Regeneration before or after saving faith

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Wouldn’t it just be that thru belief in Christ and His work that a return to the image of God is re-established. Col 1:15, Heb 1:3 The idea of the image then highlights not the nature reflecting the prototype, but the act of the impartation of life, reverting to the original status of Gen 1:27

 

[Al Touthentop]

There is natural faith which everyone has. Then there is the faith of the Son of God that only believers possess.

Most of the time that the word faith is used in the new testament it is not talking about personal belief but the system of faith that Christ established.

We're saved by "the faith" which does include our belief in its efficacy, but we're not saved by mere thoughts.

 

[Al Touthentop]

It implies that if you are in Christ you are a new creation. Nothing in the text says how you get to that state.

Romans 6 explains exactly HOW one becomes "in Christ."

 

[Al Touthentop]

Where?

John 3:5
5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Acts 3
19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord,

 

[Hammster]

No, there are other passages throughout scripture that address that, but if we are new creatures in Christ, we certainly are not new creatures apart from Him. Therefore it clearly implies that faith in Christ brings about regeneration.

So then yes, you are reading into the verse (other passages). So where are these other passages?

 

[Hammster]

John 3:5
5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Acts 3
19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord,

Where’s the actual command to be born again?

 

[Hammster]

Romans 6 explains exactly HOW one becomes "in Christ."

Romans 6 explains how we are secure in Christ.

 

[Hammster]

Romans 6 explains exactly HOW one becomes "in Christ."

Where?

 

[JIMINZ]

Where are we commanded?

Here.

Joh. 3:7
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

 

[Hammster]

Here.

Joh. 3:7
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

That’s not a command. It’s indicative.

 

[Contenders Edge]

So then yes, you are reading into the verse (other passages). So where are these other passages?

I am reading nothing into the passage. I am simply abiding by its context which is consistent with the various other passages that tell us about how we become regenerated and that you are asking me to show you these other passages tells me you have not read and studied the scriptures as regularly as you should. Otherwise, you would not be asking me where these other passages are.

 

[Hammster]

I am reading nothing into the passage. I am simply abiding by its context which is consistent with the various other passages that tell us about how we become regenerated and that you are asking me to show you these other passages tells me you have not read and studied the scriptures as regularly as you should. Otherwise, you would not be asking me where these other passages are.

No, I’m trying to get you to see that the verse doesn’t make the argument you think it makes. No mention of faith at all, yet you say it’s implied from other verses.

So if you are correct, it should be easy to show.

 

[Al Touthentop]

That’s not a command. It’s indicative.

The word γεννηθη (you - singular - be born) is aorist passive. It means essentially to partake in being born again. "Become born again." It's a verb and the action is received but the responsibility is on the one he's speaking to - all persons who wish to see or enter the kingdom of God, must "become born."

Nowhere are we told that this process is magical or happens to us without our participation. Jesus was issuing a command. Were it not understood that way, then Nicodemus would have responded in a completely different way.

He understood it as a command as is made perfectly clear by his response.

Is a man able to enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born again?

Nicodemus understood that Jesus was telling him that it required action or obedience on our part.

After this conversation, what does it say Jesus and his apostles were doing?

 

[Contenders Edge]

No, I’m trying to get you to see that the verse doesn’t make the argument you think it makes. No mention of faith at all, yet you say it’s implied from other verses.

So if you are correct, it should be easy to show.

You can't be in Christ apart from faith in Him and therefore, if you have not placed your faith in Christ, you are not a new creature in Him. The passage makes no sense apart from faith and repentance. So, yes, it does make the argument you deny that it makes when compared to other passages dealing with salvation and the inward transformation associated with it which are found from Matthew to Revelation. They are not hard to find.

 

[Hammster]

The word γεννηθη (you - singular - be born) is aorist passive. It means essentially to partake in being born again. "Become born again." It's a verb and the action is received but the responsibility is on the one he's speaking to - all persons who wish to see or enter the kingdom of God, must "become born."

Nowhere are we told that this process is magical or happens to us without our participation. Jesus was issuing a command. Were it not understood that way, then Nicodemus would have responded in a completely different way.

He understood it as a command as is made perfectly clear by his response.

Is a man able to enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born again?

Nicodemus understood that Jesus was telling him that it required action or obedience on our part.

After this conversation, what does it say Jesus and his apostles were doing?

You say it’s aorist, something that happens to us, and then change horses in midstream and make it something we do.

Okay, how do you make yourself born again?

 

[Hammster]

You can't be in Christ apart from faith in Him and therefore, if you have not placed your faith in Christ, you are not a new creature in Him. The passage makes no sense apart from faith and repentance. So, yes, it does make the argument you deny that it makes when compared to other passages dealing with salvation and the inward transformation associated with it which are found from Matthew to Revelation. They are not hard to find.

Okay. It seems that you can’t provide the supporting scripture, so I’ll let it go. I don’t want to keep going around and around.

 

[Al Touthentop]

You say it’s aorist, something that happens to us, and then change horses in midstream and make it something we do.

Well it is the passive tense not aorist that speaks of how God is also participatory. Aorist is essentially an unmarked tense that indicates the action is completed but not necessarily when.

Okay, how do you make yourself born again?

Read Romans 6. One thing we do know from what Jesus said is that it involves water.

 

[Contenders Edge]

Okay. It seems that you can’t provide the supporting scripture, so I’ll let it go. I don’t want to keep going around and around.

I could provide supporting scripture, but did you stop to think that maybe I thought you were asking a question that was just plain stupid?

 

[Hammster]

Well it is the passive tense not aorist that speaks of how God is also participatory. Aorist is essentially an unmarked tense that indicates the action is completed but not necessarily when.


Read Romans 6. One thing we do know from what Jesus said is that it involves water.

Nothing in Romans 6 talks about being born again.

 

[Hammster]

I could provide supporting scripture, but did you stop to think that maybe I thought you were asking a question that was just plain stupid?

Why the hostility? You made a statement. I challenged your understanding. You failed to give the support you said was there.