Refuting Calvin's TULIP

[Samson Reaper]

Hey I would be happy to do that,

I will read it and get back to you soon,

When I said your going off topic, that is because you did say If I actually read the bible, which I probably. (That was off topic to what we were discussing. I think you said something along those lines, I would have to go back)

No worries. Don't bother going back.
I am not a Calvinist yet Spurgeon 1516 is my all time favourite.

Cheers.

 

[Thursday]

You are adding on to scripture. Scripture says that He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins when we repent. The last sentence is your addition.

I agree completely.

Will he forgive for sins we commit without repenting?

Heb 10
26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

At risk of bombarding this thread - apologies.

But define dead. The saved elect are supposed to be DEAD to sin. Yet they still continue to sin.

So What is Dead; either in sin or dead to sin ?

Be blessed all.

Lazarus was dead, He must have been brought to life, in order to hear Jesus say "Lazarus come out"'

We are dead in our sins, without the Holy Spirit, we can not see or understand the things of God, The Holy Spirit starts a work in us in order for us to be able to hear and come to Him.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

I agree completely.

Will he forgive for sins we commit without repenting?

Heb 10
26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

No, you can not lose your salvation, see the below:


Having turned his back on the truth, and with full knowledge choosing to willfully and continually sin, the apostate is then beyond salvation because he has rejected the one true sacrifice for sins: the Lord Jesus Christ. If Christ’s sacrifice is rejected, then all hope of salvation is gone. To turn away willfully from this sacrifice leaves no sacrifice; it leaves only sin, the penalty for which is eternal death. This passage is not speaking of a believer who falls away, but rather someone who may claim to be a believer, but truly is not. Anyone who apostatizes is proving he never had genuine faith to begin with (1 John 2:19).

Got Questions

 

[Thursday]

We are dead in our sins, without the Holy Spirit, we can not see or understand the things of God, The Holy Spirit starts a work in us in order for us to be able to hear and come to Him.

All have been made alive in Christ.

He stands at the door and knocks. We choose whether to invite him in and remain with him or to reject him.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

All have been made alive in Christ.

He stands at the door and knocks. We choose whether to invite him in and remain with him or to reject him.

You are not alive until you are saved!

You are a dead and unregenerate slave to sin before you get saved.

Only his sheep hear his voice and follow him, only his sheep accept and follow him.

 

[Thursday]

No, you can not lose your salvation, see the below:


Having turned his back on the truth, and with full knowledge choosing to willfully and continually sin, the apostate is then beyond salvation because he has rejected the one true sacrifice for sins: the Lord Jesus Christ. If Christ’s sacrifice is rejected, then all hope of salvation is gone. To turn away willfully from this sacrifice leaves no sacrifice; it leaves only sin, the penalty for which is eternal death. This passage is not speaking of a believer who falls away, but rather someone who may claim to be a believer, but truly is not. Anyone who apostatizes is proving he never had genuine faith to begin with (1 John 2:19).

Got Questions

Your dogma contradicts God's word.

2 Peter 2:20
If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.

John 15
5“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

Romans 11:22
Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

 

[Thursday]

You are not alive until you are saved!

You are a dead and unregenerate slave to sin before you get saved.

Only his sheep hear his voice and follow him, only his sheep accept and follow him.

More words from you that contradict the bible:

1 Cor 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

John 12:32
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.


All are drawn to Christ, but his sheep hear his voice AND follow.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

More words from you that contradict the bible:

1 Cor 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

John 12:32
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.


All are drawn to Christ, but his sheep hear his voice AND follow.

All people are Jew and Gentile alike

 

[Thursday]

All people are Jew and Gentile alike

What other kind of people are there other than Jews and Gentiles?

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

Your dogma contradicts God's word.

2 Peter 2:20
If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.

John 15
5“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

Romans 11:22
Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

the people who are cut off never were apart of the vine, because He who began a good work in you will complete it

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

What other kind of people are there other than Jews and Gentiles?

Brother Jewish people were the chosen people of God, God opened salvation to the Gentiles

 

[Thursday]

the people who are cut off never were apart of the vine, because He who began a good work in you will complete it

How can you cut something from the vine if it wasn't part of the vine? You are grasping at straws. The bible is full of warnings for you and you are not wise to ignore them.

 

[Thursday]

Brother Jewish people were the chosen people of God, God opened salvation to the Gentiles

No kidding. The phrase Jews and Gentiles means ALL PEOPLE. Gentile means non Jew.

Your point doesn't change the meaning of the passage one bit.

1 Cor 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

John 12:32
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

How can you cut something from the vine if it wasn't part of the vine? You are grasping at straws. The bible is full of warnings for you and you are not wise to ignore them.

If He who began a good work in you will complete it If you are a believer you will stay a believer, he started a work he will finish it.

You aren't cutting anything off because he was never part of the vine.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

No kidding. The phrase Jews and Gentiles means ALL PEOPLE. Gentile means non Jew.

Your point doesn't change the meaning of the passage one bit.

1 Cor 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

John 12:32
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.

I will draw all people Jews and Gentiles - not every single person on the planet

 

[Thursday]

If He who began a good work in you will complete it If you are a believer you will stay a believer, he started a work he will finish it.

You aren't cutting anything off because he was never part of the vine.

Here's what the bible says:

John 15
. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.4Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

5“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.8This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

9“As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

 

[Thursday]

I will draw all people Jews and Gentiles - not every single person on the planet

Every single person on the planet is a Jew or a Gentile.

Who do you claim Jesus is not drawing to himself?

1 Tim 2
3This is good and pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved andto come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

Here's what the bible says:

John 15
. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.4Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

5“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.8This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

9“As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

Thank you for helping me sharpen my verses brother!
Please see below MacArthur's brilliant explanation of John 15

The metaphor in John 15 is of a vine and its branches. The vine is the source and sustenance of life for the branches, and the branches must abide in the vine to live and bear fruit. Jesus, of course, is the vine, and the branches are people. While it is obvious the fruit-bearing branches represent true Christians, the identity of the fruitless ones is in question. Some Bible students say the barren branches are Christians who bear no spiritual fruit. Others believe they are non-Christians. As always, however, we must look to the context for the best answer.

The true meaning of the metaphor is made clear when we consider the characters in that night's drama. The disciples were with Jesus. He had loved them to the uttermost; He had comforted them with the words in John chapter 14. The Father was foremost in His thoughts, because He was thinking of the events of the next day. But He was also aware of someone else—the betrayer. Judas had been dismissed from the fellowship when he rejected Jesus' final appeal of love.

All the characters of the drama were in the mind of Jesus. He saw the eleven, whom He loved deeply and passionately. He was aware of the Father, with whom He shared an infinite love. And He must have grieved over Judas, whom He had loved unconditionally.

All those characters play a part in Jesus' metaphor. The vine is Christ; the vinedresser is the Father. The fruit-bearing branches represent the eleven and all true disciples of the church age. The fruitless branches represent Judas and all those who never were true disciples.

Jesus had long been aware of the difference between Judas and the eleven. After washing the disciples' feet, He said, "'He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.' For He knew the one who was betraying Him; for this reason He said, 'Not all of you are clean'" (John 13:10-11). Once a person is forgiven by God, he is clean and does not need the bathing of forgiveness again. All that is necessary is to clean the dust and dirt of daily sins from his feet.

His point was that a child of God who commits a sin doesn't need to be saved again; he needs only to restore his personal relationship with the Father. But Judas had not even been "bathed," because he was not a child of God, and Jesus knew it. That is why He added, "not all of you are clean." Judas appeared to be like the other disciples. He was with Jesus for the same amount of time—he had even been given the responsibility of keeping the money. It appeared that he was a branch in the vine like the others—but he never bore real fruit. God finally removed that branch from the vine, and it was burned.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

Every single person on the planet is a Jew or a Gentile.

Who do you claim Jesus is not drawing to himself?

1 Tim 2
3This is good and pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved andto come to the knowledge of the truth.

Of course God desires all men to come to him, but not all will. Because we have a fallen sinful nature and are unable to understand or see the things of God