Refuting Calvin's TULIP

[PrettyboyAndy]

Salvation comes to those who cooperate with God's grace. This directly contradicts Reformed dogma.

a) Salvation is from the Lord,
b) Dead in their sins, slaves to sin, unregenerated peoples without the Holy Spirit cannot cooperate because they are blind and deaf without the Spirit they can not see or understand

 

[ToBeLoved]

a) satan is the ruler of this world. (has nothing to do with anything I am saying)
b) The Lord's sheep hear his voice and follow him,
c) Those who do not come to him, are not his sheep, his sheep will come to Him.

John 10:26 - But you do not believe because you do not belong to my sheep

Only the sheep that belong to him will come, therefore not everyone is saved, and Jesus dies for his sheep

The point is that God has revealed Himself to all people or called all people through creation itself. All of life and all of creation Romans says testifies of God so that no one can say they are innocent.

So if the call by the Father is creation itself which has been shown to all people through their life and the entire world around them, how can Calvinists say that all men's sins Christ has not died for? It says all men are without excuse.

Romans 1:19-21
19 For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him, but they became futile in their thinking and darkened in their foolish hearts.

So how is it then that Jesus could only die for some if the Father revealed Himself to ALL

 

[Thursday]

Matthew Henry - 1 Cor 5:22

All that are by faith united to Christ, are by his resurrection assured of their own. As through the sin of the first Adam, all men became mortal, because all had from him the same sinful nature, so, through the resurrection of Christ, shall all who are made to partake of the Spirit, and the spiritual nature, revive, and live for ever.

All who are to be believers, not every person, then everyone would have the Holy Spirit of God

That's what you and Matthew Henry say, but that's not what the bible says. It seems you are trying to conform scripture to your dogma.

 

[Thursday]

a) Salvation is from the Lord,
b) Dead in their sins, slaves to sin, unregenerated peoples without the Holy Spirit cannot cooperate because they are blind and deaf without the Spirit they can not see or understand

That is your dogma talking. The bible says that God's grace has appeared to all men, that he wants all men to be saved, that Jesus is drawing all men to himself, and that we must do more than just see and understand to be saved.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

That is your dogma talking. The bible says that God's grace has appeared to all men, that he wants all men to be saved, that Jesus is drawing all men to himself, and that we must do more than just see and understand to be saved.

If Faith is a gift from God, and the natural man cannot see or hear without the spirit, how can he get saved?

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

That is your dogma talking. The bible says that God's grace has appeared to all men, that he wants all men to be saved, that Jesus is drawing all men to himself, and that we must do more than just see and understand to be saved.

No my brother in Christ,

The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 1 Corinthians 2:14, I think I just won this debate

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

The point is that God has revealed Himself to all people or called all people through creation itself. All of life and all of creation Romans says testifies of God so that no one can say they are innocent.

So if the call by the Father is creation itself which has been shown to all people through their life and the entire world around them, how can Calvinists say that all men's sins Christ has not died for? It says all men are without excuse.

Romans 1:19-21
19 For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him, but they became futile in their thinking and darkened in their foolish hearts.

So how is it then that Jesus could only die for some if the Father revealed Himself to ALL

Thank you for your well though and clear post,

Please consider the following verse:

The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 1 Corinthians 2:14

 

[ToBeLoved]

Thank you for your well though and clear post,

Please consider the following verse:

The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 1 Corinthians 2:14

This is about unbelievers not understanding spiritual truths revealed to US because we have the Holy Spirit. After we are saved. When Christians speak of spiritual things revealed to Us by the Spirit. Not presalvation.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

This is about unbelievers not understanding spiritual truths revealed to US because we have the Holy Spirit. After we are saved. When Christians speak of spiritual things revealed to Us by the Spirit. Not presalvation.

Okay understood, but how does the Pre Salvation Non Believer turn into a believer if he can not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

They would not be able to unless God changes their heart, initiates salvation, that is the sovereignty of God even in salvation

 

[Yahu_]

I have... At the authors request... Shared this article in full..

T = TOTAL INABILITY (Called in Calvinism, Total Depravity, but actually taught as the Total Inability of man to choose Truth. The Calvinist plays many such word games. The Word of God teaches that God created man with the ability to reason, choose, and receive Truth.):

I guess Calvinists think Adam ate from the tree of evil, verses the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

 

[Yahu_]

I have... At the authors request... Shared this article in full..

L = LIMITED ATONEMENT (Calvinism teaches that Christ died only for the elect, but the Bible teaches that He died for all mankind. The reason not all are saved is because they failed to repent and receive the Saviour, not because He didn't provide for their salvation.):

Actually this one point of Calvinism may have some validity. You seem to be forgetting about the Tares in the parable of the wheat and tares. They are the seed of Satan, not the 'seed of the son of man'. They are allowed to exist but are destined for the fire.

The pre-flood nephilim corruption was destroyed by the flood. 2 Pet 2:4 references those angels as being cast down to Tartarus. This is the only occurrence of Tartarus in scripture and is a Greek reference to the lowest hell that is the prison of the immortal titans of the previous age so Peter is equating those as the Gen 6 angels that sinned.

Yet Genesis also references that there were also giants 'after that' and they existed in the land of Canaan during the time of Moses. Jude also references those angels that sinned and equates it to the story out of Enoch.

In Revelation, we have four other angels bound that get let loose from the Euphrates. They were not bound in Tartarus with the others. IMO those four angels also fell into error but after the flood and were bound at the Babel rebellion for the creation of additional Nephilim offspring, the source of the ancient paganism.

So the question remains, can someone that is a 'seed of Satan' that is allowed to stay in the field be saved? Is redemption available for human hybrids that were conceived in direct violation of Yah's law?

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

Actually this one point of Calvinism may have some validity. You seem to be forgetting about the Tares in the parable of the wheat and tares. They are the seed of Satan, not the 'seed of the son of man'. They are allowed to exist but are destined for the fire.

The pre-flood nephilim corruption was destroyed by the flood. 2 Pet 2:4 references those angels as being cast down to Tartarus. This is the only occurrence of Tartarus in scripture and is a Greek reference to the lowest hell that is the prison of the immortal titans of the previous age so Peter is equating those as the Gen 6 angels that sinned.

Yet Genesis also references that there were also giants 'after that' and they existed in the land of Canaan during the time of Moses. Jude also references those angels that sinned and equates it to the story out of Enoch.

In Revelation, we have four other angels bound that get let loose from the Euphrates. They were not bound in Tartarus with the others. IMO those four angels also fell into error but after the flood and were bound at the Babel rebellion for the creation of additional Nephilim offspring, the source of the ancient paganism.

So the question remains, can someone that is a 'seed of Satan' that is allowed to stay in the field be saved? Is redemption available for human hybrids that were conceived in direct violation of Yah's law?

I am led to believe that salvation is only for humans.

Are you asking about salvation being offered to the offspring of fallen angels interbreeding with the human females in genesis 6?

 

[Yahu_]

I believe in the seven churches as seven congregations...

Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the Circumcision, Peter
Smyrna - Martyr - Beginning with the Apostle to the Un-Circumcision, Paul
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Beginning with DL Moody, the first to make money off of ministry

Actually, I see the seven churches as a maturity scale with 7 problems and 7 rewards for overcoming. Yes each individual or the majority of a denomination may fall into the same error that the individual in the congregation needs to overcome to gain the reward.

The rewards range from least to greatest, eating of the tree of life which lines the city streets to sharing the throne room with a position of authority. The errors and rewards are progressive.

I agree that the Laodicean church is misusing spiritual gifts for personal gain. The error of the Philadelphian church is 'lack of strength' to gain the power gifts offered behind the treasure room door opened by the key of the house of David, Isa 22:22. So they have good works, good doctrine but lack strength while the Laodicean church has overcome that error but misuses those gifts.

I wouldn't equate Calvinists with Sardis though. Sardis is the worldly church without 'robes of righteousness'. I would equate them with the error of Ephesus, they lack love and if they don't overcome that error they won't even be allowed to enter through the inner gates of the heavenly city but be limited to what I call the 'ghetto apartments' on the outer wall.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

 

[Dale]

Matthew 26:24
John 17:12

Blessings!

I pointed out that Judas lost his salvation.

Is that supposed to be a reply?

As far as I can tell, you are trying to say that Judas is an exception to the rule.
If that is what you mean I wish you would say so.
How many exceptions do you have to make for your dogma to work out?

 

[Yahu_]

I am led to believe that salvation is only for humans.

Are you asking about salvation being offered to the offspring of fallen angels interbreeding with the human females in genesis 6?

In Gen 6 and 'also after that'. There was a 2nd incursion of Nephilim corruption post-flood, the source of the giants and mighty men post-flood. It was the reason for the orders to exterminate certain Canaanite bloodlines.

The Canaanite religion was based on sex with angels to produce the gods. Numbers equates that with sex with the Watchers in the reference to the 'field of Zophim' on Mt Pisgah. Pisgah is a sexual reference with the goddess Asherah and Zophim is Hebrew for Watchers that plant their seed in her field, a Hebrew idiom for the womb.

So the question, is salvation available to those of corrupted bloodlines that exist in the world today? Those bloodlines were not exterminated.

 

[Winken]

I pointed out that Judas lost his salvation.

Is that supposed to be a reply?

As far as I can tell, you are trying to say that Judas is an exception to the rule.
If that is what you mean I wish you would say so.
How many exceptions do you have to make for your dogma to work out?

Judas was a Jew. He was not a Christian. He had fallen from the security of the Abrahamic Covenant. He did not proclaim Jesus as the promised Jewish Messiah. In fact, he rejected Jesus as such, which was blasphemy. He died (or killed himself) prior to the advent of the Cross, leaving him with no hope. Salvation by Grace through Faith was not available to him.

 

[Thursday]

If Faith is a gift from God, and the natural man cannot see or hear without the spirit, how can he get saved?

Grace is God's gift to all men, even you. If you choose to reject this gift and turn to a life of unrepentant sin, do you think you will go to heaven?

 

[Thursday]

No my brother in Christ,

The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 1 Corinthians 2:14, I think I just won this debate

You keep spinning in circles. You deny that God's grace has appeared to all men, that Christ is drawing all men to himself, and that all have been made alive in Christ.

Now the ball is in our court.

Your dogma could lead many to Hell through creating a feeling of presumption and entitlement in some and a feeling of hopelessness and despair in others. It is not of God.

 

[Thursday]

a) Salvation is from the Lord,
b) Dead in their sins, slaves to sin, unregenerated peoples without the Holy Spirit cannot cooperate because they are blind and deaf without the Spirit they can not see or understand

God shows no favoritism. All have the opportunity to accept his grace.

Acts 10
34Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

In Gen 6 and 'also after that'. There was a 2nd incursion of Nephilim corruption post-flood, the source of the giants and mighty men post-flood. It was the reason for the orders to exterminate certain Canaanite bloodlines.

The Canaanite religion was based on sex with angels to produce the gods. Numbers equates that with sex with the Watchers in the reference to the 'field of Zophim' on Mt Pisgah. Pisgah is a sexual reference with the goddess Asherah and Zophim is Hebrew for Watchers that plant their seed in her field, a Hebrew idiom for the womb.

So the question, is salvation available to those of corrupted bloodlines that exist in the world today? Those bloodlines were not exterminated.

I don't see why they wouldn't if they still exist today.