Reformed, Presbyterian and the Westminster Confession

[mark kennedy]

I'm considering joining a Reformed Covenant Church and right across the street is a rather large Presbyterian church and I'm curious if anyone knows the difference doctrinally. I know the Reformed Covenant Church holds to a strict Westminster Confession while the Presbyterian churches might be a little more...shall we say...flexible on certain issues. Obviously I could just walk in the door and ask questions or do google searches but I have had better luck in the past in a forum like this.

So, any doctrinally astute posters out there who can help me sort through this?

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[AMR]

Do they have a posted statement of faith at their web site that you can review? If they are "strict" as you say, I suspect they may have positions on exclusive psalmody, closed Tables, a KJV focus, head coverings for women, and so on.

As usual with the Reformed, there is Reformed and then there is "truly" Reformed.

I do not know the church group as it is a broadly used title. Now Trinity CRC is a Three Forms of Unity group, but I do not think that is the church you are mentioning.

 

[mark kennedy]

Do they have a posted statement of faith at their web site that you can review? If they are "strict" as you say, I suspect they may have positions on exclusive psalmody, closed Tables, a KJV focus, head coverings for women, and so on.

As usual with the Reformed, there is Reformed and then there is "truly" Reformed.

I do not know the church group as it is a broadly used title. Now Trinity CRC is a Three Forms of Unity group, but I do not think that is the church you are mentioning.

I'm a ministry student at a Nazarene Bible college, I know how to check doctrinal statements and read between the lines but unfortunately I'm not Wesleyan, I'm more Calvinist. What I am really curious about is what the sticking points would be between a strict Westminster Confession and a more ambiguous one. The usual suspects are of concern to me, higher criticism and evolution of course are key indicators for me.

I don't know what 'head coverings' is all about but this church I'm visiting does sing the Psalms and has a thing for Covenant Theology, I'm fine with that. What I'm looking for is a church that understands that the canon of Scripture is the standard for doctrine.

I'll have a bachelors in about a year and I'm really not pursuing any ministry opportunities as a career, I intend to do it more as an avocation. Bible study is a very big deal for me so I'm just wondering where the strict Westminster Confession and a more, shall we say, modern understanding parts company.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[hedrick]

Your question seems actually to be about the Presbyterian church. Can you tell what denomination they are? Most Presbyterian churches are PCUSA. While I'm a PCUSA elder, it doesn't sound you're interested in one of our churches. The smaller Presbyterian denominations follow Westminster, so they should be what you're looking for. See if the church has a web site. That should identify the denomination. The sign out front might also.

PCUSA churches vary a lot. Some are fairly close to PCA. Others are more liberal. Many have a mixture of members. Accepting Scripture as a standard doesn't really answer the question. PCUSA churches use Scripture as their standard, but they will normally use the results of critical scholarship to understand it, and thus often don't read it the same way as conservative churches. Probably most accept evolution. Almost all ordain female elders. My sense is that you're probably not looking for a PCUSA church.

Colorado Springs seems to have both varieties of Presbyterian church, so you'd need to tell us the specific one. Given that we could give you a reading based on the web site. First Presbyterian is part of the ECO. It's kind of a compromise. The ECO churches are former PCUSA churches that can't accept ordination of homosexuals. They claim that's not the whole issue, but they accept the PCUSA standards, including the 20th Cent confessional documents, so there's likely to be a difference between them and the conservative Presbyterian denominations. They're probably churches from the more conservative end of the PCUSA, but you can't rely on them following Westminster fully.

 

[AMR]

I'm a ministry student at a Nazarene Bible college, I know how to check doctrinal statements and read between the lines but unfortunately I'm not Wesleyan, I'm more Calvinist. What I am really curious about is what the sticking points would be between a strict Westminster Confession and a more ambiguous one. The usual suspects are of concern to me, higher criticism and evolution of course are key indicators for me.

Maybe I am confused a wee bit, Mark. Your faith icon is "Presbyterian". Is that correctly representing your views?

 

[mark kennedy]

Maybe I am confused a wee bit, Mark. Your faith icon is "Presbyterian". Is that correctly representing your views?

That's as close as I can get right now, most of my church attendance has been more Baptist. I've been looking around and Presbyterian is pretty close. I've been looking seriously at Reformed Covenant because of the Westminster Confession but I'm in a transitional phase for lack of a better way of describing it.

 

[mark kennedy]

Your question seems actually to be about the Presbyterian church. Can you tell what denomination they are? Most Presbyterian churches are PCUSA. While I'm a PCUSA elder, it doesn't sound you're interested in one of our churches. The smaller Presbyterian denominations follow Westminster, so they should be what you're looking for. See if the church has a web site. That should identify the denomination. The sign out front might also.

Well, of course I'm doing that and I've noticed what you are saying. I'm not going to warm up to a more modernist environment so it does seem as if the smaller congregations are more palatable.

PCUSA churches vary a lot. Some are fairly close to PCA. Others are more liberal. Many have a mixture of members. Accepting Scripture as a standard doesn't really answer the question. PCUSA churches use Scripture as their standard, but they will normally use the results of critical scholarship to understand it, and thus often don't read it the same way as conservative churches. Probably most accept evolution. Almost all ordain female elders. My sense is that you're probably not looking for a PCUSA church.

First of all 'critical scholarship' is mostly variant text, the hermeneutics required for doctrine are largely philosophical and interpretive. I have no problem with female elders or pastors except that women are far more effective in other capacities but that's a relatively minor issue for me.

An issue like original sin and Adam being the first parent on humanity is a watershed issue for me. If I were to get right down to brass tact's I'd say the modernist tendency toward naturalistic explanations for miracles is a crucial issue.

Colorado Springs seems to have both varieties of Presbyterian church, so you'd need to tell us the specific one. Given that we could give you a reading based on the web site. First Presbyterian is part of the ECO. It's kind of a compromise. The ECO churches are former PCUSA churches that can't accept ordination of homosexuals. They claim that's not the whole issue, but they accept the PCUSA standards, including the 20th Cent confessional documents, so there's likely to be a difference between them and the conservative Presbyterian denominations. They're probably churches from the more conservative end of the PCUSA, but you can't rely on them following Westminster fully.

To be honest accepting homosexual ordination is a definite red flag. I followed the culture wars closely and given what has happened in Europe and Canada with the prevalence of liberal thinking I'm not optimistic about what that means doctrinally. I'm looking seriously at a Reformed Covenant Church and I don't think anything short of a strict Westminster Confession is going to set well with me. I'm just not comfortable with what happens when modernist thinking gets into doctrine.

It's certainly informative to get such substantive feedback, thank you so much. I'm still considering the options but it's nice to see these issues laid out with such candor and rest assured, I will take it very seriously.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[dhh712]

I'm looking seriously at a Reformed Covenant Church and I don't think anything short of a strict Westminster Confession is going to set well with me. I'm just not comfortable with what happens when modernist thinking gets into doctrine.

I'm a member of the Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America and the denomination holds strictly to the Westminster Standards (yet of course gives final authority to Scripture) with a few minor deviations which is explained in their testimony (which I can send to you if you would like). The denomination is very conservative in doctrine and thinking and has very little tolerance, if any, for liberal ways of interpreting Scripture.

The two main things which separate this denomination from the other conservative Presbyterian churches (so I've been told by one of it's pastors) is exclusive psalmody (which is self-explanatory) and the mediatorial kingship of Christ (which is very well explained here: Belle Center, OH, Reformed Presbyterian Church - Christ the King A very basic summary is this: "the Lord Jesus Christ, the God-man Mediator, reigns as Mediatorial King over all things, for the benefit of His Church to the glory of the Father." That is taken from the web-site which the link is to.)

That church that you're going to in Colorado Springs, it wouldn't be the one that David Reese pastors at, is it? He is a pastor of the RPC in Colorado Springs, I'm just not sure how many Reformed churches there are in that city. If so, I am *very* jealous! He is my favorite pastor to listen to (so far) on sermon audio. His sermons on 2 Peter are wonderful and his series on Genesis is really good so far.

 

[AMR]

Mark,

Thank you for the clarifications about your denominational status.

This may be of use to you:

Presbyterian and Reformed Churches

 

[Radagast]

right across the street is a rather large Presbyterian church and I'm curious if anyone knows the difference doctrinally

No, because unless you get more specific than just "Presbyterian," the doctrine could be anything.

 

[mark kennedy]

No, because unless you get more specific than just "Presbyterian," the doctrine could be anything.

A strict Westminster Confession

 

[Radagast]

A strict Westminster Confession

There are several (small) Presbyterian denominations with a very strict view of the Westminster Confession. The PCUSA represents the liberal end of a wide spectrum.

The main difference between the Presbyterian and the (Dutch) Reformed churches is that the Reformed churches tend to use the Belgic Confession (which is not all that different from the Westminster). However, over the years, the Reformed churches have had a huge influence on Presbyterian thought.

As with Presbyterians, there are more liberal and more conservative Reformed denominations.

 

[mark kennedy]

There are several (small) Presbyterian denominations with a very strict view of the Westminster Confession. The PCUSA represents the liberal end of a wide spectrum.

The main difference between the Presbyterian and the (Dutch) Reformed churches is that the Reformed churches tend to use the Belgic Confession (which is not all that different from the Westminster). However, over the years, the Reformed churches have had a huge influence on Presbyterian thought.

As with Presbyterians, there are more liberal and more conservative Reformed denominations.

There are two Presbyterian churches downtown, a little church with a Westminster Confession creed and the 1st Presbyterian across the street. The 1st Presbyterian is a landmark building, it has the feel of what they used to call high Presbyterian. I'm in a Baptist church now but I honestly think the church should do more then evangelize, don't get me wrong, I love Pentecostals and Baptists but it's a bad fit for me. I would just like to find a church that has a decent Bible study.

Appreciate the information.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[Radagast]

There are two Presbyterian churches downtown, a little church with a Westminster Confession creed and the 1st Presbyterian across the street. The 1st Presbyterian is a landmark building, it has the feel of what they used to call high Presbyterian.

A church called "1st Presbyterian" could be either PCUSA (liberal), or PCA (conservative), or possibly even some other conservative group. For example, "1st Presbyterian Church" in Chattanooga is PCA, and looks like this:

​

The best way to find out is to see if the sign out the front specifies a denomination, or to look at the "what we believe" section of the church website.

FYI, these are some of the larger Presbyterian denominations in the USA. There are many others, often with very similar names:

Presbyterian Church USA (PCUSA) -- about 10,000 churches
Presbyterian Church in America (PCA) -- about 2,000 churches
Cumberland Presbyterian Church -- about 700 churches
Korean American Presbyterian Church -- about 600 churches
Evangelical Presbyterian Church (EPC) -- about 500 churches
Orthodox Presbyterian Church (OPC) -- about 300 churches
Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church (ARPC) -- about 300 churches
Korean Presbyterian Church in America -- about 300 churches

I can't find anything called "Reformed Covenant Church" with Google (remember, exact names are important).

 

[Radagast]

I'm a member of the Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America and the denomination holds strictly to the Westminster Standards

I did wonder if the O.P was referring to you guys.

 

[mark kennedy]

A church called "1st Presbyterian" could be either PCUSA (liberal), or PCA (conservative), or possibly even some other conservative group. For example, "1st Presbyterian Church" in Chattanooga is PCA, and looks like this:

​

The best way to find out is to see if the sign out the front specifies a denomination, or to look at the "what we believe" section of the church website.

FYI, these are some of the larger Presbyterian denominations in the USA. There are many others, often with very similar names:

Presbyterian Church USA (PCUSA) -- about 10,000 churches
Presbyterian Church in America (PCA) -- about 2,000 churches
Cumberland Presbyterian Church -- about 700 churches
Korean American Presbyterian Church -- about 600 churches
Evangelical Presbyterian Church (EPC) -- about 500 churches
Orthodox Presbyterian Church (OPC) -- about 300 churches
Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church (ARPC) -- about 300 churches
Korean Presbyterian Church in America -- about 300 churches

I can't find anything called "Reformed Covenant Church" with Google (remember, exact names are important).

Springs Reformed Church

First Presbyterian Church

 

[Radagast]

Springs Reformed Church

First Presbyterian Church

My guess was right then... the first of those is part of the RPCNA (which dhh712 is a member of). The RPCNA is very much on the strongly conservative end of the Presbyterian spectrum: Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The second of those has no "what we believe" section on the website, but I see that it's part of the ECO (indeed, Jim Singleton, the former pastor, was a leading figure in the formation of the ECO): ECO (denomination) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The ECO is a recent split from the PCUSA triggered by the issue of non-celibate gay and lesbian clergy (but involving a wide range of other issues). Theologically, I believe that the ECO sits somewhere between the PCUSA and the more conservative Presbyterian denominations -- but they are probably still working out exactly where.

 

[hedrick]

The ECO is a recent split from the PCUSA triggered by the issue of non-celibate gay and lesbian clergy (but involving a wide range of other issues). Theologically, I believe that the ECO sits somewhere between the PCUSA and the more conservative Presbyterian denominations -- but they are probably still working out exactly where.

The ECO uses the PCUSA book of confessions. This means that they aren't strictly Westminster Confession. They're from the conservative end of the PCUSA, but I doubt that most of them are quite at the level of the PCA or other strict Westminster churches. E.g. as far as I know they still accept ordination of women.

 

[tulipbee]

Do they have a posted statement of faith at their web site that you can review? If they are "strict" as you say, I suspect they may have positions on exclusive psalmody, closed Tables, a KJV focus, head coverings for women, and so on.

As usual with the Reformed, there is Reformed and then there is "truly" Reformed.

I do not know the church group as it is a broadly used title. Now Trinity CRC is a Three Forms of Unity group, but I do not think that is the church you are mentioning.

I didn't know Westminiter Confession spoke of head coverings for women.

 

[tulipbee]

My guess was right then... the first of those is part of the RPCNA (which dhh712 is a member of). The RPCNA is very much on the strongly conservative end of the Presbyterian spectrum: Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The second of those has no "what we believe" section on the website, but I see that it's part of the ECO (indeed, Jim Singleton, the former pastor, was a leading figure in the formation of the ECO): ECO (denomination) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The ECO is a recent split from the PCUSA triggered by the issue of non-celibate gay and lesbian clergy (but involving a wide range of other issues). Theologically, I believe that the ECO sits somewhere between the PCUSA and the more conservative Presbyterian denominations -- but they are probably still working out exactly where.

ECO will always be known as it started with gay issues. Later down the road, culture will change and young kids will grow up wondering how ECO was created and by then ECO would be embarrased on thier histories. Traditional Presbyterians would have long moved on to more important issues.