friend who is close to God, we speak of Him every time we get together, she attends church weekly as a Catholic, very spiritual, but she does also believe in reincarnation. I have reflected on it and it's not something I can believe in - I don't see anything about in that lines with the bible and what I know and understand to be the afterlife. Doesn't sit right with me. I respect her and still consider her a Christian, definitely, but it's not something we agree on. I'm always curious to get others input on it.
 
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Hawkins

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Reincarnation is not a new concept. Even Josephus, who was a Jewish Pharisee, believed in reincarnation. Possibly because God said in OT that He will resend Elijah to the Jews. Some Jews may thus believe that Elijah may re-appear as a result of reincarnation. It is however a wrong and misleading concept, because reincarnation is an extended concept referring to the rebirth of common folks (basically all humans) instead of a specific prophet mentioned in OT.

Malachi 4:5 (NIV)
See, I will send you the prophet Elijah before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes.
 
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tealight

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I mean body in the sense of this solid flesh frame--skin, tissue, muscle, bones, etc.

In Christianity the body matters, a non-bodied person isn't a whole person; and the Christian religion depends on the doctrine of the resurrection of the body--that the body rises and is transformed in the same way Christ was raised and transformed; from mortality to immortality, from perishable to imperishable.
I agree that the body matters. Without a body, the soul wouldn't be able to learn etc. I know you mean 'body' differently though. You mean it as something more permanent - you are saying 'the' body, I am moreso saying 'a' body. So, this is the bit I'll have to think more and read more on.

You know where the disciples didn't recognise Jesus after he appeared? What would your comment be on this? It seems to me it means that the body was changed.

Early Christians didn't believe in a matter-spirit duality, that was the product of Gnosticism and later Manicheanism; and with it a host of other ideas in which materiality was intrinsically bad and was something to be cast off and rejected. For most forms of Gnosticism the chief goal was a return to the realm of pure spirit through spiritual enlightenment, knowledge, gnosis.
I'm not familiar enough with Gnosticism to really comment here. What you're saying is thought-provoking and I will read more on the subject.

However the historic Christian position has been that God is the author of all things, we confess for example, "We believe in one God the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things seen and unseen." That is we go back to Genesis where after creation God declares of all things He has made, "It is exceedingly good".
I agree with this basically, that God is a benevolent god.

The Incarnation means God has united Himself with our humanity, God became man. Jesus Christ, the Lord, is both God and human; and we see through His life and teachings that things here matter--how we treat people matters to God, creation matters, people matter, the conditions and affairs in which people find themselves are things which matter to God.
You seem to be saying that people who believe in reincarnation must also believe that how we treat people etc doesn't matter... I would have to disagree. I think that anyone who would take it in any way seriously would have an awareness of the cause-effect of their actions, behaviour etc.

The dirt under our feet matters to God, and God purposes it for eternity, because it is--intrinsically--good and God will not see it pass away to nothing.
This is an interesting quote, something to think about. Thanks for your post.
 
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fat wee robin

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I've underlined the beliefs I tend to agree with (I would use different words though).



Also from the article, some points refuting reincarnation...
I don't think I agree on these, or I don't get where he's coming from.

Thanks for the link though. It gives a kind of overview. Some things mentioned I will look into further.
There is huge amounts of ignorance around this subject ,but it is clear that it was a common belief among certain Jews .They did not as far as I remember believe the same as Hindus but that the person would be born again many times before they would reach
a perfect enough state to be with God .Something like that ,however the idea that we have only one chance ever to get it right is wrong .The only place this comes up is in hebrews ,and we don't know who wrote it .
If it was common among Jews and it would have been among the apostles .Jesus came to save us from endless lifetimes ,instead all we needed then, was one life in Him to enter the Kingdom ,but we have been here before 'evolving' .
 
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tealight

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Fascinating discussion. It's not something I used to think about much, but it's been on my mind over the years because I have a close friend who is close to God, we speak of Him every time we get together, she attends church weekly as a Catholic, very spiritual, but she does also believe in reincarnation. I have reflected on it and it's not something I can believe in - I don't see anything about in that lines with the bible and what I know and understand to be the afterlife. Doesn't sit right with me. I respect her and still consider her a Christian, definitely, but it's not something we agree on. I'm always curious to get others input on it.
It could be it's more of a Catholic thing. It was mentioned earlier that there's a branch of Catholicism that agrees with it (which I've not looked into as yet).

There are lots of sections of the bible that I'm not familiar with or need to read again. I'll keep an open mind on it then, for a while. It will be a while I think before I'll know the bible well enough.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I agree that the body matters. Without a body, the soul wouldn't be able to learn etc. I know you mean 'body' differently though. You mean it as something more permanent - you are saying 'the' body, I am moreso saying 'a' body. So, this is the bit I'll have to think more and read more on.

You know where the disciples didn't recognise Jesus after he appeared? What would your comment be on this? It seems to me it means that the body was changed.

There are several explanations for not recognizing Jesus, and they aren't mutually exclusive. For one let's consider the fact that all Jesus' disciples had just experienced a tremendous shock and let down--their Rabbi, and the One they hoped to be the promised Messiah, just died a tragic and terrifying death by crucifixion at the hands of the Romans; they are defeated, emotionally and mentally. Further, resurrection is more than just resuscitation, Jesus has been glorified in the body, His body has been transformed, glorified, and it is indeed possible that for reasons unexplained in the text this was a contributing factor.

I'm not familiar enough with Gnosticism to really comment here. What you're saying is thought-provoking and I will read more on the subject.

I agree with this basically, that God is a benevolent god.

You seem to be saying that people who believe in reincarnation must also believe that how we treat people etc doesn't matter... I would have to disagree. I think that anyone who would take it in any way seriously would have an awareness of the cause-effect of their actions, behaviour etc.

I'm not saying people who believe in reincarnation don't believe in treating people well; but what I'm saying is that Christianity centers itself around the belief of a God who made all things and who considers what He made good and to be taken care of and that it really does matter. So for Christians the resurrection of Jesus isn't simply a nice story, it's the Gospel--the good news--that God is saving, renewing, and restoring the entirety of creation.

-CryptoLutheran

This is an interesting quote, something to think about. Thanks for your post.
 
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ViaCrucis

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It could be it's more of a Catholic thing. It was mentioned earlier that there's a branch of Catholicism that agrees with it (which I've not looked into as yet).

There are lots of sections of the bible that I'm not familiar with or need to read again. I'll keep an open mind on it then, for a while. It will be a while I think before I'll know the bible well enough.

For the sake of clarification: the Roman Catholic Church doesn't accept reincarnation. What was mentioned earlier wasn't a branch of Catholicism but a break-away group.

In the 1800s there was a schism that occurred when a number of Catholics considered it heretical to say that the Pope was infallible when speaking ex cathedra; and this led to the formation of what are known as the Old Catholic Churches, most of whom were from the Netherlands. They are also known as the Ultrajectine Churches.

What was mentioned, if I recall correctly, was the Liberal Catholic Church (the LCC), here is how Wikipedia describes its founding:

"The founding bishops of the Liberal Catholic churches were J. I. Wedgwood of the Wedgwood China family and the Theosophist Charles Webster Leadbeater. Wedgwood was a former Anglican priest who left the Anglican church on becoming a theosophist in 1904. After serving in several high offices in the Theosophical Society, including being general secretary of the society in England and Wales from 1911 to 1913, he was ordained as a priest in the Old Catholic movement on July 22, 1913, by Arnold Harris Mathew. Matthew in turn was a former Roman Catholic priest who had left to be ordained as a bishop in the Old Catholic Church, which had separated from papal authority in 1873 over the issue of papal infallibility. The Old Catholics maintained that their ordinations were valid within the Catholic tradition, and the Liberal Catholic Church thus claims to trace its apostolic succession back to Rome through Old Catholicism.

In 1915 Wedgwood visited Australia in his capacity as Grand Secretary of the Order of Universal CoMasonry (a Co-Freemasonry organisation based loosely on Freemasonry, but consisting of mixed-sex lodges), another of the organisations in which he was prominent. On his return to England he learned that Frederick Samuel Willoughby, a bishop of the Old Catholic Church of Britain, had become enmeshed in a homosexuality scandal and as a result had been suspended by Archbishop Mathew. He also learned that Mathew wanted all the clergy of the church to renounce Theosophy on the grounds that the beliefs of the Church and the Society were incompatible. Shortly afterwards Archbishop Mathew dissolved the Old Catholic Church in Great Britain and published a letter in The Times announcing his intention to return to the Roman Catholic Church.

Few bothered to reply to Mathew. Bishop Willoughby offered to consecrate Wedgwood to the episcopate, but Wedgwood approached a number of other bishops seeking consecration, including the Old Catholic Archbishop of Utrecht Gerardus Gul (by whom Mathew had originally been consecrated), Bishop Frederick James, a fellow Theosophist. Eventually, Wedgwood was consecrated as a bishop by Bishop Willoughby on 13 February 1916 with Bishop King and Bishop Gauntlett assisting.

With the Old Catholics continuing to disapprove of Mathews' creation in Britain, Wedgwood started the organisation that would later become the Liberal Catholic Church, of which he became the first Presiding Bishop. At the same time he maintained his close connections with the Theosophical movement, and many of Wedgwood's priests and bishops were simultaneously Theosophists.
"

So not only is the LCC not a branch of Catholicism, it's a break-away group from a break-away group that had as part of its foundation, in part, Theosophy.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Job8

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Soul means body and spirit. Body alone isn't soul and spirit alone isn't soul.
Soul cannot mean body and spirit. The body is that which is physical and turns into dust after death. The soul is immaterial and continues to exist either in Hades (without Christ) or in Heaven (with Christ). The spirit is within the soul yet distinct from it, and is the spiritual part of the individual. As to "vibrations" it is true that neither matter vibrations nor energy vibrations are destroyed, and ultimately everything consists of electrons which vibrate. But that has no bearing on reincarnation.
 
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Erasmus7

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Hi,

I respect that, with Eastern religious ideas becoming more and more prominent in the West, questions may be arising in the minds of believers as to the possible validity of some of these beliefs.

However, one thing we learn very quickly in the study of biblical theology is that biblical doctrine is many times diametrically opposed to non-Christian religious ideas. Jesus and the prophets announced a Way that was vastly different from the pagan ways of their day.

After all, if Jesus is the only way to God and the only Light of Salvation forthe world, as He said in John 14:6 and the disciples said in Acts 4:12, then we must not be surprised if what the Word of God from heaven says is different from what non-Christian religions say regarding how to get to heaven.

In a nutshell, reincarnation is extremely different from the Bible way of salvation, which is through faith and by grace, in Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9), as opposed to reincarnation, which teaches working one's way to heaven through multiple works in multiple lifetimes. This is the exact opposite of grace.

Furthermore, the great Christian goal is Resurrection from the dead. These, our selfsame bodies we have now, will on the Last Day be raised as glorious new bodies. In other words, our goal is not to inhabit many bodies over thousands of years. It is the resurrection of this very body that we hope for.

This why John 5:28-29 tells us: ‘Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.’ - i.e., the souls of 'those in their graves' were not going through endless bodies over many years: they were waiting to be resurrected in the same body they had had on earth.

I actually give a detailed exegesis of many such passages in my recent book, 'Reincarnation in Perspective' (by Gregory Rogers, see amazon.com), which is basically a detailed defence of the biblical position, explaining clearly why reincarnation is the opposite of the biblical idea of resurrection, and refuting many of the key texts reincarnationists use in an attempt to prove reincarnation. It goes through the biblical record, church history, as well as supposed reincarnation 'case studies'.

In a nutshell, then, reincarnation is an eastern idea, not a Hebrew one. There is no indication of it at all in Scripture.

Hope this helps.
Regards,
Erasmus7
 
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Sketcher

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This is how I've tended to think of it as well; reincarnation as a kind of purgatory.
There's no support for that in Scripture at all, though. Christianity teaches that we have one life to live on this Earth, then we die, then we rise to go to either Heaven or Hell. Reincarnation simply never enters into the picture.
 
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Archie the Preacher

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tealight said:
Can someone believe in reincarnation and be a Christian?
Depends on what exactly you mean.

One can believe in reincarnation and accept Jesus as Savior - become a Christian.

I honestly don't believe one can be a Christian and grow as a Christian and not divest one's self of the idea at some point. The divestiture will happen because you have given up the idea of your own free will and thinking; not because some authority figure orders you to do so.

The biggest question is are you interested in a permanent and personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ. Until that relationship is formed, everything else is marginal. (Most things are marginal afterward as well, but in a different sense.)
 
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fat wee robin

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I definately think that someone can be a Christain and still believe in reincarnation. It is very uncommon though because the Word says that man will only die once.
Hebrews says '"die once" ,not live once . There are many references in the bible to previous existence . Until 553 the Church believed in it too , a Pope was banished for opposing the denial of reincarnation .
 
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fat wee robin

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Depends on what exactly you mean.

One can believe in reincarnation and accept Jesus as Savior - become a Christian.

I honestly don't believe one can be a Christian and grow as a Christian and not divest one's self of the idea at some point. The divestiture will happen because you have given up the idea of your own free will and thinking; not because some authority figure orders you to do so.

The biggest question is are you interested in a permanent and personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ. Until that relationship is formed, everything else is marginal. (Most things are marginal afterward as well, but in a different sense.)
This is correct, that reincarnation is a means by which God 'evolved ' souls, until Jesus came ,then He took on all the past 'sin' ,or 'karma', until a person could have the opportunity to know and Love Jesus ,THEN there is ONE DEATH only after that .

The person will be then be judged on how they have recieved ,or not, this GIFT of salvation . Then, if they have not repented and accepted and followed Jesus to the best of their ablilty , they will be held responsible for their WHOLE past sins , at the Final Judgement which comes at the end of a specific period, in God's planned design .
The devil causes confusion by making it look like God is irrational and unjust , by giving all only one chance ,when so many have so different origins -some are born sick ,poor etc ., while others live luxuious lives .
 
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Sketcher

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Hebrews says '"die once" ,not live once . There are many references in the bible to previous existence . Until 553 the Church believed in it too , a Pope was banished for opposing the denial of reincarnation .
Where's your evidence?
 
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