Redefining God's Word

[Brieuse]

What, spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ is a bad thing? People did this so others could know Jesus in their own language. I think THAT is beautiful. You just sound like you're defending your sin. Denouncing the word is a common tactic.

Well, I am defending myself because you continue to insist a sin exists when it doesn't.

Where did I say spreading the Gospel is a bad thing?

 

[Ohioprof]

How? Maybe you can answer the question in that post?
Btw, I don't think just having the attraction is sinful, it's when you get in bed when the wrong is done..

You are being judgmental of others. Jesus had something to say about that.

 

[Ohioprof]

What, spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ is a bad thing? People did this so others could know Jesus in their own language. I think THAT is beautiful. You just sound like you're defending your sin. Denouncing the word is a common tactic.

Brieuse did not say that spreading the Gospel is a bad thing.

I tend to think that it is often a bad thing. I think people should quit trying to get other people to convert to their religion and simply respect religious pluralism. But people are free to annoy others with their religious beliefs if they want to. That's just my opinion, and I am not Brieuse.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear Ohioprof,

You are being judgmental of others. Jesus had something to say about that.

Could you give us a source for that please

 

[Ohioprof]

Dear Ohioprof,
Could you give us a source for that please

Bible scholars who subscribe to the 2-source hypothesis generally see the passages in Matthew and Luke that quote Jesus saying that we should "judge not" as originating in the Q gospel. But this idea of not judging others was common in rabbinical sayings during the era of Jesus. The scholars of the Jesus Seminar agree that the admonition to "Judge not lest ye be judged" is probably not something Jesus actually said. But they do think the quotations attributed to Jesus in both Matthew and Luke about noticing the sliver in your friend's eye while overlooking the timber in your own eye may be directly from Jesus. Of course scholars don't know for sure.

 

[Apollo Celestio]

I didn't judge anyone. Only thing I said that could maybe judge is saying that homosexual sex is sinful.

They then proceed to compose "easier to understand" versions for those that are most certainly unwilling to understand the real context. Who is redefining the Word?

I guess this is where I got that impression.

I tend to think that it is often a bad thing. I think people should quit trying to get other people to convert to their religion and simply respect religious pluralism. But people are free to annoy others with their religious beliefs if they want to. That's just my opinion, and I am not Brieuse.

Heh, you sound like an atheist. (I know you aren't one, but I read/hear this all the time.)

 

[Ohioprof]

I didn't judge anyone. Only thing I said that could maybe judge is saying that homosexual sex is sinful.


I guess this is where I got that impression.

Heh, you sound like an atheist. (I know you aren't one, but I read/hear this all the time.)

I am not an atheist. I believe in NOT pushing one's own religion on other people. I tell folks what my faith is in these forums because that is what they are for, and here we each need to talk about our faith in order to explain the source of our thinking about gay people.

I think you are judging. To try to claim that you judge only gay sex but not gay people is disingenuous. I am baffled, frankly, by the focus of anti-gay Christians on sex. I am gay. My life is not focused on sex. My being gay is not primarily about sex. Indeed, I don't even have sex. But that is irrelevant, really. Our relationships are love relationships. Our relationships are family relationships. When you think about your marriage, do you think of it only as about sex? I doubt it. Gay people are no different.

When you judge "gay sex," which seems to be something a lot of fundamentalist Christians obsess about in their minds and imaginations for some reason, you are really judging people. You should admit that. I feel judged by you. And I don't like it. Who are YOU to judge me? And please don't give me that nonsense about how it isn't you who is judging me; it's God. That's absurd. When you level judgments, it's YOU doing the judging, not God. So please do not pretend to speak for God. It's YOUR prejudice talking, not God.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear Ohioprof,

Bible scholars who subscribe to the 2-source hypothesis generally see the passages in Matthew and Luke that quote Jesus saying that we should "judge not" as originating in the Q gospel. But this idea of not judging others was common in rabbinical sayings during the era of Jesus. The scholars of the Jesus Seminar agree that the admonition to "Judge not lest ye be judged" is probably not something Jesus actually said. But they do think the quotations attributed to Jesus in both Matthew and Luke about noticing the sliver in your friend's eye while overlooking the timber in your own eye may be directly from Jesus. Of course scholars don't know for sure.

Ok well firstly you dont belieev the Bible so I cant see why you cite it to us. Secondly, what you cite you also have doubts in, and thirdly if we dont have the same religion as you why should we be expected not to judge according to your religion?

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear Ohioprof,
For Christians 'gay sex' is a sin. Christians are not in a position to judge people whether 'gay people' or 'straight people' becuase Jesus Christ died for all, but Christians have to know the sins we are saved from which we need to repent of.
What you are doing is telling Christians that they must do what your religion believes.

 

[Ohioprof]

Dear Ohioprof,
Ok well firstly you dont belieev the Bible so I cant see why you cite it to us. Secondly, what you cite you also have doubts in, and thirdly if we dont have the same religion as you why should we be expected not to judge according to your religion?

You asked for a citation. Plus, I did not say that I "don't believe the Bible." I have said the Bible is not the word of God, in my view. I have also said that the Bible is a useful historical source, but it must be used carefully. We need to consider carefully what statements attributed to Jesus in the Bible he probably really said and what he probably did not say. We need to use other sources as well, such as the sayings in the Gospel of Thomas.

The Gospels in the Bible are not entirely wrong, necessarily....they are like any historical source, and they must be evaluated critically.

Yes, there is always doubt when we rely on quotations from sources dating back as far as the Gospels. That's why I say that Jesus "probably" said such and such or "may have said" such and such.

I don't understand your third point in this post.

 

[Ohioprof]

Dear Ohioprof,
For Christians 'gay sex' is a sin. Christians are not in a position to judge people whether 'gay people' or 'straight people' becuase Jesus Christ died for all, but Christians have to know the sins we are saved from which we need to repent of.
What you are doing is telling Christians that they must do what your religion believes.

No, the truth is that some Christians regard gay sex as a sin. Not all Christians agree with that.

And, unfortunately, too many Christians denigrate gay people and treat gay people badly, and then try to claim that they "love the sinner, hate the sin." That's mostly nonsense, in my view.

If it were really just a matter of hating the "sin," then Christians would be no more focused on denouncing the alleged "sin" of having a same-sex relationship than they are focused on denouncing the "sin" of divorce. But that's not what we see. Christians mostly accept divorce and leave divorced people alone, while some continue to hound gay people for our alleged "sin." Perhaps that's because it's easier to point fingers at other people for doing something you'd never want to do than it is to point fingers at people who are doing something you have done or may choose to do in the future, like divorce.

 

[DesignerNate]

No, the truth is that some Christians regard gay sex as a sin. Not all Christians agree with that.

And, unfortunately, too many Christians denigrate gay people and treat gay people badly, and then try to claim that they "love the sinner, hate the sin." That's mostly nonsense, in my view.

If it were really just a matter of hating the "sin," then Christians would be no more focused on denouncing the alleged "sin" of having a same-sex relationship than they are focused on denouncing the "sin" of divorce. But that's not what we see. Christians mostly accept divorce and leave divorced people alone, while some continue to hound gay people for our alleged "sin." Perhaps that's because it's easier to point fingers at other people for doing something you'd never want to do than it is to point fingers at people who are doing something you have done or may choose to do in the future, like divorce.

You bring up some very valid points, all so often Christians who don't directly deal with Homosexuality can easily cast it aside as being sin, it does after all only affect a small percent of the population (lol, MUCH MUCH lower than divorce rates). I get hurt when I see many Christians do this, not because its something i feel they need to think is right, but I wish more people cared about where peoples hearts are.

 

[Apollo Celestio]

I am not an atheist. I believe in NOT pushing one's own religion on other people. I tell folks what my faith is in these forums because that is what they are for, and here we each need to talk about our faith in order to explain the source of our thinking about gay people.

I think you are judging. To try to claim that you judge only gay sex but not gay people is disingenuous. I am baffled, frankly, by the focus of anti-gay Christians on sex. I am gay. My life is not focused on sex. My being gay is not primarily about sex. Indeed, I don't even have sex. But that is irrelevant, really. Our relationships are love relationships. Our relationships are family relationships. When you think about your marriage, do you think of it only as about sex? I doubt it. Gay people are no different.

When you judge "gay sex," which seems to be something a lot of fundamentalist Christians obsess about in their minds and imaginations for some reason, you are really judging people. You should admit that. I feel judged by you. And I don't like it. Who are YOU to judge me? And please don't give me that nonsense about how it isn't you who is judging me; it's God. That's absurd. When you level judgments, it's YOU doing the judging, not God. So please do not pretend to speak for God. It's YOUR prejudice talking, not God.

The sex is the sin, all the other relationship stuff isn't. You don't need to be married to do all that though. I'm not judging you, because while you may preach a different gospel, you are not guilty of that sin.

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

How do you argue the sinfulness of an action with someone who doesn't believe that the Holy Bible is the inspired word of God?

Easy, you don't.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear Ohioprof,

No, the truth is that some Christians regard gay sex as a sin. Not all Christians agree with that.

no the truth is all Christians agree that gay sex is error because all Christians believe the testimony of the Bible.. (see dictionary definition I gave) You keep putting forward your view but it doesn’t match mine, the Bible, the dictionary, or what Christians have agreed over the centuries.

And, unfortunately, too many Christians denigrate gay people and treat gay people badly, and then try to claim that they "love the sinner, hate the sin." That's mostly nonsense, in my view.

No again that’s your false definition again as I don’t believe a true Christian can denigrate anyone and treat them badly, these ‘Christians’ you refer to may have the same false self-definition you have.

If it were really just a matter of hating the "sin," then Christians would be no more focused on denouncing the alleged "sin" of having a same-sex relationship than they are focused on denouncing the "sin" of divorce.

That’s right, so you accept divorce and same-sex sex are sin.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear Ohioprof,

You asked for a citation.

I asked for a citation to support your comment.
Your comment was

You are being judgmental of others. Jesus had something to say about that.

So then you told me

Judge not lest ye be judged" is probably not something Jesus actually said.

Ok so why do you personally think judging others is wrong, regardless of what you don’t believe Jesus said, and why do you think you should therefore expect others to believe the same?

 

[davedjy]

no the truth is all Christians agree that gay sex is error because all Christians believe the testimony of the Bible.

This isn't accurate, there are plenty of Christian churches that affirm gays and lesbians, and have a different theology on the "clobber passages". Mr. Pirate and myself and brought great attention and detail to these very credible interpretations.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear Davedjy,

This isn't accurate, there are plenty of Christian churches that affirm gays and lesbians, and have a different theology on the "clobber passages".

No that’s your opinion of what churches are, not mine. You have seen the dictionary and Bibilcal definitions of Christian, it is someone who believes the OT and NT testimony of Jesus Christ, both of which clearly state that God’s purpose in creation is man and woman together in faithful union (Gen 2, Matt 19, Mark 10, Eph 5, 1 Cor 7) and that same-sex sex is error (Gen 19, Lev 18 & 20, 1 Cor 6, 1 Tim 1, Romans 1, 2 Peter 2, Jude1) All you have done so far is tell me you don’t believe the Bible.

 

[davedjy]

c

Dear Davedjy,
No that’s your opinion of what churches are, not mine. You have seen the dictionary and Bibilcal definitions of Christian, it is someone who believes the OT and NT testimony of Jesus Christ, both of which clearly state that God’s purpose in creation is man and woman together in faithful union (Gen 2, Matt 19, Mark 10, Eph 5, 1 Cor 7) and that same-sex sex is error (Gen 19, Lev 18 & 20, 1 Cor 6, 1 Tim 1, Romans 1, 2 Peter 2, Jude1) All you have done so far is tell me you don’t believe the Bible.

Again, that is your interpretation of us Gay Christians not believing in the Bible, but we certainly do. We don't agree those clobber passages condemn monogamous, same sex relationships. Mr. Pirate brought an EXCELLENT theology proof on the Leviticus passages.

Btw, Gen 19, Leviticus, 1 Tim, 2 Peter 2, and Jude 1 are NOT even debatable among the Scholars as passages for homosexuality. It all boils down to Romans 1, AND THAT'S IT!

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

Btw, Gen 19, Leviticus, 1 Tim, 2 Peter 2, and Jude 1 are NOT even debatable among the Scholars as passages for homosexuality. It all boils down to Romans 1, AND THAT'S IT!

hi dave,

How exactly do you know what the scholars debate?