Refuting Calvin's TULIP

[Winken]

Winken: “OT (Hebrew Bible) scripture is not applicable when discussing eternal salvation for the confessing Christian.”




Really? Maybe you could explain why the Gospels so frequently quote the Old Testament. Are you aware that some chapters of Romans quote five Psalms?

Here's an excerpt from an authoritative source.


“First position is given the individual lament psalms, towhich the apostle refers or alludes eleven times, and include Psalms 5 (Rom 3:13a); 10 (Rom3:14); 14 (Rom 3:10-12); 22 (Rom 5:5); 36 (Rom 3:18); 51 (Rom 3:4c); 69 (Rom 11:9 and 15:3); 140 (Rom 3:13b) and 143 (Rom 3:20). References or allusions to individual thanksgiving songs assume second position. To these the apostle makes six references, and they include Psalm 18
(Rom 15:9); 32 (Rom 4:7-8); 110 (1 Cor 15:25 and Rom 8:34); 116 (Rom 3:4a), and 117 (Rom
15:11). The apostle refers or alludes twice to community or national laments (Ps 44 in Rom 8:36, and Ps 106 in Rom 1:23); twice to “wisdom” or didactic Psalms (112 in 2 Cor 9:9, and 119 in 2
Cor 6:11), and twice to psalms of trust, whether of the individual (62 in Rom 2:6), or of the
community (125 in Gal 6:16). Finally, Paul refers twice to a “mixed” psalm (94 in 1 Cor 3:20
and Rom 11:1-2).”



Link:
http://wordandworld.luthersem.edu/content/pdfs/5-2_Psalms/5-2_Harrisville.pdf

Those are informative. How many of them are imperatives for Christians, today? How many of them do we have to obey?

 

[RC1970]

** I am going to have to get some of my Buddies on the baptist page to come help me out here lot of arminians here lol

The are a lot of Pelagians as well.

You are doing an excellent job Andy!

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

Why do you keep ignoring the words of the bible?



Romans 5
18Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

John 12:32
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.

1 Cor 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

If Christ died for ALL, then ALL human beings on the planet will be in heaven - So this is obviously not the case!

There was a group of people whom Christ died for, his death was specifically for those people

But no, Christ did not die for everyone. He died for his sheep, who hear his voice and follow him. The ones whos name is written in the Lambs Book of Life.

Your way Christ did not know who he died for

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

The bible is quite clear, as I've already proven, that all men have been made alive in Christ, that Christ draws all men to himself, and that God wants all men to be saved.

Your words are not in the bible.

My words are not my own but of His who came and died for his sheep. His sheep hear his voice and follow him.

In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 2 Cor 4:4

Non believers are blinded from the Gospel and can not come to Christ unless God gives them a heart of flesh and opens their eyes, and ears to see and hear!

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

The are a lot of Pelagians as well.

You are doing an excellent job Andy!

Thank you! That means a lot

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

I see your point to some degree, however none of us know 1000% that God exists until we meet Him after death. All of our belief is by faith. And faith is what is needed for salvation.

Now do we see hope in God? Do we long for things we hope for, because I believe that is what the Bible calls faith.

And... Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God. So hearing the Word of God is what draws us to faith. We believe in what the Lord has told us is true, we have faith.

The Bible does not say faith comes by the Holy Spirit. The BIble says faith comes by hearing the Word of God.

Romans 10:16-18
6 But not all of them welcomed the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?” 17 Consequently, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. 18 But I ask, did they not hear? Indeed they did: “Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.”

Romans 1:19-20
19 For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse. 21For although they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him, but they became futile in their thinking and darkened in their foolish hearts.

Thank you! I am glad you see my view

This verse explains my response to your well constructed post.

In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 2 Cor 4:4

So what I am saying, which I think you are starting to see, yes faith comes by hearing the Word of God, but the unregenerated man can not see or understand Christ, hes blinded from the Gospel. God must open/save/initiate in order for him to be able to believe/have faith

The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 1 Cor 2:14

 

[Thursday]

If Christ died for ALL, then ALL human beings on the planet will be in heaven - So this is obviously not the case!

Wrong. Christ died for all. Some will reject the free gift of grace. This is not God's fault.

 

[Thursday]

My words are not my own but of His who came and died for his sheep. His sheep hear his voice and follow him.

In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 2 Cor 4:4

Non believers are blinded from the Gospel and can not come to Christ unless God gives them a heart of flesh and opens their eyes, and ears to see and hear!

God wants all men to be saved. Jesus draws all men to himself.

If a man chooses to reject God's grace it is no God's fault.

You want to turn God into a monster who chooses to create some men with no future but eternal torture. Is that who you believe God is?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Thank you! I am glad you see my view

This verse explains my response to your well constructed post.

In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 2 Cor 4:4

So what I am saying, which I think you are starting to see, yes faith comes by hearing the Word of God, but the unregenerated man can not see or understand Christ, hes blinded from the Gospel. God must open/save/initiate in order for him to be able to believe/have faith

The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 1 Cor 2:14

Not really, because faith is not knowing. Faith is the belief in something that we cannot see. Faith in the Bible is in the things hoped for.

God has said it Romans that He has revealed Himself to the world through all of creation. That is the verse that I gave earlier. There is no doubt that He has shown us through all that has been created that He is God, so how then can Satan be blinding unbelievers, yet God's Word is the only thing that brings faith by hearing?

Are you saying then that Satan has more power to prevent belief than Gods Word has to give faith by hearing the Word of God?

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

Not really, because faith is not knowing. Faith is the belief in something that we cannot see. Faith in the Bible is in the things hoped for.

God has said it Romans that He has revealed Himself to the world through all of creation. That is the verse that I gave earlier. There is no doubt that He has shown us through all that has been created that He is God, so how then can Satan be blinding unbelievers, yet God's Word is the only thing that brings faith by hearing?

Are you saying then that Satan has more power to prevent belief than Gods Word has to give faith by hearing the Word of God?

a) satan is the ruler of this world. (has nothing to do with anything I am saying)
b) The Lord's sheep hear his voice and follow him,
c) Those who do not come to him, are not his sheep, his sheep will come to Him.

John 10:26 - But you do not believe because you do not belong to my sheep

Only the sheep that belong to him will come, therefore not everyone is saved, and Jesus dies for his sheep

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

God wants all men to be saved. Jesus draws all men to himself.

If a man chooses to reject God's grace it is no God's fault.

You want to turn God into a monster who chooses to create some men with no future but eternal torture. Is that who you believe God is?

John 10:26 - But you do not believe because you do not belong to my sheep

The call is to all, but only his sheep hear and follow him, this message Jesus gave was very exclusive!

Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you are unable to accept My message. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, John 8:44

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

Wrong. Christ died for all. Some will reject the free gift of grace. This is not God's fault.

If he died for all, all would be in heaven, that isn't the case.

If he died for hilter, and if hilter never repented or accepted Christ, would that make sense?

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

Not really, because faith is not knowing. Faith is the belief in something that we cannot see. Faith in the Bible is in the things hoped for.

God has said it Romans that He has revealed Himself to the world through all of creation. That is the verse that I gave earlier. There is no doubt that He has shown us through all that has been created that He is God, so how then can Satan be blinding unbelievers, yet God's Word is the only thing that brings faith by hearing?

Are you saying then that Satan has more power to prevent belief than Gods Word has to give faith by hearing the Word of God?

Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God." John 8:7

Even if the call is to all, only his people hear his voice and follow him, those are the "elect or sheep"

 

[Thursday]

John 10:26 - But you do not believe because you do not belong to my sheep

The call is to all, but only his sheep hear and follow him, this message Jesus gave was very exclusive!

Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you are unable to accept My message. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, John 8:44

The Sheep hear his voice AND follow. Sin separates us from God. Sin can keep us from accepting God's grace.

Do believe that a man reaps what he sows?

 

[Thursday]

If he died for all, all would be in heaven, that isn't the case.

If he died for hilter, and if hilter never repented or accepted Christ, would that make sense?

Wrong. Jesus died for all, but he doesn't force us to come to him.

He illustrates this perfectly here:

Matt 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling!

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

The Sheep hear his voice AND follow. Sin separates us from God. Sin can keep us from accepting God's grace.

Do believe that a man reaps what he sows?

A man reaps what he sows does not apply to salvation, if it did then that is a works based salvation.

Salvation applies to things such as this:

If I over eat and stop exercising I will get unhealthy and maybe sick even

I reaped what I sowed.

If Jesus paid for that persons sin, then that person is or will be declared righteous by God, they were an enemy of God, but became a child of God.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

Wrong. Jesus died for all, but he doesn't force us to come to him.

He illustrates this perfectly here:

Matt 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling!

Jesus said my sheep hear my voice and they follow me.

He didn't say its up to them to follow him, THEY FOLLOW HIM, because they belong to Him

The unwilling in your verse were non believers and not part of the sheep

 

[Thursday]

A man reaps what he sows does not apply to salvation, if it did then that is a works based salvation.

Do you see what you are doing? You are saying: The truth is what I believe, so if the bible says something different I can just ignore it.

Read this with an open mind and tell me it is not about salvation:

Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

 

[Thursday]

Jesus said my sheep hear my voice and they follow me.

He didn't say its up to them to follow him, THEY FOLLOW HIM, because they belong to Him

The unwilling in your verse were non believers and not part of the sheep

The point of the verse I posted is that Jesus wanted them to come to him, but they were unwilling. How can you be so blind to this? You are very deeply entrenched in your dogma.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

Wrong. Jesus died for all, but he doesn't force us to come to him.

He illustrates this perfectly here:

Matt 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling!

He was talking to Israel, Israel rejected the

Do you see what you are doing? You are saying: The truth is what I believe, so if the bible says something different I can just ignore it.

Read this with an open mind and tell me it is not about salvation:

Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

Okay I will tell you this, I can not comment on Galations 6 for now, I will look into this more