Reformed, Presbyterian and the Westminster Confession

Radagast

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The ECO uses the PCUSA book of confessions. This means that they aren't strictly Westminster Confession. They're from the conservative end of the PCUSA, but I doubt that most of them are quite at the level of the PCA or other strict Westminster churches. E.g. as far as I know they still accept ordination of women.

The ECO has outlined a plan for "Ongoing Theological Conversations." It's not at all clear where that road will take them, but probably further from the PCUSA than when they started.

Their founding documents make reference to the "infallible Scriptures," to "God choos[ing] us for Himself in grace before the foundation of the world," and to strong statements about Jesus being God.

The ECO does indeed accept ordination of women. AFAIK, that's what ruled out them merging with, say, the PCA.
 
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hedrick

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The ECO has outlined a plan for "Ongoing Theological Conversations." It's not at all clear where that road will take them, but probably further from the PCUSA than when they started.

Their founding documents make reference to the "infallible Scriptures," to "God choos[ing] us for Himself in grace before the foundation of the world," and to strong statements about Jesus being God.

The ECO does indeed accept ordination of women. AFAIK, that's what ruled out them merging with, say, the PCA.

It will be interesting to see how it develops. I note that infallibility is a broader term than inerrancy. Also, I don't see them say Jesus is God. That is common in evangelical popular theology but isn't a typical confessional statement. Their statement on the Incarnation is one I'd expect from a traditional Reformed group.

It will be interesting to see how things develop. I'm not aware of any groups that believe in inerrancy as it's normally used today and also ordain women. In my opinion in 20 years ago group that ordains women will ordain gays. I understand that they're going to be on the conservative end of the PCUSA, but I think the only thing that actually caused the split is ordination of gays. I think a reunion is likely at some point.

However if they truly manage to come up with a more responsive organizational model, that might justify continued separate existence.

-----------

Let me be clear on “Jesus is God.” This statement can definitely be orthodox. It’s just not the way a Reformed group typically speaks. (Google says it occurs 7 times on reformed.org. Of those, most are recent controversial material. Most of the rest are part of another phrase. "Son of God" occurs 340 times.) Why not? To some extent tradition, I suppose. To some extent we try to use Biblical language. “Jesus is the Son of God” is more typical. But today, when you say Jesus, people think of the 1st Cent carpenter. The early councils tell us that in Christ there is a distinct human will and distinct human action. To me, and I think many others, the name Jesus typically points to the human life of the Logos. Saying that he is God is defensible, due to the personal union and the communication of attributes. But still, the obvious meaning suggests a monothelite or other docetic approach. Indeed I think such an understanding may be common. At any rate, Reformed confessional statements typically use slightly more indirect language.
 
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BryanW92

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In my opinion in 20 years ago group that ordains women will ordain gays.

I share that opinion. When my wife found our current church through her Stephen Ministry network, I cautioned her that this church does not permit women to be Elders, laity or ordained, and would this be a problem for her in the future. She replied, "That means they won't ordain gays either."

She'll be commissioned as a Stephen Minister right after we join next weekend and it will be years before I'll be considered for becoming an Elder, so she already has a purpose in the church and I'm just a pew-warmer (which is the opposite of our situation in our old UM church).
 
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Radagast

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Let me be clear on “Jesus is God.” This statement can definitely be orthodox.

This is a Nicene Christian Trinitarian forum. Of course it's orthodox! :doh:

And as to how Reformed groups speak, this is the Belgic Confession:

"Article 10: That Jesus Christ is true and eternal God: We believe that Jesus Christ, according to his divine nature, is the only begotten Son of God, begotten from eternity, not made nor created (for then he should be a creature), but co-essential and co-eternal with the Father, the express image of his person, and the brightness of his glory, equal unto him in all things. He is the Son of God, not only from the time that he assumed our nature, but from all eternity, as these testimonies, when compared together, teach us. Moses saith, that God created the world; and John saith, that all things were made by that Word, which he calleth God. And the apostle saith, that God make the worlds by his Son; likewise, that God created all things by Jesus Christ. Therefore it must needs follow, that he, who is called God, the Word, the Son, and Jesus Christ, did exist at that time, when all things were created by him. Therefore the prophet Micah saith, His goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. And the apostle: He hath neither beginning of days, nor end of life. He therefore is that true, eternal, and almighty God, whom we invoke, worship and serve."

This is completely consistent with the Creed:

"We believe in ... One Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Only-Begotten, Begotten of the Father before all ages. Light of Light; True God of True God; Begotten, not made; of one essence with the Father; by whom all things were made; ...."

The ECO seems to be reinforcing traditional Trinitarian belief (as against some statements from inside the PCUSA) when their founding document writes:

"Jesus Christ is both truly God and truly human. As to His divinity, He is the Son, the second person of the Trinity, being of one substance with the Father; as to His humanity, He is like us in every way but sin, of one substance with us, like us in having both a human soul and a human body. As to His divinity, He is eternally begotten of the Father; as to His humanity, He is born of the virgin Mary, conceived by the Holy Spirit. As to His divinity, His glory fills heaven and earth; as to His humanity, His glory is shown in the form of a suffering servant, most clearly when He is lifted up on the cross in our place."
 
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hedrick

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This is a Nicene Christian Trinitarian forum. Of course it's orthodox! :doh:

And as to how Reformed groups speak, this is the Belgic Confession:

Your examples make my point. They call Jesus Christ the Son of God. They call Jesus Christ God and man. They do not make the simple statement Jesus is God.

I only mentioned it because you originally said that the ECO called Jesus God. Perhaps I'm being too picky, but that is not normal Reformed terminology, and in fact they don't use it.

I am not denying Chalcedon. Simply making an observation on Reformed terminology. Does it have any theological significance? I'm not sure. Part of my problem is that I'm most familiar with Reformed confessions. I don't know whether this is specifically a Reformed issue, or whether traditional Christian theology didn't normally say "Jesus is God" until the 20th Cent ideological battles. I'd be interested in any data anyone has.
 
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Radagast

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I don't know whether this is specifically a Reformed issue, or whether traditional Christian theology didn't normally say "Jesus is God" until the 20th Cent ideological battles.

"True God of True God," the Creed says. If you're talking about the exact English phrase "Jesus is God," it goes back at least as far as theological debates of the 1700s -- here, for example.
 
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hedrick

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"True God of True God," the Creed says. If you're talking about the exact English phrase "Jesus is God," it goes back at least as far as theological debates of the 1700s -- here, for example.

No, your quotation says "the Son, or Word, or Christ Jesus is God."

I'm talking about the unqualified statement "Jesus is God."
 
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hedrick

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... which occurs here, for example.

OK, you found it. Once embedded in hundreds of pages of the most remarkable drivel, written (or at least quoted) by John Locke. The quotation appears to be from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Edwards_(divine), except that there was an accusation that it was plagiarized from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Edwards_(academic).

Not exactly a Reformed confessional document, but I admit the phrase was used at least once before the 20th Cent.
 
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Radagast

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OK, you found it. Once embedded in hundreds of pages of the most remarkable drivel, written (or at least quoted) by John Locke. The quotation appears to be from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Edwards_(divine), except that there was an accusation that it was plagiarized from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Edwards_(academic).

Not exactly a Reformed confessional document, but I admit the phrase was used at least once before the 20th Cent.

More than once. See here.
 
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BryanW92

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No, your quotation says "the Son, or Word, or Christ Jesus is God."

I'm talking about the unqualified statement "Jesus is God."

What is wrong with that statement? It isn't saying "Jesus is nothing but God" or "Jesus is God only". Or is that what some people mean when they say "Jesus is God"?

I've said it before in response to a person who says that Jesus was a great man, a great philosopher, and nothing more. I didn't mean that he was not a great man or a great philosopher. I just mean that Jesus is God first.
 
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Radagast

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I've said it before in response to a person who says that Jesus was a great man, a great philosopher, and nothing more.

That is of course the common heresy of today.

I like to quote Lewis: "I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: 'I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God.' That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic--on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg--or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronising nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to."
 
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hedrick

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What is wrong with that statement? It isn't saying "Jesus is nothing but God" or "Jesus is God only". Or is that what some people mean when they say "Jesus is God"?

I've said it before in response to a person who says that Jesus was a great man, a great philosopher, and nothing more. I didn't mean that he was not a great man or a great philosopher. I just mean that Jesus is God first.

I'm not sure anything is wrong with it. But the usual NT statement is that Jesus is the Son of God.

Why is it most common to use this kind of indirect language? Why say, most of the time, that Jesus is the Son of God rather than simply that Jesus is God?

I think the reason is, as noted above, that for most people when we speak of Jesus we're speaking of the human whose life we read about in the Gospels. But according to classical theology, in Christ we have two things, which shouldn't be confused with each other. We have a fully human nature, that lived a fully human life, and God. Thus when we look at the human, we're seeing a human that is hypostatically united to God, not God directly. If what people think of when you mention Jesus is the human then it's misleading to say simply that he is God.

There's a possible objection to this. It is that if you take the personal union seriously, there isn't a separate human person. Since there's no separate human person, the name Jesus can't refer to a human being, but has to refer directly to the Logos.

However I think it's hard to read the NT and think that there's no human being. I would suggest that the later Christological councils, particularly dealing with the monothelite heresy, ended up attributing to the human nature everything that modern thought considers necessary for a person. I would suggest that most people would say that if there is a distinct human will and a distinct human life, that we've got an actual human being, even if it isn't a separate hypostasis.

So I would argue that it is orthodox to say that there was an actual human being named Jesus. I think if you say that, then from the point of view of Chalcedon, you have to say that this Jesus is united with the Logos to form a single person, but that it is misleading to say that Jesus simply is God. This is reflected in the fact that both the NT and Reformed tradition don't commonly say simply "Jesus is God." They make more carefully qualified statements.

[later note: because of another thread I've checked more of Sproul's writings. I now think he used some confusing language, but that he is substantially orthodox on the Incarnation. However it is still the case that other traditions typically often think that Reformed theology sees more distinction between the human and divine persons than is typical.]

Furthermore, I note that Reformed theology tends to push the full human existence of Jesus harder than some traditions, to the extent that other traditions have at times called Reformed Nestorian. We once had a dialog in CF about whether R C Sproul was in fact Nestorian, and I think many of the participants (including me) concluded that he probably was. That's why I've asked specifically about the language as used by the Reformed tradition. The Reformed tradition considers itself orthodox, but has a slightly different emphasis from many Christologies. Do a web search for "reformed nestorian" to see some of the discussions. I think it would be odd for someone who is Reformed to deny that Jesus refers to an actual human being.

(Here's the statement by Sproul: http://www.ligonier.org/blog/it-accurate-say-god-died-cross/. Many of us found the statement that the atonement was made specifically by the human nature of Christ very weird. However I reconsidered since that discussion. At any rate, this is actually a standard Reformed viewpoint. Nor is that statement the only reason for saying that Reformed Christology has a slightly different emphasis from others.)
 
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BryanW92

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I'm not sure anything is wrong with it. But the usual NT statement is that Jesus is the Son of God.

Why is it most common to use this kind of indirect language? Why say, most of the time, that Jesus is the Son of God rather than simply that Jesus is God?

I think the reason is, as noted above, that for most people when we speak of Jesus we're speaking of the human whose life we read about in the Gospels. But according to classical theology, in Christ we have two things, which shouldn't be confused with each other. We have a fully human nature, that lived a fully human life, and God. Thus when we look at the human, we're seeing a human that is hypostatically united to God, not God directly. If what people think of when you mention Jesus is the human then it's misleading to say simply that he is God.

I think that, in our post-christian culture, people just don't have the religious training that earlier generations recieved by default. If you told those generations that Jesus is the Son of God, they understood the Trinity enough to know what that meant.

But today, people take the "Son of God" title and use it to create all sorts of humanist theories. Calling him the Son of God in this culture does not remind the people strongly enough that he is also God. So to avoid a lengthy debate over the meaning of "Son of God", we get lazy and just say that he is God to establish that as a baseline for explaining that he did not come to earth to offer suggestions and philosophies for a happy life on earth.
 
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BryanW92

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Furthermore, I note that Reformed theology tends to push the full human existence of Jesus harder than some traditions, to the extent that other traditions have at times called Reformed Nestorian. We once had a dialog in CF about whether R C Sproul was in fact Nestorian, and I think many of the participants (including me) concluded that he probably was. That's why I've asked specifically about the language as used by the Reformed tradition. The Reformed tradition considers itself orthodox, but has a slightly different emphasis from many Christologies. Do a web search for "reformed nestorian" to see some of the discussions. I think it would be odd for someone who is Reformed to deny that Jesus refers to an actual human being.

(Here's the statement by Sproul: Did God Die on the Cross? by R.C. Sproul | Ligonier Ministries Blog. Many of us found the statement that the atonement was made specifically by the human nature of Christ very weird. However I reconsidered since that discussion. At any rate, this is actually a standard Reformed viewpoint. Nor is that statement the only reason for saying that Reformed Christology has a slightly different emphasis from others.)

That's really interesting. I'll look into it. I admit that I've been reading and listening to Sproul quite a bit since I started investigating Reformed Theology just because he is so prolific and everything he says does make sense to me (as a person who was a staunch Wesleyan a year ago and thought that Calvinism was wrong in every way).
 
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hedrick

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That's really interesting. I'll look into it. I admit that I've been reading and listening to Sproul quite a bit since I started investigating Reformed Theology just because he is so prolific and everything he says does make sense to me (as a person who was a staunch Wesleyan a year ago and thought that Calvinism was wrong in every way).

This is an area where there's lots of controversy. Just how distinct was historical Reformed theology? There are claims of outright Nestorianism.

It seems clear that Calvin was more comfortable with Biblical categories than person and nature. But he certainly endorsed Chalcedon. There seems to be a difference in the way the communication of attributes is understood, with Reformed less willing to apply divine attributes to the human. But it's a complex argument on which you'll want to make your own judgement.

But my judgement is that "Jesus is God" is currently used as a touchstone of orthodoxy by evangelicals, and not Reformed. Not that it can't be explained in an orthodox way, but that it's not a natural way in which Reformed would state things. Reformed are more likely to see Christ as a "compound" of the Logos and a human being -- though of course not a human "person." Athanasius, by contrast, tended so see Christ as the Logos who acted sometimes as God and sometimes through a human body (to the extent that many of us think he was actually Apollinarian), but as a single "actor," so to speak. For him I think it would be nonsense to say that the atonement is specifically an act of the human, though I should probably check that, since for him there was just one actor, using the body almost as an instrument. In many discussions (though not typically Reformed) the hypostatic union is seen as saying that there's only one hypostasis, and it is specifically the hypostasis of the Logos. Hence the term "anhypostasia" for the fact that there is no human hypostasis. Reformed Christology tends to treat divine and human more symmetrically, thus giving a bit more independence to the human. At least that's the way I see it, though others would probably disagree.
 
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Radagast

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But my judgement is that "Jesus is God" is currently used as a touchstone of orthodoxy by evangelicals, and not Reformed.

I would describe myself as both evangelical and Reformed.

I note that the ECO group that left the PCUSA calls itself "A Covenant Order of Evangelical Presbyterians" and that other churches exist with names like Evangelical Presbyterian Church and Communion of Reformed Evangelical Churches -- so the two words can hardly be incompatible.
 
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BryanW92

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This is an area where there's lots of controversy. Just how distinct was historical Reformed theology? There are claims of outright Nestorianism.

It seems clear that Calvin was more comfortable with Biblical categories than person and nature. But he certainly endorsed Chalcedon. There seems to be a difference in the way the communication of attributes is understood, with Reformed less willing to apply divine attributes to the human. But it's a complex argument on which you'll want to make your own judgement.

But my judgement is that "Jesus is God" is currently used as a touchstone of orthodoxy by evangelicals, and not Reformed. Not that it can't be explained in an orthodox way, but that it's not a natural way in which Reformed would state things. Reformed are more likely to see Christ as a "compound" of the Logos and a human being -- though of course not a human "person." Athanasius, by contrast, tended so see Christ as the Logos who acted sometimes as God and sometimes through a human body (to the extent that many of us think he was actually Apollinarian), but as a single "actor," so to speak. For him I think it would be nonsense to say that the atonement is specifically an act of the human, though I should probably check that, since for him there was just one actor, using the body almost as an instrument. In many discussions (though not typically Reformed) the hypostatic union is seen as saying that there's only one hypostasis, and it is specifically the hypostasis of the Logos. Hence the term "anhypostasia" for the fact that there is no human hypostasis. Reformed Christology tends to treat divine and human more symmetrically, thus giving a bit more independence to the human. At least that's the way I see it, though others would probably disagree.

If you see me saying that "Jesus is God", know that I mean "fully God and fully man". I'm having a hard enough time understanding Reformed theology to start dividing Jesus into pieces. :)
 
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hedrick

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If you see me saying that "Jesus is God", know that I mean "fully God and fully man". I'm having a hard enough time understanding Reformed theology to start dividing Jesus into pieces. :)

Reformed theology pushes the distinction a bit further than others. But even so, normal orthodox theology has two pieces for Christ. "Piece" isn't, of course the official term, but still, Christ is composite. He has two natures.

The history is a bit complicated. Chalcedon said "two natures in one hypostasis.” But what does that mean? There were a set of later decisions fleshing it out.

First, in the second council of Constantinople, Theodore of Mopsuestia was ruled to be heretical, even though Chalcedon itself was arguably designed to be acceptable to moderates of both Alexandrian and Antiochene approaches, which would have included him. Theodore tended to emphasize the distinctness of the human and divine. It was said that he taught only a “moral union,” though he disagreed.

But then the opposite problem developed. In the third council of Constantinople, the "monothelite" view was ruled to be heretical. The monothelites said that Christ had only one will. The council said that this was docetic. If Christ is truly human he has to have everything that a human has, including a will. So in Christ there is a human will that is separate from the will of the Logos, and also that Christ took distinct human actions. In my earlier terms, this can make Christ look like two separate actors, the Logos and a human, though I think it can be interpreted so this is not the case.

Is that what the fathers at Chalcedon intended? It's hard to know. The two-nature language came from Antiochene views such as Theodore, even though Theodore was ruled to be a heretic. So there's a pretty good argument that Constantinople 3 is a correct interpretation of Chalcedon.

So what are we left with? We now have two natures, each with their own will, taking their own actions, that form a single hypostasis. But just what does the hypostatic union mean?

With Athanasius the unity is quite clear. He saw the Logos as the only subject in Christ. It was always the Logos acting, but sometimes he acted through his human body.

But once you say that there is a separate human will and separate human actions, things get very interesting, even though they are united in one person. The problem is that what most normal people mean by "person" is an entity with its own will that acts and interacts with other people. But by that definition, there would be a separate human person. The hypostatic union begins to look pretty thin.

[later note: because of another thread I've checked more of Sproul's writings. I now think he used some confusing language, but that he is substantially orthodox on the Incarnation. Thus some of the following comments are probably wrong. However it is still the case that other traditions typically often think that Reformed theology sees more distinction between the human and divine persons than is typical. I do still think that the traditional Reformed approach would benefit by being supplemented -- but not necessarily replaced -- with N T Wright's understanding of the Incarnation.]

This is the background of the Reformed approach, which leads Sproul (and others) to say "The atonement was made by the human nature of Christ," because of course God can't die. "It’s the God-man Who dies, but death is something that is experienced only by the human nature, because the divine nature isn’t capable of experiencing death." This is pushing things fairly far in the direction of making Christ two actors.

To me this is kind of a reductio ad absurdum of this approach, since the whole point of the Incarnation for the early Church was that salvation is something that neither God nor a human being can do alone. But we're not dealing here with some kind of PCUSA liberal thing. We're dealing with the implications of the ecumenical councils, drawn by orthodox Reformed writers. Of course not all theologians draw the same conclusions. But I think Reformed theology is right, to a point. I just think it left something out.

My resolution is to start with the Reformed dedication to seeing Jesus as a real human being, in accordance of Constantinople 3, but add to it that there is a unity of action in Christ. Of course Jesus has a distinct human will and thus takes real human actions. But every action of Christ is both an action of the human Jesus and of the Logos.

Thus I would replace, or possibly explain, the statement that Christ is a single hypostasis with the statement that he is a single actor. In particular, Jesus’ death is also the death of the Logos, because the fullness of God is present in Jesus, and he is acting not just as a human, but as God. Thus salvation is a divine-human act.
 
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BryanW92

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I'm not disagreeing with you, but how does the "death of the Logos" work? Jesus said that the thief would be with him in heaven that day. He returned to earth 3 days later after a trip to hell.

To me, it sounds like the death on the cross separated the man from the God. One died and one moved on. Then the body of the man is taken up and restored and the two are rejoined.

Also, prior to his birth the Logos did exist without the man, although possible Christophanies did occur in scripture when the God and man were joined.

It seems that the human Jesus comes and goes, but the Logos is eternal.
 
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