Refuting Calvin's TULIP

[Thursday]

Anything can be taken out of context and misconscrewed, but eternal security is the way God set it up. So we could reside with Him forever.

Talk to Jesus if you don't like the answer.

Jesus said we must endure to be saved. He also said anyone who puts their hand to the plow then looks back is not fit for the Kingdom. He also said that to remain in his love we must obey his commandments. Jesus told us what separates the sheep from the goats, and it is their actions not their beliefs.

Not to be taken lightly or ignored.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Jesus said we must endure to be saved. He also said anyone who puts their hand to the plow then looks back is not fit for the Kingdom. He also said that to remain in his love we must obey his commandments. Jesus told us what separates the sheep from the goats, and it is their actions not their beliefs.

Not to be taken lightly or ignored.

As much as I appreciate your putting it in your own words, can you include your scriptural references for your points?

 

[Thursday]

As much as I appreciate your putting it in your own words, can you include your scriptural references for your points?

Sure.

Matt 24:13
But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Matthew 10:22
You will be hated by everyone on account of My name, but the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.

Luke 9::62
Jesus replied, "No one who puts a hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God."

John 15
5“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

John 15:10
If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love.
Also,
1 John 2:6
Whoever claims to abide in Him must walk as Jesus walked.


Matt 25
40“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

For many of us one only needs to accurately state the Calvinist position to "disprove" it, insomuch as their view of God would seem contrary to God's character as many of us understand God's character.

Take for example God's judicial nature. Calvinists clearly embrace the idea of "imputed guilt", which by its very nature is unjust and therefore should be discarded. And much as Calvinists insist upon interpreting passages to support such an idea, and discarding any interpretation contrary to Calvinism, they end up embracing an inherent contradiction.

When I've talked with Calvinists about this particular point they generally come back with "God is not just in human terms". But the scriptures were written to humans. So when we read in 2Th 1:6 for examaple that "God is just", the word "just" is supposed to mean something to us humans, namely that God punishes evil and compensates victims of unjustified suffering. But to say God is not just in human terms is the same as saying God is not just, since you're talking to humans. And so in Calvinism God imputes guilt to people who hadn't actually committed the crimes of which they are accused, which is what we humans call "unjust".

The fact that Calvinism views God as "unjust", in human terms is for me sufficient evidence against Calvinism. And this is just one of the evidences against Calvinism. But likely you'll never convinced a "Calvinist" of that.

How is the Calvinist view of God unjust?

God is completely just in punishing sin, and casting us all into hell, "for we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."

 

[Thursday]

How is the Calvinist view of God unjust?

God is completely just in punishing sin, and casting us all into hell, "for we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."

The Calvinist view claims that God punishes with no regard for our actions on earth.

That is not just.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

The Calvinist view claims that God punishes with no regard for our actions on earth.

That is not just.

Not the Calvinist view, but the Word of God: Please see Romans 9 below: Specifically verses 11 and 14-16

a few Things I will point out:
a) Salvation is from the Lord, nothing we can do to earn it, we do not work for it, it is from the Lord
b) Even Faith is a gift, an undeserving gift from God, we can not take credit for.
c) Salvation does not depend on human effort or desire, all
d) God is righteous and just in punishing sin, he is HOLY and can not be around sin, and because of his nature he must punish sin
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. 9 For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”[c]

10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[d] 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[e]

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

 

[Thursday]

Not the Calvinist view, but the Word of God: Please see Romans 9 below: Specifically verses 11 and 14-16

a few Things I will point out:
a) Salvation is from the Lord, nothing we can do to earn it, we do not work for it, it is from the Lord
b) Even Faith is a gift, an undeserving gift from God, we can not take credit for.
c) Salvation does not depend on human effort or desire, all
d) God is righteous and just in punishing sin, he is HOLY and can not be around sin, and because of his nature he must punish sin
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. 9 For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”[c]

10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[d] 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[e]

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

Romans 9 is about what God can do, not what he promises to do. The point of Romans 9 is that God is God and we aren't God.

The bible is explicit that we will be judged for our actions, not God's actions.


Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

John 15:10
If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commands and remain in his love.

Matt 7:21
"Not everyone who calls out to me, 'Lord! Lord!' will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter.

1 Tim 2
3This is good and pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

1 Peter 1:17
Since you call on a Father who judges each person's work impartially, live out your time as foreigners here in reverent fear.

Acts 10
34Then Peter began to speak: “I now truly understand that God does not show favoritism, 35but welcomes those from every nation who fear Him and do what is right.

2 Cor 5:10
10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive his due for the things done in the body, whether good or bad.

Romans 2
6He will render to each one according to his works: 7to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8but for those who are self-seekinga and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

 

[RC1970]

For those who are interested in what the "five points" are really about, I would recommend these books:

"Five Points: Towards a Deeper Experience of God's Grace" by John Piper (Baptist)
"Chosen by God" by R. C. Sproul (Presbyterian)

It is a very common human trait to reject concepts which are difficult to understand or concepts which don't sit right with us at an emotional level.

"And he said, This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” ~ John 6:65

"And he said, He who has ears to hear, let him hear.” ~ Mark 4:9

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

The Calvinist view claims that God punishes with no regard for our actions on earth.

That is not just.

God is righteous and just in punishing sin, remember he is HOLY and can not be around sin,

Romans 9 is about what God can do, not what he promises to do. The point of Romans 9 is that God is God and we aren't God.

The bible is explicit that we will be judged for our actions, not God's actions.


Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

John 15:10
If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commands and remain in his love.

Matt 7:21
"Not everyone who calls out to me, 'Lord! Lord!' will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter.

1 Tim 2
3This is good and pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

1 Peter 1:17
Since you call on a Father who judges each person's work impartially, live out your time as foreigners here in reverent fear.

Acts 10
34Then Peter began to speak: “I now truly understand that God does not show favoritism, 35but welcomes those from every nation who fear Him and do what is right.

2 Cor 5:10
10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive his due for the things done in the body, whether good or bad.

Romans 2
6He will render to each one according to his works: 7to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8but for those who are self-seekinga and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

John 15, is written to the believers who are already in Christ and have the Holy Spirit,
Matthew 7:21 - If someone is a true believer he will produce fruit and do the will of the Father,
1 Timothy 2 - All men is Jews and Gentiles
2 cor 5:10 - Does not apply to salvation, if he did that would be works based salvation
Acts 10 - also to the Jews and gentiles alike


Romans 2 and Galatians 6, I can not answer for those

 

[Thursday]

John 15, is written to the believers who are already in Christ and have the Holy Spirit,
Matthew 7:21 - If someone is a true believer he will produce fruit and do the will of the Father,
1 Timothy 2 - All men is Jews and Gentiles
2 cor 5:10 - Does not apply to salvation, if he did that would be works based salvation
Acts 10 - also to the Jews and gentiles alike


Romans 2 and Galatians 6, I can not answer for those

Exactly. John 15 is a warning to Christians that we must obey to remain in the love of Jesus.

Matt 7:21 doesn't say what you are saying. It says that only those who do the will of the Father will be saved. It is about a matter of will, not robotic obedience as you are claiming.

1 Tim: Exactly, All men are Jews and Gentiles. God wants all men to be saved, including you and I. What we do in response to his grace will determine our destiny.

2 Cor applies to salvation. We will be judged for our works as the bible says over and over. If you want to call it works based salvation that's up to you. We can't do it alone, though, because we needs God's grace to follow his will.

Acts 10 says EVERY man in every nation.

You can't answer for any of these without violating the man made dogma you are following. Your only option is to distort scripture or ignore it.

 

[bcbsr]

If as a child your father spent the rent check on booze, and he made you work on the farm rather than attend school, do you imagine that you would be attending Harvard Law or work in a coal mine?

Through no fault of your own, you suffer for what your "head" did.

The same goes for any nation. Did Germans suffer the greatest possible pain for the actions of Hitler?

It takes more than a surface understanding to wrestle with these issues.

Nope, that's to what Calvinism is referring to by "imputed guilt". It's talking about actual legal guilt be transferred to the innocent party. Not simply the effect on one's circumstances. You need to study Calvinism better.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Not the Calvinist view, but the Word of God: Please see Romans 9 below: Specifically verses 11 and 14-16

a few Things I will point out:
a) Salvation is from the Lord, nothing we can do to earn it, we do not work for it, it is from the Lord
b) Even Faith is a gift, an undeserving gift from God, we can not take credit for.
c) Salvation does not depend on human effort or desire, all
d) God is righteous and just in punishing sin, he is HOLY and can not be around sin, and because of his nature he must punish sin
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. 9 For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”[c]

10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[d] 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[e]

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

Calvinism believes that Jesus only died for the sins of the elect. But we all know that God's Word says that Jesus died for the sins of the world.

Calvinism also believes that God chooses to send some to heaven and some to hell. That God elected the elect before the earth was ever created. But God's Word says that Christ died so all could be saved.

 

[bcbsr]

How is the Calvinist view of God unjust?

How can you ask that question if you read my post? So you're saying that God is just in imputing guilt to the innocent. Kind of a contradiction, but somehow Calvinists don't see it as a contradiction.

 

[ToBeLoved]

8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. 9 For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”[c]

10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[d] 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[e]

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

This is Paul talking specifically about the covenant made to Abraham and who are the children of the promise.You missed a major part of the verses that put's what you included into context.

Just as Paul says not all of Israel is Israel.

 

[Mountainmike]

As much as I appreciate your putting it in your own words, can you include your scriptural references for your points?

Most of them are well known.
Endure...eg James 1:12 (several)
Sheep and goats...Matthew 25:32 on.
The problem for Calivinists is that salvation clearly depends on what you choose to do (or not do) eg John 6:51 etc.

 

[ToBeLoved]

God is righteous and just in punishing sin, remember he is HOLY and can not be around sin,

But .... God does not want to punish sinners, He wants to reconcile us all to Himself through Jesus Christ.

The Bible says God wishes ALL to be saved.

And everyone who is justified by Christ righteousness died with Christ to sin. So all those who are saved are reconciled back to God. We have God Himself, the Holy Spirit, so therefore, Christ made us HOLY.

Romans 5:1-5
1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; 4and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; 5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

But .... God does not want to punish sinners, He wants to reconcile us all to Himself through Jesus Christ.

The Bible says God wishes ALL to be saved.

And everyone who is justified by Christ righteousness died with Christ to sin. So all those who are saved are reconciled back to God. We have God Himself, the Holy Spirit, so therefore, Christ made us HOLY.

Romans 5:1-5
1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; 4and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; 5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I believe when the bible says he wishes all to be saved, he means the Jews and Gentiles alike, - remember in the OT, salvation was for Jews and Jews were the chosen people of God, more then 1/2 the Bible is comprised of the OT, now salvation is offered to every tribe nation and tongue, it wasn't before

Christ only makes HOLY those whose name was written in the lambs book of life, before the foundation of the earth was created.

Even the initial faith to believe in Christ is a gift from God, so Salvation is from the Lord

 

[Samson Reaper]

How is the Calvinist view of God unjust?

God is completely just in punishing sin, and casting us all into hell, "for we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."

"we have all sinned and fallen short."

We did ? or is it that we did not do anything - fall or sin - but were predestined to be that way before we were born. Such that even a new born baby leaveing it's mother's womb is "obnoxious and odious in the sight of God." Quote from Calvin's Institutes Book 1 Chapter 1. (Not what the Bible says.)

 

[Samson Reaper]

2 Peter 3:9

The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

 

[Samson Reaper]

How can you ask that question if you read my post? So you're saying that God is just in imputing guilt to the innocent. Kind of a contradiction, but somehow Calvinists don't see it as a contradiction.

Ezekial 18 is good on this subject.