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lori milne said:Nice versus I liked that a lot I'm looking for more like this!!! So I can stop the crazy train! Correct me but I only saw the meaning as we didn't receive Gods grace or jesus to come and forgive our sins Because we we're righteous which is a pretty obvious duh statement.
We received God's grace while we were yet sinners. And at the time we received His gift of eternal life, we received God's grace in full measure. At the same time we received IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS, just as Abraham received IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS, and every believer since Abel has received imputed righteousness.Nice versus I liked that a lot I'm looking for more like this!!! So I can stop the crazy train!
Correct me but I only saw the meaning as we didn't receive Gods grace or jesus to come and forgive our sins
Because we we're righteous which is a pretty obvious duh statement.
lori milne said:I'm delving into righteousness now in scripture Thanks for the verses
That is correct. Salvation is one complete package with many components.So According to scripture Righteousness were given with forgiven of sin
I've studied Romans 3-4:25Job8 said:We received God's grace while we were yet sinners. And at the time we received His gift of eternal life, we received God's grace in full measure. At the same time we received IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS, just as Abraham received IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS, and every believer since Abel has received imputed righteousness. What is imputed righteousness? It is the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF CHRIST put to the account of every person who believes on the Lord Jesus Christ. To understand imputed righteousness, we go to Rom 3:21 - 5:11 and study that entire portion of Scripture. Justification (declared not guilty) goes hand in hand with imputed righteousness (as righteous as Christ).
lori milne said:I've studied Romans 3-4:25 Imputed is given ?? Because of his faith ? Therefore, V'YACHSHEVEH-HA LO TZEDAKAH ("it [his faith in G-d] was accounted, credited to him for righteousness" BERESHIS 15:6) ([bless and do not curse]Kehilah in Rome‬ [bless and do not curse]4‬:[bless and do not curse]22‬ OJB Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision! And he received the ot (sign or distinguishing mark) of the milah (circumcision) as a chotam (seal) of the Tzidkat HaEmunah (the Righteousness of Faith) which he had in his uncircumcision, in order that he might be father of all who believe through uncircumcision, that to be YITZDAK IM HASHEM might be reckoned, counted to them as well, ([bless and do not curse]Kehilah in Rome‬ [bless and do not curse]4‬:[bless and do not curse]11‬ OJB) Righteousness assumed /Given to them because of the faith But according to scripture what is righteousness Thank you for this Btw
You said the birthright: has nothing to do with our salvation, so what do you say the author is referring to; in describing something Christians own and can give or sell that they should not?I said this:
"Sorry, but Esau's birthright has nothing to do with our salvation. Wrong analogy. The free gift of God is eternal life (Rom 6:23) which is also irrevocable (Rom 11:29). This is irrefutable and undeniable."
I don't understand your statement, given what I said, that you responded to.
We do not have eternal security it is always contingent on our desire to have salvation.How does this relate to eternal security?
I did not say it was returnable, satan is wanting us to give him our salvation (birthright).There are zero verses to support the idea that salvation is returnable. None.
All that is true on Gods part, but it never says mans free will is removed and man himself cannot walk away. God is not chaining man to his salvation.The problem with such as view is that what the Bible calls salvation has a lot of things involved, NONE of which are returnable. For example, we become a child of God. Jn 1:12, Gal 3:26.
We are justified. Rom 5:1
We are forgiven. Acts 10:43
Jesus used 3 tenses for eternal life:
present tense - HAS eternal life
past tense - HAS crossed over from death to life
future tense - will NOT come into condemnation
If election is not an unconditional charitable gift from God than what do you feel it is?The only description anywhere in Romans for a "gift" (charisma) is regarding spiritual gifts in 1:11, eternal life in 5:15,16 and 6:23, before he wrote 11:29.
The gift of being born a Jews is irrevocable from Gods part, but where all born of the seed of Abraham and the promise truly Jews?And, your passage doesn't even mention "gift" until v.29. And it wasn't about election in that passage anyway. And election is never described as a gift.
I said this:
"I do not see anything here that speaks of either selling or giving away your salvation. We are held in God's hand. Jn 10:28-29."
There is nothing in Jn 10:28-29 about not inheriting eternal life if one walks away. And there are no verses anywhere that teach this.
It was irrelevant to the facts. Paul was clear about what he meant by "gifts" (charisma). Eternal life is a gift and gifts are irrevocable.
Paul spells it out very specifically in this analogy: whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. And for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.The concept of "reaping" involves abundance. The same principle is found in Jn 10:10, where Jesus said He came that the sheep would have life and have it more abundantly. iow, there is eternal life, and there is abundant eternal life. Which deals with eternal rewards beyond just being in heaven.
Here is the Greek word for "reap" used both positively and negatively:
theridō
1) to reap, harvest
2) proverbial expression for sowing and reaping
3) cut off, destroy
3a) as crops are cut down with a sickle
Eternal life is not the result of our works.Sure, God brings forth the harvest. What does this have to do with the discussion, though?
1 Tim. 5: 14 So I counsel younger widows to marry, to have children, to manage their homes and to give the enemy no opportunity for slander. 15 Some have in fact already turned away to follow Satan.Please provide Scriptural support for this statement.
Is there salvation from things in this world or only salvation we will have in heaven?Which doesn't have anything to do with loss of salvation. Or there'd be some verses that teach such.
What works are being referenced here?Once we believe, and are saved, lack of surrender at any point in our lives will result in loss of reward, as noted by 1 Cor 3:15. Not loss of salvation.
If any mans work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
It is obvious that it isn't loss of salvation here, but loss of something else, based on our works, or deeds.
OK, tell me this, what rewards (earned?) do you go to heaven with that others going to heaven will not have in heaven?2 Jn 8 - Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward.
That is what all the warning passages are warning about; loss of eternal rewards.
That as sin hath reigned unto death(the penalty of sin is death, so we all can see that after sin, Adam & Eve indeed did die), even so might grace (God's unmerited favor towards us) reign (become higher than sin and higher than death) through righteousness (the righteousness of Christ, who died for our sins) unto eternal life (our life after earth, which is heaven) by Jesus Christ our Lord (through Jesus Christ's death and sacrifice)
Romans‬ 5‬:21‬ KJV
scriptural def of
Grace =Favor in Gods eyes
And righteous = is sins forgiven through repentance because of faith
Meaning faith = righteousness =grace = works (this is ALL WRONG)
David exemplifies & confirms this through Paul's writings in romans
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin
Romans‬ [bless and do not curse]4‬:[bless and do not curse]6-8‬ KJV
So
According to scripture
Righteousness were given with forgiven of sin
ToBeBlessed said:See red above. Purple text Faith leads us to the Savior for salvation and is our belief that Jesus was the Son of God and is able to forgive sins. Righteousness is IMPUTED to us because we are IN Christ. Grace is the unmerited favor that Christ shows us at salvation and continues to show us through His always forgiving sin and other things. Works are what we cannot do to earn our way to heaven. All our good deeds are like filthy rags.
Esau's birthright has nothing to do with salvation. And there was no interaction or response to Rom 6:23 and 11:29. Eternal life is irrevocable. And no verse says that one can return eternal life. And since such life is eternal, it cannot die.You said the birthright: has nothing to do with our salvation, so what do you say the author is referring to; in describing something Christians own and can give or sell that they should not?
No, it doesn't. The inheritance in Hebrew is eternal reward, not salvation. The promised land had to be taken. That's works, or effort. We are not saved by works or effort. But we ARE rewarded for works or effort.Eternal life in heaven is referred to as our inheritance and the Hebrew writer is giving us the example of Esau selling his inheritance and saying we should not do the same. So that analogy seems to be an excellent fit?
What verse teaches this?We do not have eternal security it is always contingent on our desire to have salvation.
what verse teaches this?I did not say it was returnable, satan is wanting us to give him our salvation (birthright).
The word "harvest" refers to blessings. Just as Jesus came that the sheep might have life (eternal) and have it more abundantly (blessings, rewards).Gal. 6: 8-10 explains very plainly that we can give up and thus not have a harvest of eternal life.
Yes, man CAN walk away from his faith. But there are no verses that say that if one walks away, they lose salvation.All that is true on Gods part, but it never says mans free will is removed and man himself cannot walk away.
Poor choice of words. Being saved involves much. Becoming a child of God. Being forgiven forensically. Given eternal life. Being justified. None of these things are said to be losable in any sense.God is not chaining man to his salvation.
Biblical election is being chosen for special privilege and service. Not salvation.If election is not an unconditional charitable gift from God than what do you feel it is?
The reason we don't find the word "gift" between 6:23 and 11:29 is because Paul wasn't thinking of "gift" until 11:29. The offer of a gift is not a gift. It's that simple.The word gift is left out, so does that mean it is not a gift, but some kind of obligation?
I don't accept that being born a Jew is a gift in any sense. There are no verses to support this idea.The gift of being born a Jews is irrevocable from Gods part
Of course not. It is the result of believing in Christ. Jn 3:16, 6:40, 20:31Eternal life is not the result of our works.
What does this verse support?1 Tim. 5: 14 So I counsel younger widows to marry, to have children, to manage their homes and to give the enemy no opportunity for slander. 15 Some have in fact already turned away to follow Satan.
Rom 8:17b, 2 Tim 2:12, and many of the parables are about eternal rewards, like ruling cities.OK, tell me this, what rewards (earned?) do you go to heaven with that others going to heaven will not have in heaven?
Job8 said:Lori, Here is what Scripture presents (Tit 3:4-7), and this passage covers everything : 4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. FIRST -- GOD'S GRACE (Love, Mercy, Kindness) But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS EXCLUDED Not by works of righteousness which we have done, MERCY EXCLUSIVELY THE BASIS OF SALVATION according to his mercy he saved us, THE NEW BIRTH COMES FROM BELIEVING (OR FAITH) (See Jn 1:12,13) by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; THE NEW BIRTH COMES WITH JUSTIFICATION That being justified by his grace, THE NEW BIRTH MEANS BEING MADE HEIRS OF GOD we should be made heirs SALVATION COMES WITH THE GIFT OF ETERNAL LIFE according to the hope of eternal life. RIGHTEOUSNESS IMPUTED TO THE ONE WHO BELIEVES To tie this in with Romans 4, we simply need to look at Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
I have asked you to explain the analogy of Esaus birthright used by the Hebrew writer in Heb. 12, which you keep avoid doing. I have explained that analogy and all you have said: Wrong analogy.I said this:
"Sorry, but Esau's birthright has nothing to do with our salvation. Wrong analogy. The free gift of God is eternal life (Rom 6:23) which is also irrevocable (Rom 11:29). This is irrefutable and undeniable."
Esau's birthright has nothing to do with salvation. And there was no interaction or response to Rom 6:23 and 11:29. Eternal life is irrevocable. And no verse says that one can return eternal life. And since such life is eternal, it cannot die.
Where does it say this is referring to some heavenly reward and not heaven itself?No, it doesn't. The inheritance in Hebrew is eternal reward, not salvation. The promised land had to be taken. That's works, or effort. We are not saved by works or effort. But we ARE rewarded for works or effort.
Gal. 6: 8-10 and Heb. 12 which I have been talking about.What verse teaches this?
There are lots of New Testament verses on satan attacking Christians and warning Christians about satan trying to leading them away.what verse teaches this?
Sorry that is not specifically what scripture says, but Paul spells it out very specifically in this analogy: whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. And for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.The word "harvest" refers to blessings. Just as Jesus came that the sheep might have life (eternal) and have it more abundantly (blessings, rewards).
If man walks away from his faith, is man not also walking away from trusting in the Love of God, so man is trusting in himself?Yes, man CAN walk away from his faith. But there are no verses that say that if one walks away, they lose salvation.
That is the assumption you make in laying aside all the warnings as being insignificant when it comes to eternal life in heaven and specific verses like Gal. 6: 8-10.Poor choice of words. Being saved involves much. Becoming a child of God. Being forgiven forensically. Given eternal life. Being justified. None of these things are said to be losable in any sense.
Once a child, always a child.
You will have to explain that further.Biblical election is being chosen for special privilege and service. Not salvation.
What do you think it was?The only description anywhere in Romans for a "gift" (charisma) is regarding spiritual gifts in 1:11, eternal life in 5:15,16 and 6:23, before he wrote 11:29.
The reason we don't find the word "gift" between 6:23 and 11:29 is because Paul wasn't thinking of "gift" until 11:29. The offer of a gift is not a gift. It's that simple.
I don't accept that being born a Jew is a gift in any sense. There are no verses to support this idea.
The idea that some Christians turned away to follow satan. If this is not talking about Christians they would not have turned since they already were following satan.Of course not. It is the result of believing in Christ. Jn 3:16, 6:40, 20:31
What does this verse support?
OK, so you rule a huge city in heaven and I live in a cardboard box on the street outside your city. Will you ask me to join you, sit at your table, have a room in your mansion and would you wash my feet?Rom 8:17b, 2 Tim 2:12, and many of the parables are about eternal rewards, like ruling cities.
I did explain that it had nothing to do with salvation, which I believe, was your point. So I will explain what it was. He, as the firstborn, was entitled to the "firstborn's inheritance" rights. But he gave it away. That was a literal inheritance right, and again, has nothing to do with salvation. After giving it away, he was unable to get that privilege back, even though he sought it with tears. His father would not change his mind (no repentance). The whole book of Hebrews is about eternal reward. Not salvation.I have asked you to explain the analogy of Esaus birthright used by the Hebrew writer in Heb. 12, which you keep avoid doing.
That's all there was to say about it.I have explained that analogy and all you have said: Wrong analogy.
lol Rom 6:23 is about eternal life, which is salvation. And 11:29 says that God's gifts are irrevocable. Eternal life is irrevocable. That is irrefutable.You also go back to the verses which I did explain and do not apply to eternal life in Ro. 6 and 11 to try and explain it is irrevocable.
In the "hall of faith" of ch 11, note 10, 13, 14, 16, 26 (esp), 39 (esp). They are referring to more than heaven. If salvation, or just getting to heaven, then how would one explain v.13 and 39? It says they didn't receive the things promised when they died. That would mean they didn't get to heaven, if heaven was the focus. But the whole chapter refers to the New Jerusalem (Rev 21) which, in context, is about reward in eternity.Where does it say this is referring to some heavenly reward and not heaven itself?
Pick out any warning, and try to show where in any of those passages the warning is about loss of salvation.There is also all these warnings given Christians, which you say only refers to some heavenly rewards and not heaven itself, but have not shown where that is found in scripture (it just seems to go against your conclusion)?
Yes, there are. So?There are lots of New Testament verses on satan attacking Christians and warning Christians about satan trying to leading them away.
I believe I have already addressed this, but I'm happy to do so again. To "reap" eternal life refers to the blessings and reward beyond just entering heaven. Jesus noted as much in Jn 10:10, when He said that He would die for everyone (the sheep) so that they may have life (salvation) and have it MORE ABUNDANTLY (rewards).Again you can go back to Gal. 6:8-10 to help you.
At that point, the die is cast. He HAS become a new creature, born again, a child of God. Where does Scripture teach that these are reversible or forfeited?If man walks away from his faith, is man not also walking away from trusting in the Love of God, so man is trusting in himself?
I've NEVER said any of the warnings are insignificant. They are ALL highly significant. When God warns, we better pay attention. But one must have the discernment to understand that eternal life is irrevocable, and the warnings about about loss of future blessings and reward.That is the assumption you make in laying aside all the warnings as being insignificant when it comes to eternal life in heaven and specific verses like Gal. 6: 8-10.
Yep. But that is not relevant to the issue of eternal security. No believer holds on to their salvation by free will, and no one loses it by free will.Man still has free will even after becoming a Christian.
I said this: "Biblical election is being chosen for special privilege and service. Not salvation." That is clear enough. God choses people for special privilege and service. And this includes unbelievers. Here are the 6 categories of election that I have found in Scripture:You will have to explain that further.
I'm not sure what is being asked. The topic was the "gift" of Rom 11:29 and your contention that 11:29 referred to Israel being chosen as a gift.What do you think it was?
Yes, some have turned away to follow Satan.The idea that some Christians turned away to follow satan. If this is not talking about Christians they would not have turned since they already were following satan.
I have no use for any attempt to minimize eternal rewards, or to mock them. I think one can to better than that. When the Bible speaks of ruling cities, it doesn't use quotes, which I take as a sign of sarcasm.OK, so you rule a huge city in heaven and I live in a cardboard box on the street outside your city. Will you ask me to join you, sit at your table, have a room in your mansion and would you wash my feet?
In the Millennium and then the eternal state, Christ won't be a servant. He will be the ruling King. I have no idea what is meant by your "spiritual realm" is referring to.Are rulers in the spiritual realm really servant, serving others (like Christ)?
To be sure, there will be winners and losers in heaven, though it seems very few believers understand that, including most pastors. But 2 Jn 8 is a clear warning about not losing reward. Jesus was clear about that as well.If in heaven you have a greater Love, so you Love me more than I Love you, who is the winner and loser in that scenario?
I do not believe that Christ will be a servant in heaven now, nor during the Millennial rule, nor in the eternal state, per Rev 21.This is a good thought at the end about ruling cities and what things will be like in heaven.
Like the previous poster clarified (my reply is not working, CF has been having difficulties the past few days), that in heaven will we be rulers or servants?
If we are like our Lord in heaven, we will indeed be servants.
I do not believe that Christ will be a servant in heaven now, nor during the Millennial rule, nor in the eternal state, per Rev 21.
I am not suggesting Esau gave up his salvation to Jacob (that is silly). The Hebrew writer is using this as an analogy for what Christians can do and should not do with their birthright from being Christians.I did explain that it had nothing to do with salvation, which I believe, was your point. So I will explain what it was. He, as the firstborn, was entitled to the "firstborn's inheritance" rights. But he gave it away. That was a literal inheritance right, and again, has nothing to do with salvation. After giving it away, he was unable to get that privilege back, even though he sought it with tears. His father would not change his mind (no repentance). The whole book of Hebrews is about eternal reward. Not salvation.
That's all there was to say about it.
.lol Rom 6:23 is about eternal life, which is salvation. And 11:29 says that God's gifts are irrevocable. Eternal life is irrevocable. That is irrefutable
None of Hebrews 11 suggest these heroes of faith received any greater reward than you, I or anyone that is saved?In the "hall of faith" of ch 11, note 10, 13, 14, 16, 26 (esp), 39 (esp). They are referring to more than heaven. If salvation, or just getting to heaven, then how would one explain v.13 and 39? It says they didn't receive the things promised when they died. That would mean they didn't get to heaven, if heaven was the focus. But the whole chapter refers to the New Jerusalem (Rev 21) which, in context, is about reward in eternity.
What else is truly significant?Pick out any warning, and try to show where in any of those passages the warning is about loss of salvation.
If they return to being servants of satan they will not be saved?Yes, there are. So?
You say: To "reap" eternal life refers to the blessings and reward beyond just entering heaven, but Paul only mentions eternal life very specifically, so this is something you have added to that verse?I believe I have already addressed this, but I'm happy to do so again. To "reap" eternal life refers to the blessings and reward beyond just entering heaven. Jesus noted as much in Jn 10:10, when He said that He would die for everyone (the sheep) so that they may have life (salvation) and have it MORE ABUNDANTLY (rewards).
It is not being revered, but is being given up, the individual still has free will.At that point, the die is cast. He HAS become a new creature, born again, a child of God. Where does Scripture teach that these are reversible or forfeited?
What future blessings and rewards have any significance in comparison to eternal life with God?I've NEVER said any of the warnings are insignificant. They are ALL highly significant. When God warns, we better pay attention. But one must have the discernment to understand that eternal life is irrevocable, and the warnings about about loss of future blessings and reward.
Can you describe the benefit of your free will?Yep. But that is not relevant to the issue of eternal security. No believer holds on to their salvation by free will, and no one loses it by free will.
OKI said this: "Biblical election is being chosen for special privilege and service. Not salvation." That is clear enough. God choses people for special privilege and service. And this includes unbelievers. Here are the 6 categories of election that I have found in Scripture:
1. Election of Christ: Isa 42:1 "Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold; My chosen one in whom My soul delights. I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations.
Matt 12:18 "Behold, My Servant whom I have chosen; My Beloved in whom My soul is well-pleased; I will put My Spirit upon Him, And He shall proclaim justice to the Gentiles.
Luke 9:35 And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!"
Luke 23:35 And the people stood by, looking on. And even the rulers were sneering at Him, saying, "He saved others; let Him save Himself if this is the Christ of God, His Chosen One.
1 Peter 2:6 For this is contained in Scripture: "Behold I lay in Zion a choice stone, a precious corner stone, And he who believes in Him shall not be disappointed."
2. Election of Israel: Amos 3:2 "You only have I chosen among all the families of the earth; Therefore, I will punish you for all your iniquities."
Deut 7:6 "For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.
Where the angels that followed satan also elected?3. Election of Angels: 1 Tim 5:21 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality.
All those in the church were invited to the banquet, but that does not say all those that did not decide to go to the banquet were not also invited?4. Election of the Church or body of Christ: Eph 1:4a just as He chose us (believers) in Him
OK5. Other elections:
Paul: Acts 9:15 But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel;
Apostles: John 15:16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you , and appointed you, that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask of the Father in My name, He may give to you.
Note that Christ wasn't chosen for salvation, nor the entire people of Israel in the OT. Many did not believe. And we can't say anything about angels because the Bible doesn't give us any details about them and election. And Judas, one of the 12, was chosen, yet was a devil (Jn 6:70).
God has many elections, which includes electing that all that humbly accept His Charity and continue to desire His charity , God will save.Yet, all these categories involve special privilege and service, even Christ.
If Israel did not earn their election, deserve to be born a descendent of Abraham, than how else would you describe their election as being other than a gift?I'm not sure what is being asked. The topic was the "gift" of Rom 11:29 and your contention that 11:29 referred to Israel being chosen as a gift.
Yet, there is no Scripture that refers to Israel's election as a gift; either in Romans or any other book of the Bible.
You are going way too far back. Chapters 9-11 is instruction to the Jewish Christians and Jews in general, which can help the gentiles understand, but going back to chapters 5 and 6 is way too far.The gift of Rom 11:29 refers back to 5:15,16 (justification) and 6:23 (eternal life). That is how context works.
But you say they are still saved?Yes, some have turned away to follow Satan.
Did Christ not tell us what Spiritual Leaders are like by washing feet?I have no use for any attempt to minimize eternal rewards, or to mock them. I think one can to better than that. When the Bible speaks of ruling cities, it doesn't use quotes, which I take as a sign of sarcasm.
In the Millennium and then the eternal state, Christ won't be a servant. He will be the ruling King. I have no idea what is meant by your "spiritual realm" is referring to.
There is nothing in 2 John 8 that suggest different rewards with some only getting a part and others getting a lot more?To be sure, there will be winners and losers in heaven, though it seems very few believers understand that, including most pastors. But 2 Jn 8 is a clear warning about not losing reward. Jesus was clear about that as well.
What makes you joyous and what made Jesus joyous while here on earth and why would the same things not be true in heaven?Which scenario seems better:
to be in heaven but having no position of authority or sharing in the rulership of Christ, or to have a position of authority and sharing in the rulership of Christ?
Some people will say they will be happy just to be near Jesus in heaven. Well, that's quite nice. But guess what: to be near Him, one must have earned a throne on which to sit to be near Him. Because only those who have earned that privilege and reward will be the closest to Him.
So, the point of Hebrews: take your pick. Rewards through works, or not.
There is nothing outwardly that can separate us from God/Christs Love, but that does not mean we are out of control of ourselves and cannot of our own free will choose to walk away. If we walk away we cannot blame anyone else but ourselves.I'd love to hear your thoughts on Rom 8:38. What does "things present nor things future" refer to in that context? Thanks.
Don't make stupid choices.I am not suggesting Esau gave up his salvation to Jacob (that is silly). The Hebrew writer is using this as an analogy for what Christians can do and should not do with their birthright from being Christians.
If that is not the way the analogy is being used by the Hebrew writer than explain the lesson the Hebrew writer is trying to get across to Christians about their birthright?
No.So the Hebrew writer screwed up?
Don't lose your reward by making bad choices. That is the context, not salvation.The analogy could not be better, but it is an analogy and not an exact same example. So explain what lesson the Hebrew writer was trying to get across with the analogy, especially from the context?
The error is treating eternal life like some kind of coin or an object that can be lost, given away, etc. Salvation is so much more than that. It's not accurate to view salvation in the way that your view does. We become actual children of God. Can you give away your status of child to your parents? Of course not.Ro. 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Again we see the gift being eternal life, which means it is truly our possession to do with as we please (we can sell it or give it away, like Esua did with the gift of his birthright).
Since there is no verse anywhere in the Bible that describes the election of Israel as a gift, there is no reason to use that for Rom 11:29. Paul was clear in his letter to the Romans about what he meant by "gift". He defined it clearly.Ro. 11:29 from post 126:
The elect in this passage is referring to blood descendants (Jews) of the patriarchs which were gifted to be Gods chosen people here on earth at least until Christianity came into its fullness (might be up to the destruction of the temple 70 AD).
Right. Election is not about salvation. But the gift of eternal life is irrevocable, according to Paul.In the context (especially of Ro. 9-11) the elect in Ro. 11:29 is not referring to those given salvation, but to the Jews by blood. From what we know: all Jews after Pauls letter did not accept Gods mercy (salvation), so this election could not mean unto salvation.
Except there isn't any verse in the Bible to suggest such a thing. Can one give away their physical relationship to their parents? No.I fully agree: God will not revoke His gift of eternal life or take it back, since it is ours, but that does not keep us from doing other things with our gift like giving it to satan.
I see nothing here of relevancy to what God's gifts are. You've not established that Paul was "thinking" of the election of Israel as a gift. And nowhere is that ever described as a gift.In the context of Ro. 11:29 it is talking about the Jews being descendants of the promise and God not taking that back, but in other place we learn not all Jews are true Jews Ro. 9: 6 It is not as though Gods word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abrahams children. On the contrary, It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are Gods children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abrahams offspring.
Please don't put quotes around reward. The promise of reward is real and promised to every believer who lives an obedient faithful life on earth. And those who don't will forfeit their reward.None of Hebrews 11 suggest these heroes of faith received any greater reward than you, I or anyone that is saved?
This is not relevant to the issue of gifts.We have the indwelling Holy Spirit in this life those before did not have.
Nope. It is not spiritual but physical and real. Rev 21:1 and 2 Pet both are talking about the same thing.As far as Rev. 21 that is a huge topic. Briefly it is talking about the Spiritual Kingdom (the New Jerusalem) that exist today, in very poetic language.
No. Ro 8:38 prevents that.If they return to being servants of satan they will not be saved?
The unbeliever isn't even relevant here. Apples to oranges. The contrast is either having life, or having life more abundantly. Which would you rather have?The Life and the more abundant life is in contrast to what the nonbeliever has.
This isn't about life on this earth. As Heb 11 reveals, many believers suffered greatly. While God was glorified by their work, what were they feeling? They will be rewarded.Yes! Every saved individual gets not only a life, but also gets to be a part of Gods work while here on earth (we have a wonderful objective) and we can actually share in Gods Glory by having God live and work through us and thus as God is glorified in us we share in that glory by our presence.
None of what I listed can be reversed. No verse even suggests such a thing.It is not being revered, but is being given up, the individual still has free will.
The same as the comparison between life and abundant life.What future blessings and rewards have any significance in comparison to eternal life with God?
Huh? Generally we mess up with our choices. I said no one holds their salvation by freewill and no one can lose their salvation by freewill. Your comment doesn't seem relevant to the issue.Can you describe the benefit of your free will?
Apparently not. The Bible describes fallen and elect angels.Where the angels that followed satan also elected?
I prefer how Scripture describes gifts, not how you or I would. And Israel's election is NEVER described as a gift. So, Biblically, one cannot say that Rom 11:29 refers to Israel's election.If Israel did not earn their election, deserve to be born a descendent of Abraham, than how else would you describe their election as being other than a gift?
Context within the letter. That is totally legit. And see where Paul describes what he calls "gift".You are going way too far back. Chapters 9-11 is instruction to the Jewish Christians and Jews in general, which can help the gentiles understand, but going back to chapters 5 and 6 is way too far.
The Bible teaches it. But, please don't forget; there are severe warnings to those of God's children to disobey. Ain't purty.But you say they are still saved?
He was teaching humility among His disciples.Did Christ not tell us what Spiritual Leaders are like by washing feet?
I believe the verse is quite clear about not losing what was worked for.There is nothing in 2 John 8 that suggest different rewards with some only getting a part and others getting a lot more?
I think it's sad how many believers have no understanding of this. It should be obvious that Satan doesn't want God's children to know about it.Wow, winners and losers in heaven, how?
Your response doesn't address my question.What makes you joyous and what made Jesus joyous while here on earth and why would the same things not be true in heaven?
Of course. And I know what awaits those who live this way.Does your greatest joy not come from sacrificially unconditionally serving others?
To clarify once again; yes, believers can become rebellious, just like natural children in this world. But There is nothing in Rom 8:38 to differentiate what is "outward" vs "inward", as you've tried to suggest.There is nothing outwardly that can separate us from God/Christs Love, but that does not mean we are out of control of ourselves and cannot of our own free will choose to walk away.
Sure, for loss of significant reward. We are always accountable for our actions.If we walk away we cannot blame anyone else but ourselves.
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