Refuting Calvin's TULIP

[Hank77]

Can someone explain to me why the Calvinist DOES want to, as Spurgeon says "commit so great a crime" and be so inconstant with the text - changing 'all' to NOT all'"

I don't get why they want to do this - shooting themselves in the foot.

Which number sermon is this of Spurgeon's, or please post the link. Thanks

 

[Samson Reaper]

Which number sermon is this of Spurgeon's, or please post the link. Thanks

Sermon 1516

http://www.spurgeongems.org/vols25-27/chs1516.pdf

1516. Salvation By Knowing The Truth


Salvation By Knowing The Truth | The Charles Spurgeon Sermon Collection

 

[Hank77]

Sermon 1516

http://www.spurgeongems.org/vols25-27/chs1516.pdf

1516. Salvation By Knowing The Truth


Salvation By Knowing The Truth | The Charles Spurgeon Sermon Collection

Thanks a bunch!

 

[Samson Reaper]

Thanks a bunch!

No problem. Do a bit of googling and no doubt you will find loads of discussions such as "does the word 'all' mean 'all' all the time" ( as in the entire human race ).

I think the correct answer is no, it depends on the context of the passage where it is used. E.g In addition to Spurgeon's sermon Romans 5:18
"Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people."

Does the word 'all' mean the same in both instances ? I would agree with this who's say it obviously does. In the same context - 2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

we have the words 'any' and 'all' to make the point abundantly clear.

That some perish even though, as Holy writ say - the Lord does not wish/will this, does this make God not sovereign ? No, as pointed out by many theologians, including Spurgeon, there are different types of God's will. E.g Decretive will: This is the puppet show - let there be light, and there could not be any thing else but light. God's decretive will is poles apart from God'd permissive will. The Bible is stuffed with if/then/else scenarios. God permits man's free will and is more Sovereign because of it.

 

[Truthfrees]

MOD HAT

Posts have been removed for flaming and going off topic by discussing each other rather than the OP topic.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

No problem. Do a bit of googling and no doubt you will find loads of discussions such as "does the word 'all' mean 'all' all the time" ( as in the entire human race ).

I think the correct answer is no, it depends on the context of the passage where it is used. E.g In addition to Spurgeon's sermon Romans 5:18
"Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people."

Does the word 'all' mean the same in both instances ? I would agree with this who's say it obviously does. In the same context - 2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

we have the words 'any' and 'all' to make the point abundantly clear.

That some perish even though, as Holy writ say - the Lord does not wish/will this, does this make God not sovereign ? No, as pointed out by many theologians, including Spurgeon, there are different types of God's will. E.g Decretive will: This is the puppet show - let there be light, and there could not be any thing else but light. God's decretive will is poles apart from God'd permissive will. The Bible is stuffed with if/then/else scenarios. God permits man's free will and is more Sovereign because of it.

That simply is not true,

Now in those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus, that a census be taken of all the inhabited earth. This was the first census taken while Quirinius was governor of Syria. Luke 2:2

Every person alive was to be taken for the census?

An example, you attended a party, someone asks you who went to the party, you said, everyone was there. - That doesn't mean every person without exception.

All means Jew and Gentile

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

No problem. Do a bit of googling and no doubt you will find loads of discussions such as "does the word 'all' mean 'all' all the time" ( as in the entire human race ).

I think the correct answer is no, it depends on the context of the passage where it is used. E.g In addition to Spurgeon's sermon Romans 5:18
"Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people."

Does the word 'all' mean the same in both instances ? I would agree with this who's say it obviously does. In the same context - 2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

we have the words 'any' and 'all' to make the point abundantly clear.

That some perish even though, as Holy writ say - the Lord does not wish/will this, does this make God not sovereign ? No, as pointed out by many theologians, including Spurgeon, there are different types of God's will. E.g Decretive will: This is the puppet show - let there be light, and there could not be any thing else but light. God's decretive will is poles apart from God'd permissive will. The Bible is stuffed with if/then/else scenarios. God permits man's free will and is more Sovereign because of it.

Lets use John 3 select verses


John 3

You Must Be Born Again
3 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus[a] by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.[c] 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You[d] must be born again.’ 8 The wind[e] blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

9 Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? 11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you[f] do not receive our testimony. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.[g] 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.[h]

For God So Loved the World
16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already,

See brother,

Nicodemus was a RULER OF THE JEWS, to him salvation was only for israel, Jesus is saying I came to give life to the whole World, Jews and Gentiles alike!

 

[98cwitr]

@2 Peter 3:9: "all" means "all (or any) of you"...aka, the elect:

See original greek:

οὐ βραδύνει κύριος τῆς ἐπαγγελίας, ὥς τινες βραδύτητα ἡγοῦνται, ἀλλὰ μακροθυμεῖ εἰς ὑμᾶς, μὴ βουλόμενός τινας ἀπολέσθαι ἀλλὰ πάντας εἰς μετάνοιαν χωρῆσαι.

πᾶς,a \{pas}
1) individually 1a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything 2) collectively 2a) some of all types

More info on "pantas" here: Greek Concordance: πάντας (pantas) -- 90 Occurrences

 

[Rick Otto]

"All men" was certainly not a reference only to Jews, being made by the very Apostle to the gentiles himself -- Paul. The context points to the Truth that "all men" means all human persons who exist... period.

No one said and of course it wasn't, " a reference".
The "very apostle" justified his appointment to the gentiles, IN SPITE OF the common knowledge of the time, that salvation was for only Jews.

THAT constitutes the context whereby "all men" contradicts the "only Jews" paradigm.

I realize of course, emotional attachments can defy the rules of speech and blind us to the facts when they don't affirm a favorite emotional swoon.

 

[Rick Otto]

@2 Peter 3:9: "all" means "all (or any) of you"...aka, the elect:

See original greek:

οὐ βραδύνει κύριος τῆς ἐπαγγελίας, ὥς τινες βραδύτητα ἡγοῦνται, ἀλλὰ μακροθυμεῖ εἰς ὑμᾶς, μὴ βουλόμενός τινας ἀπολέσθαι ἀλλὰ πάντας εἰς μετάνοιαν χωρῆσαι.

πᾶς,a \{pas}
1) individually 1a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything 2) collectively 2a) some of all types

More info on "pantas" here: Greek Concordance: πάντας (pantas) -- 90 Occurrences

Definition is great, but is ruled by context.
The context was that salvation was only for Jews, so "all men" does not defy that context to mean each and every individual man. It simply stands in contradistinction to what was accepted as truth at the time.

 

[Geralt]

ive read the OP, looks like an intentional write-up like Calvinism vs the Word of God. but then again the definitions are all wrong.

TOTAL INABILITY - is NOT about people not being able to make a choice or exercise their free will. it is not Total Inability but Total depravity. and it is NOT ABSOLUTE depravity but Total depravity. if you want to use the word 'inability' then it is MORAL inability - which means the inability to choose and act righteousness based on God's likeness and law. Roman 3:10

UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION - the only condition for election is God desiring to make an election, which was even before creation began. Conditional election may sound convincing, but it is founded on the presumption that EVERYONE who ever lived KNEW OR HEARD the gospel and was able to MAKE A DECISION for or against christ- which is of course a fantasy best not discussed within the circle of non-calvinists.

i questioned an arminian before if during the first century (at the time of the apostles), people living on the other side of the planet like the chinamen, the aborigines of australia or the natives of ancient america or africa ever heard the gospel and made a decision for christ. they just kept silent about the issue. How can CONDITIONAL ELECTION even make sense if a lot of people died, did not know the gospel nor christ and have not the opportunity to make a decision to secure their salvation? no answer.

LIMITED ATONEMENT - those who aspire the opposite really is too ignorant or have willfully denied the meaning of the atonement sacrificial ritual in the Old Testament and the covenants of God. The atonement sacrifices in the OT was never for the ENTIRE human race but only for the the nation of israel, God's chosen people and their sins. There is no issue really in the words 'ALL' , the 'WORLD', ;everyone', etc in the NT unless of course you read it in parts & isolation, and not how the reformers do it as read in the Total and Whole revelation of Scripture.

thus 'all' means 'all of God's people', world means 'all his elect scattered in the world', etc..

IRRESISTIBLE GRACE & PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS - both really are best described as the work of the Holy Spirit. Notice that all those who disagee with 'irresistable grace' or 'perseverance' will not associate it nor mention the Holy Spirit. simply because all their arguments collapse. their arguments can only carry weight if the supernatural is taken out of the equation, or that the holyspirit has NOT CHANGED the nature of the person, or do not even understand what those CHANGES are if any.

the simple response is this : That IF GOD SAVES PEOPLE, HE ALSO CHANGES THEM.

that 'CHANGE' or the 'NEW NATURE' brings about the GREATER DESIRE to love God than the desires of his old nature. since desires affect choices, then God simply becomes "irresistible" because it is the greater desire that brings meaning and pleasure to a persons soul. same thing with persevering which is of course "preserved" as well by the holy spirit.

I have... At the authors request... Shared this article in full..

T = TOTAL INABILITY (Called in Calvinism, Total Depravity, but actually taught as the Total Inability of man to choose Truth. The Calvinist plays many such word games. The Word of God teaches that God created man with the ability to reason, choose, and receive Truth.):
Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Romans 10:17: "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God."
James 1:21: "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and RECEIVE with meekness the engrafted Word, which is able to save your souls."
Isaiah1:18: "Come now, and let us REASON together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool."
Deuteronomy 30:19: "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore CHOOSE LIFE, that both thou and thy seed may live."
Joshua 24:15: "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, CHOOSE you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."
Psalm 119:30, 111, 173: "I have CHOSEN The Way of Truth: Thy Judgments have I laid before me....Thy Testimonies have I taken as an heritage for ever: for They are the rejoicing of my heart....Let Thine hand help me; for I have chosen Thy Precepts."
John 1:12: "But as many as RECEIVED him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name."
2 Timothy 1:12: "...I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have COMMITTED unto him against that day."

U = UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION (Calvinism teaches that God selects those who are to be saved without any condition, but the Bible teaches that there is one condition to salvation: faith.):
1 Peter 1:2: "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ..."
2 Thessalonians 2:13: "...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the Truth.
Luke 7:50: "... Thy faith hath saved thee ..."
Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."

L = LIMITED ATONEMENT (Calvinism teaches that Christ died only for the elect, but the Bible teaches that He died for all mankind. The reason not all are saved is because they failed to repent and receive the Saviour, not because He didn't provide for their salvation.):
Isaiah 53:6: "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us ALL."
1 Timothy 4:10: "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of ALL MEN, specially of those that believe."
1 John 2:2: "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of THE WHOLE WORLD."
Hebrews 2:9: "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that He by the grace of God should taste death for EVERY MAN."
1 Timothy 2:4: "Who will have ALL MEN to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the Truth."

I = IRRESISTIBLE GRACE (Calvinism teaches that God's grace for salvation cannot be resisted, but the Word of God says it can be resisted):
Lamentations 3:35-36: "To turn aside the right of a man before the face of the most High, To subvert a man in his cause, the Lord approveth not."
Matthew 23:37: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and YE WOULD NOT!"
John 5:39-40: "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And YE WILL NOT come to me, that ye might have life."
Acts 7:51: "Ye stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always RESIST the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."
Proverbs 1:24-26: "Because I have called, and YE REFUSED; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded; But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof: I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh."
Proverbs 29:1: "He, that being often reproved HARDENETH HIS NECK, shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy."

P = PERSEVERANCE (The Bible teaches preservation of the saints; not perseverance of the saints):
Jude 1: "... to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and PRESERVED in Jesus Christ..."
1 Thessalonians 5:23-24: "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly: and I pray God your whole spirit and soul, and body be PRESERVED blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it. "
John 10:27-29: "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life: and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Fathers hand."
Colossians 3:3-4: "For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory."
Hebrews 7:25: "Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them."


CONCLUSION:
Calvinism clearly errs from the teaching of the Word of God on all 5 points of it's TULIP. The logical conclusion of Calvinism is that God is an unfair respecter of persons who chooses people to salvation, not according to any standard that He established, but arbitrarily. This strikes at the love and justice of God, contradicts the fact that Christ gave his life for ALL, and rejects man's responsibility to choose and love his Creator.

Proverbs 24:23: "... It is not good to have respect of persons in judgment."
Acts 10:34-35: "... Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth Him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with Him."
John 6:28-29: "... What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? ... This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent.
Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."

Copyright 2002 (c) by author. Readers are encouraged to share this article with others; all copying and distribution of this article must be done in its entirety and must include this notice including the below e-mail address and web site URL:

E-mail: KJV@LandmarkBibleBaptist.net
Calvinism Refuted By Scripture
http://.LandmarkBibleBaptist.net

John Henry

 

[Rick Otto]

Amen

It flabbergasts me that Calvinist will not, it seems CANNOT learn from one of there greatest preachers.


What then? Shall we try to put another meaning into the text than what it fairly bears? I do not think so.

You must, most of you, be acquainted with the general method in which our older Calvinistic friends deal with this text.

“All men,” they say, — “that is, some men”: as if the Holy Spirit could not have said “some men” if he had meant some men.

“All men,” they say; “that is, some of all kinds of men”: as if the Lord could not have said “all kinds of men” if he had meant that.

The Holy Spirit by the apostle has written “all men,” and unquestionably he means all men.

Great public speaker... maybe. Reading comprehension... not so much.

 

[Hammster]

Great public speaker... maybe. Reading comprehension... not so much.

Most times I see Spurgeon quoted in an apparent contradiction to Calvinism it's usually out of context.

 

[LoveofTruth]

You can't lose salvation, once you get it, your sealed with the spirit.

Maybe those individuals were never saved to begin with and therefore are not producing fruit.

Judas was once saved then lost it. Matthew 10 Acts 1 Psalm 69 etc. H was called a sheep of Jesus and given power to cast out devils etc. at one time. Then in time he betrayed Jesus ( went against the trust he once had) .

Here are some more thoughts I wrote on this topic

Judas was saved and then lost his salvation

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Judas was once saved then lost it. Matthew 10 Acts 1 Psalm 69 etc. H was called a sheep of Jesus and given power to cast out devils etc. at one time. Then in time he betrayed Jesus ( went against the trust he once had) .

Here are some more thoughts I wrote on this topic

Judas was saved and then lost his salvation

Yes, your thread covers this topic pretty good.
The following article also helps to bring up some good points in defense of this, as well.

Judas; Once Saved, Forever Lost

May God bless you today, brother;
May we always stay close to Him.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Yes, your thread covers this topic pretty good.
The following article also helps to bring up some good points in defense of this, as well.

Judas; Once Saved, Forever Lost

May God bless you today, brother;
May we always stay close to Him.

God bless brother

its a ongoing sword battle in here

 

[Bible Highlighter]

God bless brother

its a ongoing sword battle in here

Indeed.

 

[TedT]

U = UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION (Calvinism teaches that God selects those who are to be saved without any condition, but the Bible teaches that there is one condition to salvation: faith.):
1 Peter 1:2: "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ..."
2 Thessalonians 2:13: "...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the Truth.
Luke 7:50: "... Thy faith hath saved thee ..."
Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."

Wow, these verses put together this way seem to imply that our faith was before we were chosen before the of foundation of the world.