Refuting OSAS in jesus name

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"No. It sounds as though there is no understanding of my posts on your part. Quite wrong. Are you familiar with the 2 Greek words for "repent"? Seems not. One means a change of mind, with nothing to do with feelings. The other means to regret, which includes feeling bad. However, NONE of the verses about repent referring to salvation use the regret meaning. All of them are about change of mind. And to be saved, one must change their mind about a lot of things: 1. that they are a sinner 2. that they need saving from the lake of fire 3. that Christ died for their sins 4. that Christ gives the free gift of eternal life to those who believe in Him for it. This is true repentance in the sense of needing to be saved. Our feelings have NOTHING to do with getting or keeping saved. How many times must I correct your misuse of this verse? The KJVERSION got it wrong. isn't about just past sins. Heb 10 refutes your idea thoroughly. No one gets saved with sorrow. What does John 20:31 say? Please respond to this verse."

You can't say the bible got it wrong ??!

Apparently my comments were not read. I said the KJversion got it wrong. And I explained how it did.

And then aid Hebrews 10 refutes Romans 3

I never used any verse to refute any other verse. That is silly.

That would be a contradiction in the bible if your theory is correct AGAIN

Please explain this. I am not following whatever point you are trying to make.

Your words "The KJVERSION got it wrong."
Your basing this theology on an "assumption" that God got it wrong?

Apparently you subscribe to the KJ is the only Bible. Well, there are many translations. And the KJV is just one of them. No better, and many will argue, not as good as many others.

so is that how you justify your theology not being a contradiction In the WORD OF GOD??

The issue is one of best translations of Greek words.

The kjv was written before the niv the nkjv or any translation after that omits versus out of the bible or changes meanings all together!

I don't intend to get into a spat about the KJV vs any other translation. But I will say this: the copied manuscripts used for the KJV are much YOUNGER than most of the later translations. Which makes the KJV INFERIOR to them.

Andy why do they have to even stop sinning ?? what's the reason ?? None according to OSAS

I'm getting a bit tired of your failure to read my posts. I've given PLENTY of reason to stop sinning. I've NEVER given sin a pass, so quit making that stupid claim.

If you are not reading my posts, there is no reason to bother responding to yours.

 

[lori milne]

The Bible says that eternal life is a gift of God (Rom 6:23), and that God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29). This is irrefutable. So, yes, once saved, always saved. All who have believed are covered. There are no verses that tell us clearly and plainly that salvation can be lost, given away, or forfeited. Just the opposite; eternal life is irrevocable.

Prove OSAS in the words of CHRIST
What does jesus say not just tue only 1 book in the bible lol
Get out of Romans and prove your theology

 

[FreeGrace2]

Apostasy in Christianity refers to the rejection of Christianity by someone who formerly was a Christian.

Hello??? That's basically what I said it is. To no longer believe what was once believed. When one ceases to believe what was once believed, that is a rejection.

The term apostasy comes from the Greek word apostasia ("ἀποστασία") meaning defection, departure, revolt or rebellion. It has been described as "a willful falling away from, or rebellion against, Christianity.

What I've been saying.

Apostasy is the rejection of Christ by one who has been a Christian…."

It's what I've been saying.

[2] "Apostasy is a theological category describing those who have voluntarily and consciously abandoned their faith in the God of the covenant, who manifests himself most completely in Jesus Christ."

It's what I've been saying.

[3] "Apostasy is the antonym of conversion; it is deconversion."[1]

Nope. No one converts themselves, and no one de-converts themselves.

So we can throw out #3. All the rest agree with what I've already posted.

 

[lori milne]

The Bible says that eternal life is a gift of God (Rom 6:23), and that God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29). This is irrefutable. So, yes, once saved, always saved. All who have believed are covered. There are no verses that tell us clearly and plainly that salvation can be lost, given away, or forfeited. Just the opposite; eternal life is irrevocable.

Btw only kjv versus no Calvinistic re translated version

 

[FreeGrace2]

Prove OSAS in the words of CHRIST

So apparently you reject the rest of the Bible. You know, all those words in black ink, vs read ink. Really?

I've proven it from Paul's writings. If that's not good enough for you, I guess there isn't any more to say.

What does jesus say not just tue only 1 book in the bible lol

This sentence doesn't make any sense. Please clarify.

Get out of Romans and prove your theology

OK, so you're not impressed with anything Paul wrote. That is quite sad.

Are you not aware that Jesus Christ is the Living Word, and the Bible (all of it) is the Written Word?

Why would anyone try to pit Paul against Jesus? How does that make sense?

My recommendation is to accept ALL of what the Bible teaches, and know that none of the Bible contradicts any other part.

It is clear that you are not interested in dealing with Rom 6:23 and Rom 11:29, because they refute your views and you cannot defend your view against these verses.

So you tell me to get out of Romans. Cute. That's not how to defend your own position or refute someone else's.

The more posts I read of yours, the more convinced I am of just how confused your position is.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Btw only kjv versus no Calvinistic re translated version

I've already pointed out that I'm not a Calvinist, so please QUIT bringing up Calvinism. It is totally irrelevant to the discussion.

The the KJV used much later copies of manuscripts than newer translations, such as the NIV, NASB, ESV, etc.

So the KJV is an inferior translation. From manuscripts copied during the 10th Century. Just think of how many copy errors come from copies of copies over centuries and centuries.

The newer translations are from manuscripts that date back MUCH CLOSER to the original autographs, meaning much fewer copy errors.

 

[lori milne]

I've already pointed out that I'm not a Calvinist, so please QUIT bringing up Calvinism. It is totally irrelevant to the discussion. The the KJV used much later copies of manuscripts than newer translations, such as the NIV, NASB, ESV, etc. So the KJV is an inferior translation. From manuscripts copied during the 10th Century. Just think of how many copy errors come from copies of copies over centuries and centuries. The newer translations are from manuscripts that date back MUCH CLOSER to the original autographs, meaning much fewer copy errors.

That assumed by you and the believe if some one or who ever else and can't and won't be proven at all again a contradiction in the WORD OF GOD is wrong

Also OSAS and all the other OSAS or predestined theory's stem from the original reformation done by John Calvin

 

[Leet]

Sorry if these verses have been quoted, I'm not reading the whole thread lol.


Matthew 10:22 says those who endure TIL THE END will be saved.
(Not those who made a commitment in a prayer line as a teen, then walked away.)

Luke 12:41-46 42 The Lord answered, “Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? 43 It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. 44 Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45 But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the other servants, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk. 46 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.

**********Maybe it's just me but isn't that referring to Christ's return, people doing as they please at the time of, then finding themselves "cut to pieces and assigned a place with the unbelievers?"

Hebrews 3:6-13New King James Version (NKJV)

6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.[a]

Be Faithful
7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says:

“Today, if you will hear His voice,
8 Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,
In the day of trial in the wilderness,
9 Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me,
And saw My works forty years.
10 Therefore I was angry with that generation,
And said, ‘They always go astray in their heart,
And they have not known My ways.’
11 So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest.’”
12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

 

[lori milne]

So apparently you reject the rest of the Bible. You know, all those words in black ink, vs read ink. Really? I've proven it from Paul's writings. If that's not good enough for you, I guess there isn't any more to say. This sentence doesn't make any sense. Please clarify. OK, so you're not impressed with anything Paul wrote. That is quite sad. Are you not aware that Jesus Christ is the Living Word, and the Bible (all of it) is the Written Word? Why would anyone try to pit Paul against Jesus? How does that make sense? My recommendation is to accept ALL of what the Bible teaches, and know that none of the Bible contradicts any other part. It is clear that you are not interested in dealing with Rom 6:23 and Rom 11:29, because they refute your views and you cannot defend your view against these verses. So you tell me to get out of Romans. Cute. That's not how to defend your own position or refute someone else's. The more posts I read of yours, the more convinced I am of just how confused your position is.

No I said get out of Romans and prove your theory I didn't say I didn't agree with Paul I GET the books he wrote and don't base my entire theology off of a few versus the a lot of men seem to have twisted around!
Like I said use ANY verse from JESUS and if you can't then who knows your theology might me unbalanced?

 

[lori milne]

Sorry if these verses have been quoted, I'm not reading the whole thread lol. Matthew 10:22 says those who endure TIL THE END will be saved. (Not those who made a commitment in a prayer line as a teen, then walked away.) Luke 12:41-46 42 The Lord answered, “Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? 43 It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. 44 Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45 But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the other servants, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk. 46 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers. **********Maybe it's just me but isn't that referring to Christ's return, people doing as they please at the time of, then finding themselves "cut to pieces and assigned a place with the unbelievers?" Hebrews 3:6-13New King James Version (NKJV) 6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.[a] Be Faithful 7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says: “Today, if you will hear His voice, 8 Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, In the day of trial in the wilderness, 9 Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, And saw My works forty years. 10 Therefore I was angry with that generation, And said, ‘They always go astray in their heart, And they have not known My ways.’ 11 So I swore in My wrath, ‘They shall not enter My rest.’” 12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Amen

 

[lori milne]

I've already pointed out that I'm not a Calvinist, so please QUIT bringing up Calvinism. It is totally irrelevant to the discussion. The the KJV used much later copies of manuscripts than newer translations, such as the NIV, NASB, ESV, etc. So the KJV is an inferior translation. From manuscripts copied during the 10th Century. Just think of how many copy errors come from copies of copies over centuries and centuries. The newer translations are from manuscripts that date back MUCH CLOSER to the original autographs, meaning much fewer copy errors.

l

They take kjv versus out that are said were. NEver in the bible based off of later found scrolls /kodaks can't be proven either way!
These found by the Roman Catholic Church which after would all Christian book stores started selling catholic and Christian together
I'm not catholic KJV only friend

 

[Zanting]

Hello??? That's basically what I said it is. To no longer believe what was once believed. When one ceases to believe what was once believed, that is a rejection.


What I've been saying.


It's what I've been saying.


It's what I've been saying.

If this is what you are saying, then you know OSAS isn't true.

 

[FreeGrace2]

That assumed by you and the believe if some one or who ever else and can't and won't be proven at all again a contradiction in the WORD OF GOD is wrong

I have no idea what this sentence is trying to communicate. Please slowly read aloud your sentence and you'll see what I mean.

Also OSAS and all the other OSAS or predestined theory's stem from the original reformation done by John Calvin

OSAS comes from the Bible.

btw, There was only 1 reformation, so no need for the word "original". And, btw, the reformation began with Martin Luther, not JC. A little research goes a long way.

 

[FreeGrace2]

No I said get out of Romans and prove your theory

OSAS isn't some theory, as you wrongly assume. Paul taught it clearly. I suggest that one get INTO Romans.

I didn't say I didn't agree with Paul I GET the books he wrote and don't base my entire theology off of a few versus the a lot of men seem to have twisted around!

If I've twisted anything from Romans, please explain clearly how I have. btw, my entire theology isn't just OSAS.

However, Rom 6:23 and Rom 11:29 totally refute your view.

Like I said use ANY verse from JESUS and if you can't then who knows your theology might me unbalanced?

OK, sure. Let's go to John 10 and note what Jesus said about eternal life.

v.28 Jesus said: I give them eternal life and they will NEVER PERISH. Then He goes further to say that no one (not any person) can snatch them out of My hand.
v.29 Jesus said: My Father, who gaven them to Me is greater than all; no one (not any person) can snatch them out of My Father's hand.

So, what do we learn from Jesus' own words? That He gives eternal life to believers, who are identified in the context as "My sheep". Also, He makes very clear that not any person can snatch any believer from His or His Father's hand.

That is eternal security, also known as OSAS.

When He said "no one can…" He was referring to any person. Which would also include the believer himself.

So even believers CANNOT snatch themselves from His or His Father's hand.

If that isn't enough to convince one of the FACT of eternal security, let's now go to John 5:24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, HAS eternal life, and DOES NOT COME into judgment, but has PASSED OUT of death into life.

Note that the one who has believed already HAS eternal life. Present reality. Further, the one who has believed WILL NOT come into judgment. Future reality. Why? Because the one who has believed has PASSED OUT of spiritual death into eternal life. Past reality.

Jesus included past, present and future reality all in one verse.

If one's salvation could be lost, returned, revoked, forfeited, etc, etc, etc, then He couldn't have said what He said in John 5:24. In fact, He wouldn't have said it.

But He did say it. Which proves eternal security. Along with John 10:28,29. And all of what Paul wrote.

 

[FreeGrace2]

l

They take kjv versus out that are said were. NEver in the bible based off of later found scrolls /kodaks can't be proven either way!

These sentences don't make sense.

These found by the Roman Catholic Church which after would all Christian book stores started selling catholic and Christian together

Another sentence that doesn't make sense.

Please proof read your posts before submitting.

I'm not catholic KJV only friend

What does catholic and KJV have to do with each other?

 

[FreeGrace2]

If this is what you are saying, then you know OSAS isn't true.

I think you're confused. Apostacy has nothing to do with salvation. It's about belief and changing belief.

Please follow my posts to lori. Where I've proven from both Paul's and Jesus' words about eternal security.

 

[Zanting]

I think you're confused. Apostacy has nothing to do with salvation. It's about belief and changing belief.

Huh??? That's like saying belief has nothing to do with salvation????? Apostasy by definition clearly states you have to first have salvation to commit apostasy.

Please follow my posts to lori. Where I've proven from both Paul's and Jesus' words about eternal security.

I've read your posts. But this is a centuries old debate in Christian theology and, no offence intended, you have presented nothing new to the debate.

So the debate remains, and like others, you have proven nothing with those scriptures. And yes, OSAS is a theological theory based on interpretation of scripture. And in this particular debate, it is taking single verses out of context, always has been. There is not one verse in the Bible that reads "once saved, always saved." If you can provide/quote scripture with that phrase, then do so. That will make it very clear, and this centuries old debate will cease to exist in Christian theology.

On the other hand, throughout the OT and the NT, we have countless examples of judgement on those who turn away. From God in the OT, and from Jesus in the NT. And the definition of apostasy is very clearly stated in scripture.

Do you truly believe those who commit apostasy retain the gifts of salvation???? If so, I will agree to disagree with your interpretation of scripture regarding salvation and apostasy, because you cannot have one without the other. OSAS is a contradiction of scripture, and Christ's truth in His word cannot do that. That in and of itself is enough for me to stay away from such teachings, and present Christ's truth instead.

We are warned. There is our way, or His way. From everything that I have seen surrounding the centuries old OSAS debate, it is not what our Savoir said, or meant in any of those scriptures. It is mans way. It allows man to live however he wants without consequence or repentance, because they have salvation and are forgiven already, for whatever they have done, do, or will do. The Bible has never taught that.

Apostasy teaches that if you fall from grace, through your own free will, your own personal choices, you are giving back what grace has given. You are rejecting Christ, and returning His gifts.

Everyone agrees that we can either accept, or decline the gifts of salvation. And we maintain that free will whether we choose to be Christians or not. Our Savoir does not force anyone to remain faithful. And no one is forced to keep the gifts our Savoir has given. As long as we believe Christ is our Savoir, repent from our sinful ways, give up the desires of the flesh to walk in the spirit of our Savoir, and remain in that faith, our salvation is protected from outside forces through prayer, worship, reading the Bible, abstaining from willful sin, and constantly seeking His truth.

Our Savoir indeed takes nothing back, and those gifts are always there for the taking. But Christians can give back salvation's gifts through apostasy.

If you look around, apostasy is happening all over western cultures, and elsewhere, within churches and among Christians. Exactly as scripture said it would.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I think you're confused. Apostacy has nothing to do with salvation. It's about belief and changing belief.

Huh??? That's like saying belief has nothing to do with salvation?????

I think that is confused. Apostacy is no longer believing what one used to believe. Salvation does NOT hinge on apostasy.

Apostasy by definition clearly states you have to first have salvation to commit apostasy.

Yes, my point as well.

Please follow my posts to lori. Where I've proven from both Paul's and Jesus' words about eternal security.[/QUOTE]
I've read your posts. But this is a centuries old debate in Christian theology and, no offence intended, you have presented nothing new to the debate.[/QUOTE]
Why would anyone think I'm presenting anything new? The Scriptures themselve teach eternal security. I'm just pointing it out.

So the debate remains, and like others, you have proven nothing with those scriptures.

I have shown where the Scriptures teach eternal security. And others are free to reject the truth.

And yes, OSAS is a theological theory based on interpretation of scripture.

lol It's no theory, but anyone is free to call it whatever they wish. And the verses are clear and need no interpretation. When Jesusw said that no person (no one) can snatch one of His sheep from His or the Father's hand, how unclear is that statement? I'd say it is perfectly clear. No one would include even the believer himself, because "no one" or "not any person" would obviously include the believer himself. And just to cover all bases here, IF it were possible that the believer were all that powerful and COULD snatch himself from the Father's hand, how's come there isn't ANY verse that teaches such an event? If true, that should absolutely be communicated in Scripture.

And in this particular debate, it is taking single verses out of context, always has been.

Oh, yeah, sure. Cheap argument. I've made my case. If anyone can show how my comments take verses "out of context" please show me.

There is not one verse in the Bible that reads "once saved, always saved."

And we're not a bunch of dummies who can't understand simple words of Paul or Jesus either.

When Paul described eternal life as a gift of God in Rom 6:23 and the next use of that word "gift" is found in Rom 11:29 where Paul wrote that God's gifts are IRREVOCABLE, I cannot imagine how one can deny the obvious truth of that.

Since God's gifts are irrevocable, and eternal life is one of God's gifts, gee, the dots are pretty close for connecting.

If you can provide/quote scripture with that phrase, then do so.

Cheap argument. But I'll join in. Where is there ANY verse that actually says that one can lose their salvation. Checkmate, mate.

That will make it very clear, and this centuries old debate will cease to exist in Christian theology.

Goes both ways, mate.

But, I've already proven eternal security from both Paul's and Jesus' words.

On the other hand, throughout the OT and the NT, we have countless examples of judgement on those who turn away. From God in the OT, and from Jesus in the NT. And the definition of apostasy is very clearly stated in scripture.

I don't argue against any of this. Yet, where is there ANY mention of actual loss of salvation in ANY of those verses and passages? They AREN'T there, of course.

Do you truly believe those who commit apostasy retain the gifts of salvation????

Uh, salvation itself is the gift of God. It doesn't come with gifts, as your comment suggests. And, yes I do believe that. Why? Because Paul SAID that God's gifts, which include eternal life, are IRREVOCABLE.

I believe what the Bible SAYS. And it says that God's gifts are irrevocable. And that includes eternal life. So why don't you believe that?

If so, I will agree to disagree with your interpretation of scripture regarding salvation and apostasy, because you cannot have one without the other.

That would be an opinion, with which I will obviously disagree.

OSAS is a contradiction of scripture

I heard that statement often from your side, but I've never seen any support for that or evidence of that. Please explain why OSAS would be a contradiction.

We are warned.

Yes, we are. Yet, NONE of the warnings plainly say that loss of salvation is the result. Just using your own tactic. If there were any, yes, it'd be a slam dunk in your favor. But the slam dunk is in favor of eternal security.

There is our way, or His way. From everything that I have seen surrounding the centuries old OSAS debate, it is not what our Savoir said, or meant in any of those scriptures. It is mans way. It allows man to live however he wants without consequence or repentance, because they have salvation and are forgiven already, for whatever they have done, do, or will do. The Bible has never taught that.

This is confused. Jesus Himself said that no person can snatch the believer out of His Father's hand. Yet your view is that the believer himself can. And all without any verse that SAYS SO. Why is that?

Apostasy teaches that if you fall from grace, through your own free will, your own personal choices, you are giving back what grace has given. You are rejecting Christ, and returning His gifts.

One small little problem. Apostacy is a word, and teaches nothing. And it is merely an opinion to claim that apostacy means to "give back" anything. It isn't about giving back, but no longer believing. That is the only issue with apostasy.

Everyone agrees that we can either accept, or decline the gifts of salvation.

But it seems that many fail to understand that once received, it is IRREVOCABLE and there are ZERO verses that teach that one can "give back" the gift. That is just pure nonsense.

Our Savoir indeed takes nothing back, and those gifts are always there for the taking. But Christians can give back salvation's gifts through apostasy.

Please prove your claim about "giving back" any gift with clear Scripture to support the claim.

 

[lori milne]

Balanced word from Paul on folks who were misinterpreting the word and confusing everyone
And his position on brethren who sin!
Btw for those of you who need the worst translation here's John MacArthurs version
Then NASB Just to be fair!


This persuasion did not come from Him who calls you. A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough. I have confidence in you in the Lord that you will adopt no other view; but the one who is disturbing you will bear his judgment, whoever he is.

I wish that those who are troubling you would even mutilate themselves.

But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God
Galatians‬ [bless and do not curse]5‬:[bless and do not curse]8-10, 12, 16-21‬ NASB

Balanced diet of the word means to take account of the entire word of God
Like " who shall ever believe in him"
And" the elect"
Two very obvious directions correct
Well if we look elect only is stated 8 times in the entire bible!
Ware God loves the world is only in the word 6 times?
So keep reading search it out on your own Not what's said Man
And if you need maybes timeline Bible can help.
look to Bible scholars for just basic timeline info!

If we can go through collages and learn trig and micro organism them in sure we can see clearly what God is saying to us INDIVIDUALLY because it's a personal relationship!
You have to build your own Faith not believe someone's understandings or better Word theology!

 

[Zanting]

I think that is confused. Apostacy is no longer believing what one used to believe. Salvation does NOT hinge on apostasy.


Yes, my point as well.


Please follow my posts to lori. Where I've proven from both Paul's and Jesus' words about eternal security.

I've read your posts. But this is a centuries old debate in Christian theology and, no offence intended, you have presented nothing new to the debate.[/QUOTE]
Why would anyone think I'm presenting anything new? The Scriptures themselve teach eternal security. I'm just pointing it out.


I have shown where the Scriptures teach eternal security. And others are free to reject the truth.


lol It's no theory, but anyone is free to call it whatever they wish. And the verses are clear and need no interpretation. When Jesusw said that no person (no one) can snatch one of His sheep from His or the Father's hand, how unclear is that statement? I'd say it is perfectly clear. No one would include even the believer himself, because "no one" or "not any person" would obviously include the believer himself. And just to cover all bases here, IF it were possible that the believer were all that powerful and COULD snatch himself from the Father's hand, how's come there isn't ANY verse that teaches such an event? If true, that should absolutely be communicated in Scripture.


Oh, yeah, sure. Cheap argument. I've made my case. If anyone can show how my comments take verses "out of context" please show me.


And we're not a bunch of dummies who can't understand simple words of Paul or Jesus either.

When Paul described eternal life as a gift of God in Rom 6:23 and the next use of that word "gift" is found in Rom 11:29 where Paul wrote that God's gifts are IRREVOCABLE, I cannot imagine how one can deny the obvious truth of that.

Since God's gifts are irrevocable, and eternal life is one of God's gifts, gee, the dots are pretty close for connecting.


Cheap argument. But I'll join in. Where is there ANY verse that actually says that one can lose their salvation. Checkmate, mate.


Goes both ways, mate.

But, I've already proven eternal security from both Paul's and Jesus' words.


I don't argue against any of this. Yet, where is there ANY mention of actual loss of salvation in ANY of those verses and passages? They AREN'T there, of course.


Uh, salvation itself is the gift of God. It doesn't come with gifts, as your comment suggests. And, yes I do believe that. Why? Because Paul SAID that God's gifts, which include eternal life, are IRREVOCABLE.

I believe what the Bible SAYS. And it says that God's gifts are irrevocable. And that includes eternal life. So why don't you believe that?


That would be an opinion, with which I will obviously disagree.


I heard that statement often from your side, but I've never seen any support for that or evidence of that. Please explain why OSAS would be a contradiction.


Yes, we are. Yet, NONE of the warnings plainly say that loss of salvation is the result. Just using your own tactic. If there were any, yes, it'd be a slam dunk in your favor. But the slam dunk is in favor of eternal security.


This is confused. Jesus Himself said that no person can snatch the believer out of His Father's hand. Yet your view is that the believer himself can. And all without any verse that SAYS SO. Why is that?


One small little problem. Apostacy is a word, and teaches nothing. And it is merely an opinion to claim that apostacy means to "give back" anything. It isn't about giving back, but no longer believing. That is the only issue with apostasy.


But it seems that many fail to understand that once received, it is IRREVOCABLE and there are ZERO verses that teach that one can "give back" the gift. That is just pure nonsense.

Our Savoir indeed takes nothing back, and those gifts are always there for the taking. But Christians can give back salvation's gifts through apostasy.

Please prove your claim about "giving back" any gift with clear Scripture to support the claim.

Wow, me huh...well I am among millions of other Christians who believe as I do. Not me, Christian teaching, and understanding of scripture. There is only one truth.
What you have said makes no sense. You completely separate apostasy from salvation. That directly contradicts scripture.

Like I said. I agree to disagree.