Regeneration before or after saving faith

[Al Touthentop]

Nothing in Romans 6 talks about being born again.

Oh but it most certainly does.

For if we have become united with in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of his resurrection; 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be done away, that so we should no longer be in bondage to sin; 7 for he that hath died is justified from sin.

Dying in the likeness of his crucifixion and being raised to life in likeness of his resurrection is the very definition of being born again.

Even so reckon ye also yourselves to be dead unto sin, but alive unto God in Christ Jesus.

 

[Hammster]

Oh but it most certainly does.

For if we have become united with in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of his resurrection; 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be done away, that so we should no longer be in bondage to sin; 7 for he that hath died is justified from sin.

Dying in the likeness of his crucifixion and being raised to life in likeness of his resurrection is the very definition of being born again.

Even so reckon ye also yourselves to be dead unto sin, but alive unto God in Christ Jesus.

And in that, there’s nothing that we are told we must do. It’s already done.

 

[Al Touthentop]

And in that, there’s nothing that we are told we must do. It’s already done.

It doesn't say anything like that.

 

[Hammster]

It doesn't say anything like that.

Then what is the exact command?

 

[JIMINZ]

That’s not a command. It’s indicative.

Owing to the fact it's directly Translated from the Greek, is that an English or Greek Indicative?

 

[JIMINZ]

Regeneration is being born again. Jesus let us know how that is done. It isn't a feeling and it isn't done to us. We are commanded to do it. It's up to the believer to figure out how it works but I would suggest a careful reading of Romans 6.

My post #59

 

[Hammster]

Owing to the fact it's directly Translated from the Greek, is that an English or Greek Indicative?

It’s indicative in that it is comparing what’s done spiritually with what was done physically. Jesus didn’t just use spiritually sounding phrases. We have nothing to do with our physical birth. We, in the same manner, have nothing to do with our spiritual birth.

 

[Contenders Edge]

Why the hostility? You made a statement. I challenged your understanding. You failed to give the support you said was there.

According to your profile, you are a professing Christian.
And what troubled me is that your challenges made you out to have not ever read a Bible in your entire walk with Christ, or if you had, certainly not enough of it.

To someone who is not a believer and likely has not read the scriptures, I would not have thought that to be a stupid question and would have gladly shown them supporting scriptures. But it troubles me when a professing Christian asks questions to which they themselves should already know the answer.

But since you insist on supporting scripture, let us look at the conversion of Paul. Would you or would you not say that his life was transformed by his encounter and surrender to Christ?

 

[Hammster]

According to your profile, you are a professing Christian.
And what troubled me is that your challenges made you out to have not ever read a Bible in your entire walk with Christ, or if you had, certainly not enough of it.

To someone who is not a believer and likely has not read the scriptures, I would not have thought that to be a stupid question and would have gladly shown them supporting scriptures. But it troubles me when a professing Christian asks questions to which they themselves should already know the answer.

But since you insist on supporting scripture, let us look at the conversion of Paul. Would you or would you not say that his life was transformed by his encounter and surrender to Christ?

I asked you for verses that support your claim. If you aren’t going to supply any, that’s fine. But if you want to continue this discussion, please show the support that you claim you have. Otherwise it looks like a dodge.

 

[Contenders Edge]

I asked you for verses that support your claim. If you aren’t going to supply any, that’s fine. But if you want to continue this discussion, please show the support that you claim you have. Otherwise it looks like a dodge.

Did I not cite the conversion of Paul found in the book of Acts? It seems like you are the one who is dodging the matter now.

 

[JIMINZ]

It’s indicative in that it is comparing what’s done spiritually with what was done physically. Jesus didn’t just use spiritually sounding phrases. We have nothing to do with our physical birth. We, in the same manner, have nothing to do with our spiritual birth.

How and when then does our Spiritual Birth take place?... (Born Again).

According to your profile, you are a professing Christian.
And what troubled me is that your challenges made you out to have not ever read a Bible in your entire walk with Christ, or if you had, certainly not enough of it.

To someone who is not a believer and likely has not read the scriptures, I would not have thought that to be a stupid question and would have gladly shown them supporting scriptures. But it troubles me when a professing Christian asks questions to which they themselves should already know the answer.

But since you insist on supporting scripture, let us look at the conversion of Paul. Would you or would you not say that his life was transformed by his encounter and surrender to Christ?

I have asked for people to verify what they have said with Scripture.
It isn't a question asked for out of ignorance, but to make sure the person which makes a claim knows what they are espousing.

The things you say must be proven, tried before they become valid.
It would just be simpler if people would just post the appropriate verses with their statements made.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Most of the time that the word faith is used in the new testament it is not talking about personal belief but the system of faith that Christ established.

We're saved by "the faith" which does include our belief in its efficacy, but we're not saved by mere thoughts.

Sure. Thoughts are not faith. Before I was born again, I was compelled to attend church. I learned the apostle's creed. I learned the Lord's prayer. I believed it all but it was "so what?". Faith is an inner ability to substantiate things hoped for (Hebrews 11:1). It is spiritual eyesight. Hope is the thing that makes faith concrete. Faith is nothing without hope. Someone said it is the mould into which you pour faith. Faith and hope are the things that are eternal, along with love.

 

[Hammster]

Did I not cite the conversion of Paul found in the book of Acts? It seems like you are the one who is dodging the matter now.

Okay, we’ll go with that. Exactly where does it say that he believed and then was regenerated?

 

[Hammster]

How and when then does our Spiritual Birth take place?... (Born Again).

You want scripture. Here you go.


And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
— Ephesians 2:1-9

That’s a start.

 

[JIMINZ]

You want scripture. Here you go.


And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
— Ephesians 2:1-9

That’s a start.

It is a start your right, now the question was.

How and when does our Spiritual Birth take place.

Are you saying it all comes about in Eph. 2:1-10

There isn't any specific moment when the New Birth actually takes place?

 

[Hammster]

It is a start your right, now the question was.

How and when does our Spiritual Birth take place.

Are you saying it all comes about in Eph. 2:1-10

There isn't any specific moment when the New Birth actually takes place?

I’m saying that it happens at some point. Then faith. We are made righteous by faith, but made new by God’s will.

 

[JIMINZ]

I’m saying that it happens at some point. Then faith. We are made righteous by faith, but made new by God’s will.

At some point but your not sure when that point is that you are Born Again unto Newness of life?

Faith comes first by the Grace of God as per. Eph. 1:9 that we might Believe, then we become Born Again, not the other way around.

 

[Hammster]

At some point but your not sure when that point is that you are Born Again unto Newness of life?

Faith comes first by the Grace of God as per. Eph. 1:9 that we might Believe, then we become Born Again, not the other way around.

Faith comes after. The unregenerate heart has no reason or desire to believe. Read Ephesians 2 again. What comes first, regeneration or faith?

 

[Al Touthentop]

It’s indicative in that it is comparing what’s done spiritually with what was done physically. Jesus didn’t just use spiritually sounding phrases. We have nothing to do with our physical birth. We, in the same manner, have nothing to do with our spiritual birth.

"He that believes and is baptized shall be saved."

Seems like we have something to do with it. It was Christ's sacrifice that made it effective, but nothing happens if you don't obey.

 

[Hammster]

"He that believes and is baptized shall be saved."

Seems like we have something to do with it. It was Christ's sacrifice that made it effective, but nothing happens if you don't obey.

After birth comes life and breath. So yes, we do respond. But again, Jesus used the illustration of birth for a reason.