Redefining God's Word

[Phinehas2]

Dear Ohioprof,

I recommend that to be consistent, Christians do likewise with gay people.....leave gay people alone.

Some gay people are Christians.But what makes them gay is that have same-sex attraction, but what makes them Christians is their faith in Jesus Christ, and that includes their faith in His teaching that same-sex sex is error.

Phineas brought up the question of how Christians should then treat thieves and murderers.

No I didn’t’. I questioned another poster’s implied proposition that sin should be accepted.

Of course there is certainly no comparison between being in a committed same-sex relationship and murdering someone.

except that Jesus says fornication and adultery which break marriage are sin like murder. Matth 15 & Mark 7. SO I disagree.

But I as a Christian believe in being loving toward all people, even toward those who murder, because God loves all people.

But your definitions so far don’t match the definitions of Christian according to the Bible or the dictionary or the churches throughout history. But I know God loves all people from the Biblical testimony, how do you know?

Of course, it's up to each individual to decide how he or she will act to be consistent with his or her faith. I can't force other Christians to refrain from pointing fingers or throwing stones at gay people. I can only urge them to stop. What they choose to do us up to them.

I cant stop people claiming they are Christian claiming same-sex sex is not a sin and claiming Christians point fingers at them, but I can point out why that’s all wrong, which I have done.

You continue to get hung up on the dictionary, as though the dictionary is God or the law or something.

On the contrary I don’t get hung up on the dictionary and as I have explained its secular, and the Bible is God’s word. Have you not been reading my posts?

 

[Ohioprof]

Dear Ohioprof,
Some gay people are Christians.But what makes them gay is that have same-sex attraction, but what makes them Christians is their faith in Jesus Christ, and that includes their faith in His teaching that same-sex sex is error.

No I didn’t’. I questioned another poster’s implied proposition that sin should be accepted.
except that Jesus says fornication and adultery which break marriage are sin like murder. Matth 15 & Mark 7. SO I disagree.
But your definitions so far don’t match the definitions of Christian according to the Bible or the dictionary or the churches throughout history. But I know God loves all people from the Biblical testimony, how do you know?

I cant stop people claiming they are Christian claiming same-sex sex is not a sin and claiming Christians point fingers at them, but I can point out why that’s all wrong, which I have done.

You continue to get hung up on the dictionary, as though the dictionary is God or the law or something.

On the contrary I don’t get hung up on the dictionary and as I have explained its secular, and the Bible is God’s word. Have you not been reading my posts?

I have been reading your posts, and you keep citing the dictionary for some reason.

You also seem to have adopted a litmus test for being a Christian, which is that a true Christian must believe that same-sex sex is an "error."

I think that's a pretty weird litmus test, and I reject it.

 

[Ohioprof]

Oh, I missed a question of yours in there. You asked how I know that God loves everyone? Because I believe that God is love....I am a Universalist, and a Universalist principle is that God is love. This idea is central to my personal set of beliefs.

 

[RMDY]

You know what is stupid: when we judge the bible from the world's perspective and give doubt the advantage because of sexuality.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear Ohioprof,

I cant stop people claiming they are Christian claiming same-sex sex is not a sin and claiming Christians point fingers at them, but I can point out why that’s all wrong, which I have done.

Ok that’s what we are debating, what people claim.

You also seem to have adopted a litmus test for being a Christian, which is that a true Christian must believe that same-sex sex is an "error."

Based on the definition of Christian yes, Christians believe in the Bible, the OT and NT. The Bible

I think that's a pretty weird litmus test, and I reject it.

Ok. I reject your definition.

But you still haven’t addressed my question in response to your comment. You proposed that imperfections should be accepted, yet you haven’t told me whether imperfections such as murder, greed and theft etc are to be accepted under your worldview. I suspect you wouldn’t accept them and you are assuming same-sex sex isn’t a sin, if so please don’t make such an assumption while we are discussing whether it is a sin or not, or clearly distance it from the Christian worldview. Otherwise all that happens is you end up attacking the Christian worldview. As I said some gay people are Christians, but what makes them gay is that have same-sex attraction, but what makes them Christians is their faith in Jesus Christ, and that includes their faith in His teaching that same-sex sex is error. Gen 19, Lev 18 & 20, judges 19, 1 Cor 6, Romans 1, 1 Tim 1, 2 Peter 2, Jude 1.

 

[MrPirate]

Dear Ohioprof,
Some gay people are Christians.But what makes them gay is that have same-sex attraction, but what makes them Christians is their faith in Jesus Christ, and that includes their faith in His teaching that same-sex sex is error.

Could you site chapter and verse where Jesus said anything about homosexuality…I cannot find any such statements in the bible

No I didn’t’. I questioned another poster’s implied proposition that sin should be accepted.
except that Jesus says fornication and adultery which break marriage are sin like murder. Matth 15 & Mark 7. SO I disagree.

More to the point is your implied comparison between something intrinsic to the individual and criminal activity.

But your definitions so far don’t match the definitions of Christian according to the Bible or the dictionary or the churches throughout history. But I know God loves all people from the Biblical testimony, how do you know?

Considering the history of Christianity and its support of slavery, racism, anti-Semitism, the support of violence against people of other religions…it might be best if we don’t use the church as a yardstick by which to measure morality.

I cant stop people claiming they are Christian claiming same-sex sex is not a sin and claiming Christians point fingers at them, but I can point out why that’s all wrong, which I have done.

Just as others have pointed out that your claims of sin are wrong.

 

[RMDY]

Considering the history of Christianity and its support of slavery, racism, anti-Semitism, the support of violence against people of other religions…it might be best if we don’t use the church as a yardstick by which to measure morality.

It is not our fault such people did those things. So why tie them to us if none of us are like that. It is not our fault if several people made the phrase "homosexuality is a sin" into a symbol of hate.

Symbols are emotionally powerful.
Take the Nazi symbol---the swastika. Before the Nazi's used it, it was an Indian symbol of universal welfare.

Stop prejudging us in this way.

 

[Ohioprof]

Dear Ohioprof,
Ok that’s what we are debating, what people claim.

Based on the definition of Christian yes, Christians believe in the Bible, the OT and NT. The Bible

Ok. I reject your definition.

But you still haven’t addressed my question in response to your comment. You proposed that imperfections should be accepted, yet you haven’t told me whether imperfections such as murder, greed and theft etc are to be accepted under your worldview. I suspect you wouldn’t accept them and you are assuming same-sex sex isn’t a sin, if so please don’t make such an assumption while we are discussing whether it is a sin or not, or clearly distance it from the Christian worldview. Otherwise all that happens is you end up attacking the Christian worldview. As I said some gay people are Christians, but what makes them gay is that have same-sex attraction, but what makes them Christians is their faith in Jesus Christ, and that includes their faith in His teaching that same-sex sex is error. Gen 19, Lev 18 & 20, judges 19, 1 Cor 6, Romans 1, 1 Tim 1, 2 Peter 2, Jude 1.

The first quotation is not mine.

 

[Ohioprof]

It is not our fault such people did those things. So why tie them to us if none of us are like that. It is not our fault if several people made the phrase "homosexuality is a sin" into a symbol of hate.

Symbols are emotionally powerful.
Take the Nazi symbol---the swastika. Before the Nazi's used it, it was an Indian symbol of universal welfare.

Stop prejudging us in this way.

Who is "our?" Whose fault, exactly, is this not?

 

[Ohioprof]

Dear Ohioprof,
Ok that’s what we are debating, what people claim.

Based on the definition of Christian yes, Christians believe in the Bible, the OT and NT. The Bible

Ok. I reject your definition.

But you still haven’t addressed my question in response to your comment. You proposed that imperfections should be accepted, yet you haven’t told me whether imperfections such as murder, greed and theft etc are to be accepted under your worldview. I suspect you wouldn’t accept them and you are assuming same-sex sex isn’t a sin, if so please don’t make such an assumption while we are discussing whether it is a sin or not, or clearly distance it from the Christian worldview. Otherwise all that happens is you end up attacking the Christian worldview. As I said some gay people are Christians, but what makes them gay is that have same-sex attraction, but what makes them Christians is their faith in Jesus Christ, and that includes their faith in His teaching that same-sex sex is error. Gen 19, Lev 18 & 20, judges 19, 1 Cor 6, Romans 1, 1 Tim 1, 2 Peter 2, Jude 1.

Being gay is not an imperfection.

Many Christians reject your anti-gay litmus test for being Christian, because they do not interpret the Bible as you do. Some other Christians, like me, do not believe the Bible is the word of God at all.

I did answer your question. I said that we should let the criminal justice system take care of crimes and criminals. As Christians, I think we are called to love all and to accept all people, including those who sin. Unless you're on a jury, there is no reason to stand in judgment of people who commit crimes. We need only reach out to fellow human beings and love them as our neighbor.

Of course, being gay is NOT a crime, and I think it is NOT a sin. So there is no sin to stand in judgment of.

 

[Ohioprof]

It is not our fault such people did those things. So why tie them to us if none of us are like that. It is not our fault if several people made the phrase "homosexuality is a sin" into a symbol of hate.

Symbols are emotionally powerful.
Take the Nazi symbol---the swastika. Before the Nazi's used it, it was an Indian symbol of universal welfare.

Stop prejudging us in this way.

Many Christians DID support slavery, and they DID use the Bible to try to bolster their pro-slavery case. So to argue that we are not responsible is, frankly, disingenuous. Of course we Christians are responsible for slavery. We are also responsible, to a large degree, for abolishing slavery. Our record has been mixed.

 

[RMDY]

Many Christians DID support slavery, and they DID use the Bible to try to bolster their pro-slavery case. So to argue that we are not responsible is, frankly, disingenuous. Of course we Christians are responsible for slavery. We are also responsible, to a large degree, for abolishing slavery. Our record has been mixed.

Many Christians supported antisemitism in the past
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_antisemitism

The crusades
The Spanish inquisition

There are many things Christians did in the past.
Slavery was around even before the birth of Christ. Before Christians there was the Jews, Romans, Babylon, Assyria, ect.

But yes, slavery in the name of Christ is a nasty sin.




But it doesn't mean I have to suffer judgement for what people did in the past.

 

[MrPirate]

It is not our fault such people did those things. So why tie them to us if none of us are like that.

Because what they did, - use the bible to justify prejudice, hate and discrimination, against various minorities – is exactly what some Christians are doing today, use the bible to justify prejudice, hate and discrimination, against homosexuals. So yes, you are like that. If you find that offensive then I suggest you look at what you are advocating and how you are using the bible to justify it and compare it to those who have done the same to other minorities.

To ignore the past is to be destined to repeat it.

It is not our fault if several people made the phrase "homosexuality is a sin" into a symbol of hate.

Yet it is a statement of hatred

Symbols are emotionally powerful.

Take the Nazi symbol---the swastika. Before the Nazi's used it, it was an Indian symbol of universal welfare.

Non-sequitor

Stop prejudging us in this way.

There is no pre involved here

 

[Ohioprof]

Many Christians supported antisemitism in the past
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_antisemitism

The crusades
The Spanish inquisition

There are many things Christians did in the past.
Slavery was around even before the birth of Christ. Before Christians there was the Jews, Romans, Babylon, Assyria, ect.

But yes, slavery in the name of Christ is a nasty sin.




But it doesn't mean I have to suffer judgement for what people did in the past.

No, but we do have to acknowledge what our ancestors did. I am a Christian too, remember.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear Ohioprof,

Being gay is not an imperfection.

That’s not what I am talking about and it isn’t what was being referred to. What was being referred to was people’s imperfections being accepted., the Biblical references of Jesus teaching is that people’s actions are sin, we were discussing that.

Many Christians reject your anti-gay litmus test for being Christian, because they do not interpret the Bible as you do. Some other Christians, like me, do not believe the Bible is the word of God at all.

I reject your anti-Christian litmus test. According to the dictionary definition they probably aren’t Christians, and that is my definition too. So please don’t iuse that as an argument as we have already discussed definitions of Christians, I dont acccept yours. Take it form me, Christans believe the Bible, I am just one of them.

I did answer your question. I said that we should let the criminal justice system take care of crimes and criminals.

I am referring to God’s justice not the justice of the state.

As Christians, I think we are called to love all and to accept all people, including those who sin. Unless you're on a jury, there is no reason to stand in judgment of people who commit crimes. We need only reach out to fellow human beings and love them as our neighbor.

Christians are commanded to love all people as Jesus loved, that’s different when some people decide to love others according to what they think love is, which is in fact sin.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear Mr Pirate,

Could you site chapter and verse where Jesus said anything about homosexuality…I cannot find any such statements in the bible

Yes I have done, I have given the chapters for better context ..in Matt 19, Mark 10, Eph 5, 1 Cor 6, Jesus NT teaching affirms God’s creation purpose as in Gen 2 for man and woman to be untied. If God’s purpose is woman for man its obviously not man for man, so that excludes same-sex unions. Gen 19, Lev 18 & 20, Judges 19, 1 Cor 6, Romans 1, 1 Tim 1, 2 Peter 2 and Jude 1 either directly or indirectly condemn same-sex sex, which is homosexual practice.
So I have given where Jesus taught about homosexuality, if you don’t believe it that’s your choice.
What I haven’t seen is anywhere where Jesus NT teaching countenances same-sex sex or homosexuality.

More to the point is your implied comparison between something intrinsic to the individual and criminal activity.

No its not implied I have cited what the Bible says is sin and evil, which includes fornication and adultery outside the faithful man/woman marriage… see Matt 19 and Mark 10 again. If we are to accept sex outside marriage to be celebrated, such as same-sex sex, why not slander, murder etc, all based on belief that Jesus speaks the truth as recorded in the Bible off course.

Considering the history of Christianity and its support of slavery, racism, anti-Semitism, the support of violence against people of other religions…it might be best if we don’t use the church as a yardstick by which to measure morality.

Absolutely, that’s why I use the truth of the Bible. Just one point, not all the Christian church supported slavery, an analogy can be made today with some of the church supporting same-sex sex just like some of the church then supported slavery.

 

[RMDY]

Who is "our?" Whose fault, exactly, is this not?

Many Christians DID support slavery, and they DID use the Bible to try to bolster their pro-slavery case. So to argue that we are not responsible is, frankly, disingenuous. Of course we Christians are responsible for slavery. We are also responsible, to a large degree, for abolishing slavery. Our record has been mixed.

Because what they did, - use the bible to justify prejudice, hate and discrimination, against various minorities – is exactly what some Christians are doing today, use the bible to justify prejudice, hate and discrimination, against homosexuals. So yes, you are like that. If you find that offensive then I suggest you look at what you are advocating and how you are using the bible to justify it and compare it to those who have done the same to other minorities.

To ignore the past is to be destined to repeat it.



Yet it is a statement of hatred


Non-sequitor



There is no pre involved here

No, but we do have to acknowledge what our ancestors did. I am a Christian too, remember.

Ohioprof, I know you are a christian.

I said "our" as in you, me, and other people today who follow Christ.

There have been many incidences in the past where people try to use the bible to justify what they do.

Here is an example:
Man uses bible to justify himself for raping women disciples
http://www.rickross.com/reference/kyokai/kyokai5.html

So yes, you are like that. If you find that offensive then I suggest you look at what you are advocating and how you are using the bible to justify it and compare it to those who have done the same to other minorities.

advocating what? I haven't advocated anything except repetance. You keep making accusations and judgements against me. Can you please stop doing this.

All I have said is I believe homosexuality is a sin and one needs to repent of it----change their heart about it.


I have not advocated anything else. I've had gay friends. I have gay friends. I met my girlfriend through a gay friend. I've lent my gay friend some games I owned.





.....stop accusing me and judging me, please.



I forgive you, Mr. Pirate, but I just ask you repent of what your doing for the sake of loving others.

 

[Ohioprof]

Dear Mr Pirate,

Yes I have done, I have given the chapters for better context ..in Matt 19, Mark 10, Eph 5, 1 Cor 6, Jesus NT teaching affirms God’s creation purpose as in Gen 2 for man and woman to be untied. If God’s purpose is woman for man its obviously not man for man, so that excludes same-sex unions. Gen 19, Lev 18 & 20, Judges 19, 1 Cor 6, Romans 1, 1 Tim 1, 2 Peter 2 and Jude 1 either directly or indirectly condemn same-sex sex, which is homosexual practice.
So I have given where Jesus taught about homosexuality, if you don’t believe it that’s your choice.
What I haven’t seen is anywhere where Jesus NT teaching countenances same-sex sex or homosexuality.

No its not implied I have cited what the Bible says is sin and evil, which includes fornication and adultery outside the faithful man/woman marriage… see Matt 19 and Mark 10 again. If we are to accept sex outside marriage to be celebrated, such as same-sex sex, why not slander, murder etc, all based on belief that Jesus speaks the truth as recorded in the Bible off course.

Absolutely, that’s why I use the truth of the Bible. Just one point, not all the Christian church supported slavery, an analogy can be made today with some of the church supporting same-sex sex just like some of the church then supported slavery.

The more accurate comparison is that in the 19th century, some of the church supported abolition and today some of the church supports fair and equal treatment for gay people.

In the 19th century, some of the church supported slavery, and today some of hte church supports unequal and unfair treatment of gay people.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear Ohioprof,

The more accurate comparison is that in the 19th century, some of the church supported abolition and today some of the church supports fair and equal treatment for gay people.

In the 19th century, some of the church supported slavery, and today some of hte church supports unequal and unfair treatment of gay people.

Some of the church was wrong, some was right.Some of the church perhaps didnt address or believe the scriptures provided on those issues, just as you are doing with the scriotures I provided that you quoted me on.

 

[Ohioprof]

Dear Ohioprof,
Some of the church was wrong, some was right.Some of the church perhaps didnt address or believe the scriptures provided on those issues, just as you are doing with the scriotures I provided that you quoted me on.

I wasn't actually quoting you on your scriptures. I was responding to what you said at the end. I don't bother to separate people's posts into sections; I just do quick reply and then respond to portions of the post as they interest me. I didn't read, and I don't read, your quotations from the Bible. I just skip over them.