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Refuting Calvin's TULIP

PrettyboyAndy

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So what is written in the Book of Revelation took place before the earth was created?

If Satan has been cast into the Lake of Fire, then why is he still here? Why have not all been judged already? Seems your timing is off and you have God judging the people born on the earth, before the earth was ever created and Satan got judged too and is now in the Lake of Fire, not prancing around causing havoc, death, pain and misery.

Of course everything was written and planned before hand before the foundation of the earth, you think things just happen and the Sovereign Lord just goes along with the plans of man?!

The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD. Proverbs 16:33
 
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PrettyboyAndy

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Anyone can and does quote scripture out of context.

I do not have a problem with the word of God, thank you. Have you by any chance read it - ALL of it.

I did read the Bible, and your going off topic, The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD. Proverbs 16:33
 
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PrettyboyAndy

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So what is written in the Book of Revelation took place before the earth was created?

If Satan has been cast into the Lake of Fire, then why is he still here? Why have not all been judged already? Seems your timing is off and you have God judging the people born on the earth, before the earth was ever created and Satan got judged too and is now in the Lake of Fire, not prancing around causing havoc, death, pain and misery.

Satan is defeated, there is still a skirmish but the war is over, did the Lord's death go in vain? Did he not defeat satan and overcome death itself on the cross?
 
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PrettyboyAndy

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I guess I am allowed to do a book review. R.C Sproul's -Chosen by God - in summary.
First few chapters: God predestines everything. Even if one electron did its own thing then God would not be Sovereign God, claims Sproul.

The rest:
Though God predestines all things, no he does not ! Man sinned out of his own accord!!! (Sproul avoids free will like the plague).

Conclusion:
Is this a contradiction ? Yes it is. The book is a waste of paper. Save the planet, don't waste good trees on it.

YES PrettyBoy, RC1970, I HAVE read it. All of it.


Typical rudeness and arrogance.


And eyes - to read the word of God. ALL of it rather than build a theology on a limited set of verses.

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PrettyboyAndy

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Ez18:21 “But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die. 22 None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them. Because of the righteous things they have done, they will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign Lord. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

Rather,

For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.” John 6:65

All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. Matthew 11:27
 
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PrettyboyAndy

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Sorry, but the Bible doesn't say that. You only wish it did to validate YOUR beliefs, not God's Word.

You must have missed who Christ died for or convinced yourself your theology exists.

Please read this with an open mind,

When Peter wrote that we are “chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father” (1 Peter 1:1-2), he was not using the word “foreknowledge” to mean that God was aware beforehand who would believe and therefore chose them because of their foreseen faith. Rather, Peter meant that God determined before time to know and love and save them; and He chose them without regard to anything good or bad they might do. Scripture teaches that God’s sovereign choice is made “according to the kind intention of His will” and “according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will”—that is, not for any reason external to Himself. Certainly He did not choose certain sinners to be saved because of something praiseworthy in them, or because He foresaw that they would choose Him. He chose them solely because it pleased Him to do so. God declares “the end from the beginning …saying, ‘My purpose will be established, and I will accomplish all My good pleasure’” (Isa. 46:10). He is not subject to others’ decisions. His purposes for choosing some and rejecting others are hidden in the secret counsels of His own will.

Moreover, everything that exists in the universe exists because God allowed it, decreed it, and called it into existence. “Our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases” (Ps. 115:3). “Whatever the Lord pleases, He does, in heaven and in earth, - John Macarthur
 
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ToBeLoved

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Of course everything was written and planned before hand before the foundation of the earth, you think things just happen and the Sovereign Lord just goes along with the plans of man?!

The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD. Proverbs 16:33
You are answering now a different question than what you said. You said that the things in Rev 20 already happened, but they have not, so the simple fact is you are making statements about something that will occur in the future, not what has already happened.

This is not an issue of God's Sovereignity, this is an issue of saying that a future time in the Biblical timeline has already occured. That is why I told you your timing is way off and asked you if certain things had occured on the earth yet or not.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Rather,

For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.” John 6:65

All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. Matthew 11:27
The problem is your theology about who has been drawn by the Father and how.

Just like no one in Jesus time understood Jesus saying that no one could take His life unless He Himself first lay it down, you do not believe God when He says He wants ALL to come to Him through His Son. Or believe His Son when He says that whomsoever comes to me IN NO WAY shall I cast away. Or that God wants ALL to be saved, but many will not come to Him.

The major tenant of your belief is that God chooses randomly who to send to heaven and who to send to hell. That if God has chosen you the Holy Spirit zaps you until you believe and have faith, so God's will is done. But God is WAY more powerful than that and just like He didn't lock Eve up so her hands could not reach the apple, God gives His Children free choice. We choose God, God just knows what is going to happen because God KNOWS EVERYTHING. There is no past, present, future with God, there is just that God knows all.

Your theology treats God like a human being, not treats God as God.

So the two verses above are absoulutely true and God does know everything at the same time, there is nothing God does not know. And God tells us that in heaven there will also be nothing kept hidden that is not brought forward. We will eventually know all the answers to every question
 
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ToBeLoved

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Please read this with an open mind,

When Peter wrote that we are “chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father” (1 Peter 1:1-2), he was not using the word “foreknowledge” to mean that God was aware beforehand who would believe and therefore chose them because of their foreseen faith. Rather, Peter meant that God determined before time to know and love and save them; and He chose them without regard to anything good or bad they might do. Scripture teaches that God’s sovereign choice is made “according to the kind intention of His will” and “according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will”—that is, not for any reason external to Himself. Certainly He did not choose certain sinners to be saved because of something praiseworthy in them, or because He foresaw that they would choose Him. He chose them solely because it pleased Him to do so. God declares “the end from the beginning …saying, ‘My purpose will be established, and I will accomplish all My good pleasure’” (Isa. 46:10). He is not subject to others’ decisions. His purposes for choosing some and rejecting others are hidden in the secret counsels of His own will.

Moreover, everything that exists in the universe exists because God allowed it, decreed it, and called it into existence. “Our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases” (Ps. 115:3). “Whatever the Lord pleases, He does, in heaven and in earth, - John Macarthur
I need to come back to this post later this morning or this afternoon because my response will take to long to write right now and I have work soon. But I will come back to it. If I forget, please remind me.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Satan is defeated, there is still a skirmish but the war is over, did the Lord's death go in vain? Did he not defeat satan and overcome death itself on the cross?
Satan has been defeated because the consequence of sin, which is spiritual death has been broken by the blood of Jesus Christ. That means that God's Children can once again be redeemed back to God and not forever be estranged from God.

That was the plan all along, for God to get His Children back, the ones He lost to sin in the garden when sin separated God and mankind.

So, Satan cannot separate Jesus from us, but Satan can still and does still cause problems and is seeking to draw as many of God's Children away from Him as he can, because Satan hates God that much. He knows how much God loves us and His desire to have all of us back, so Satan is trying his best to pull as many of God's Beloved Children away from Him because He knows how to hurt God. It's through us.

So it is also in God's plan that He let's each of His human creation decide, given free will, IF they will come to God or if they will not. And that is part of God's plan. To have His creation choose to love Him and choose to worship Him, not that the Holy Spirit must go around regenerating people randomly so God can get His way.

When the time is right, the time already deemed by the Father, that only the Father knows, Satan will be destroyed. He has already lost it is just a matter of God's timing to put him in his place.

So Jesus death was all about us. And Jesus death defeated Satan because he wanted God's creation permanantly not able to reconciile itself back to God. But Jesus happened and we do have God again, we have the indwelling Holy Spirit.

So God is doing what He wants to. He is giving His creation free will and what comes with that is a lot of good and a lot of bad.
 
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PrettyboyAndy

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You are answering now a different question than what you said. You said that the things in Rev 20 already happened, but they have not, so the simple fact is you are making statements about something that will occur in the future, not what has already happened.

This is not an issue of God's Sovereignity, this is an issue of saying that a future time in the Biblical timeline has already occured. That is why I told you your timing is way off and asked you if certain things had occured on the earth yet or not.[/QUOTE

Okay, what I meant was that Things were already planned and ordained by the Lord from the beginning of time, not that they already occurred.
 
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PrettyboyAndy

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The problem is your theology about who has been drawn by the Father and how.

Just like no one in Jesus time understood Jesus saying that no one could take His life unless He Himself first lay it down, you do not believe God when He says He wants ALL to come to Him through His Son. Or believe His Son when He says that whomsoever comes to me IN NO WAY shall I cast away. Or that God wants ALL to be saved, but many will not come to Him.

The major tenant of your belief is that God chooses randomly who to send to heaven and who to send to hell. That if God has chosen you the Holy Spirit zaps you until you believe and have faith, so God's will is done. But God is WAY more powerful than that and just like He didn't lock Eve up so her hands could not reach the apple, God gives His Children free choice. We choose God, God just knows what is going to happen because God KNOWS EVERYTHING. There is no past, present, future with God, there is just that God knows all.

Your theology treats God like a human being, not treats God as God.

So the two verses above are absolutely true and God does know everything at the same time, there is nothing God does not know. And God tells us that in heaven there will also be nothing kept hidden that is not brought forward. We will eventually know all the answers to every question

I appreciate your response, I however see the verses a little differently.

These verses essentially say that:
a) All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. Matthew -(salvation is available to anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him)
b) that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father. (Lord sovereignly chooses for salvation according to his purpose and will)
 
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PrettyboyAndy

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Satan has been defeated because the consequence of sin, which is spiritual death has been broken by the blood of Jesus Christ. That means that God's Children can once again be redeemed back to God and not forever be estranged from God.

That was the plan all along, for God to get His Children back, the ones He lost to sin in the garden when sin separated God and mankind.

So, Satan cannot separate Jesus from us, but Satan can still and does still cause problems and is seeking to draw as many of God's Children away from Him as he can, because Satan hates God that much. He knows how much God loves us and His desire to have all of us back, so Satan is trying his best to pull as many of God's Beloved Children away from Him because He knows how to hurt God. It's through us.

So it is also in God's plan that He let's each of His human creation decide, given free will, IF they will come to God or if they will not. And that is part of God's plan. To have His creation choose to love Him and choose to worship Him, not that the Holy Spirit must go around regenerating people randomly so God can get His way.

When the time is right, the time already deemed by the Father, that only the Father knows, Satan will be destroyed. He has already lost it is just a matter of God's timing to put him in his place.

So Jesus death was all about us. And Jesus death defeated Satan because he wanted God's creation permanantly not able to reconciile itself back to God. But Jesus happened and we do have God again, we have the indwelling Holy Spirit.

So God is doing what He wants to. He is giving His creation free will and what comes with that is a lot of good and a lot of bad.

Ephesians 2 shows:
a) how we were dead in our sins
b) even the faith which allows us to be saved, is a gift from God! If God gives us the faith to believe, then it salvation is from the Lord, not from our ability

As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved
7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
 
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PrettyboyAndy

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I need to come back to this post later this morning or this afternoon because my response will take to long to write right now and I have work soon. But I will come back to it. If I forget, please remind me.
Thank you, I understand this will take some time to go through it
 
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ToBeLoved

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I appreciate your response, I however see the verses a little differently.

These verses essentially say that:
a) All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. Matthew -(salvation is available to anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him)
b) that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father. (Lord sovereignly chooses for salvation according to his purpose and will)
Ok, since the Bible is written and Jesus' words are in there and Jesus said if you know me, you have known the Father, then who is the Son hiding Himself from when there is a Bible in every church and hotel room and most homes in the US?

You think Jesus held things back that He has the Holy Spirit only reveal to a few, only through the Holy Spirit regenerating them against their free will?

Also, the great commission is for us, God's Children to spread the gospel to all people. Now why on earth would Jesus tell us to do that if He wanted to choose who comes to Him and have the Holy Spirit zap them into regeneration?

Makes no sense at all.

Don't you think that what you believe needs to make sense in leiu of other scripture?

If ... If Calvinism is true, then it affects every individual ever in the Bible back to Adam and Eve. That means that God brought evil into the world on purpose because no one had free will. Not Cain killing Able, not the people who God said were wicked when He destroyed the earth by flood, none of them had any free will to make any decision at all.

You realize that that changes EVERYTHING don't you?
 
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PrettyboyAndy

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Ok, since the Bible is written and Jesus' words are in there and Jesus said if you know me, you have known the Father, then who is the Son hiding Himself from when there is a Bible in every church and hotel room and most homes in the US?

You think Jesus held things back that He has the Holy Spirit only reveal to a few, only through the Holy Spirit regenerating them against their free will?

Also, the great commission is for us, God's Children to spread the gospel to all people. Now why on earth would Jesus tell us to do that if He wanted to choose who comes to Him and have the Holy Spirit zap them into regeneration?

Makes no sense at all.

Don't you think that what you believe needs to make sense in leiu of other scripture?


Okay so regarding evangelizing, we are called to evangelize, so obviously obeying the Lord would be for us to do so. Now your real question is what would be the point if God has an elect? - Faith comes from hearing the Word of God, the means in which someone is saved is by hearing the Word of God

If the believer is dead in their sins, and a slave to sin, the bible says, then God must do the initial work in order to enable us to come to him. A dead slave cannot believe, God does the initial work, just as it says in Ezekiel, we had hearts of stone, and God turns them to flesh.

There are many bibles, but what does that have to do with anything? The road is narrow and few enter it.
- I re read your post, I understand what your saying, but John 3:3, unless one is born again he cannot see or understand the things from above, so they hear but they dont understand, without the spirit of God you can read the bible but you won't understand
 
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rockytopva

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John Bunyan's emphasis on the responsibility of Christian life... Some excerpts from Bunyan's "The Barren Fig Tree" work:

6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down. - Luke 13:6-9

In parables there are two things to be taken notice of, and to be inquired into of them that read.

First, The metaphors made use of.
Second, The doctrine or mysteries couched under such metaphors.

The metaphors in this parable are,
1. A certain man;
2. A vineyard;
3. A fig-tree, barren or fruitless;
4. A dresser;
5. Three years;
6. Digging and dunging, &c.

The doctrine, or mystery, couched under these words is to show us what is like to become of a fruitless or formal professor. For,

1. By the man in the parable is meant God the Father (Luke 15:11).
2. By the vineyard, his church (Isa 5:7).
3. By the fig-tree, a professor.
4. By the dresser, the Lord Jesus.
5. By the fig-tree’s barrenness, the professor’s fruitlessness.
6. By the three years, the patience of God that for a time he extendeth to barren professors.
7. This calling to the dresser of the vineyard to cut it down, is to show the outcries of justice against fruitless professors.
8. The dresser’s interceding is to show how the Lord Jesus steps in, and takes hold of the head of his Father’s axe, to stop, or at least to defer, the present execution of a barren fig-tree.
9. The dresser’s desire to try to make the fig-tree fruitful, is to show you how unwilling he is that even a barren fig-tree should yet be barren, and perish.
10. His digging about it, and dunging of it, is to show his willingness to apply gospel helps to this barren professor, if haply he may be fruitful.
11. The supposition that the fig-tree may yet continue fruitless, is to show, that when Christ Jesus hath done all, there are some professors will abide barren and fruitless.
12. The determination upon this supposition, at last to cut it down, is a certain prediction of such professor’s unavoidable and eternal damnation.

But to take this parable into pieces, and to discourse more particularly, though with all brevity, upon all the parts thereof. ‘A certain MAN had a fig-tree planted in his vineyard.’ The MAN, I told you, is to present us with God the Father; by which similitude he is often set out in the New Testament. Observe then, that it is no new thing, if you find in God’s church barren fig-trees, fruitless professors; even as here you see is a tree, a fruitless tree, a fruitless fig-tree in the vineyard.

Fruit is not so easily brought forth as a profession is got into; it is easy for a man to clothe himself with a fair show in the flesh, to word it, and say, Be thou warmed and filled with the best. It is no hard thing to do these with other things; but to be fruitful, to bring forth fruit to God, this doth not every tree, no not every fig-tree that stands in the vineyard of God. Those words also, ‘Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he taketh away,’ assert the same thing (John 15:2). There are branches in Christ, in Christ’s body mystical, which is his church, his vineyard, that bear not fruit, wherefore the hand of God is to take them away: I looked for grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes, that is, no fruit at all that was acceptable with God (Isa 5:4). Again, ‘Israel is an empty vine, he bringeth forth fruit unto himself,’ none to God; he is without fruit to God (Hosea 10:1). All these, with many more, show us the truth of the observation, and that God’s church may be cumbered with fruitless fig-trees, with barren professors.
 
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PrettyboyAndy

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John Bunyan's emphasis on the responsibility of Christian life... Some excerpts from Bunyan's "The Barren Fig Tree" work:

6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down. - Luke 13:6-9

In parables there are two things to be taken notice of, and to be inquired into of them that read.

First, The metaphors made use of.
Second, The doctrine or mysteries couched under such metaphors.

The metaphors in this parable are,
1. A certain man;
2. A vineyard;
3. A fig-tree, barren or fruitless;
4. A dresser;
5. Three years;
6. Digging and dunging, &c.

The doctrine, or mystery, couched under these words is to show us what is like to become of a fruitless or formal professor. For,

1. By the man in the parable is meant God the Father (Luke 15:11).
2. By the vineyard, his church (Isa 5:7).
3. By the fig-tree, a professor.
4. By the dresser, the Lord Jesus.
5. By the fig-tree’s barrenness, the professor’s fruitlessness.
6. By the three years, the patience of God that for a time he extendeth to barren professors.
7. This calling to the dresser of the vineyard to cut it down, is to show the outcries of justice against fruitless professors.
8. The dresser’s interceding is to show how the Lord Jesus steps in, and takes hold of the head of his Father’s axe, to stop, or at least to defer, the present execution of a barren fig-tree.
9. The dresser’s desire to try to make the fig-tree fruitful, is to show you how unwilling he is that even a barren fig-tree should yet be barren, and perish.
10. His digging about it, and dunging of it, is to show his willingness to apply gospel helps to this barren professor, if haply he may be fruitful.
11. The supposition that the fig-tree may yet continue fruitless, is to show, that when Christ Jesus hath done all, there are some professors will abide barren and fruitless.
12. The determination upon this supposition, at last to cut it down, is a certain prediction of such professor’s unavoidable and eternal damnation.

But to take this parable into pieces, and to discourse more particularly, though with all brevity, upon all the parts thereof. ‘A certain MAN had a fig-tree planted in his vineyard.’ The MAN, I told you, is to present us with God the Father; by which similitude he is often set out in the New Testament. Observe then, that it is no new thing, if you find in God’s church barren fig-trees, fruitless professors; even as here you see is a tree, a fruitless tree, a fruitless fig-tree in the vineyard.

Fruit is not so easily brought forth as a profession is got into; it is easy for a man to clothe himself with a fair show in the flesh, to word it, and say, Be thou warmed and filled with the best. It is no hard thing to do these with other things; but to be fruitful, to bring forth fruit to God, this doth not every tree, no not every fig-tree that stands in the vineyard of God. Those words also, ‘Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he taketh away,’ assert the same thing (John 15:2). There are branches in Christ, in Christ’s body mystical, which is his church, his vineyard, that bear not fruit, wherefore the hand of God is to take them away: I looked for grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes, that is, no fruit at all that was acceptable with God (Isa 5:4). Again, ‘Israel is an empty vine, he bringeth forth fruit unto himself,’ none to God; he is without fruit to God (Hosea 10:1). All these, with many more, show us the truth of the observation, and that God’s church may be cumbered with fruitless fig-trees, with barren professors.

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