Redefining God's Word

[Phinehas2]

Dear Davedjy,

Again, that is your interpretation of us Gay Christians not believing in the Bible, but we certainly do. We don't agree those clobber passages condemn monogamous, same sex relationships. Mr. Pirate brought an EXCELLENT theology proof on the Leviticus passages.

Again that’s just your interpretation of claiming to believe in the Bible

Btw, Gen 19, Leviticus, 1 Tim, 2 Peter 2, and Jude 1 are NOT even debatable among the Scholars as passages for homosexuality. It all boils down to Romans 1, AND THAT'S IT!

And that’s the reason and evidence why you don’t believe the Bible.

 

[davedjy]

And that’s the reason and evidence why you don’t believe the Bible.

You can say this all you want, but it does not in any way refute the interpretations at all, it is a lazy assertion, and nothing more.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear Davedjy,
Likewise, you can say all you want but I have given you the Biblical references which I believe are the word of God, all you have done is reject it and dispute it.
Where can you provide such evidence to support what you are proposing?

 

[Ohioprof]

How do you argue the sinfulness of an action with someone who doesn't believe that the Holy Bible is the inspired word of God?

Easy, you don't.

For some people, the Bible is the one and only source of information about what is "sin." For other people, the Bible is one of several sources of information about what is "sin." For still other people, the Bible is not a source of information about what is "sin," but there are other sources. And for still other people, there is no such thing as "sin."

 

[Ohioprof]

Dear Ohioprof,

no the truth is all Christians agree that gay sex is error because all Christians believe the testimony of the Bible.. (see dictionary definition I gave) You keep putting forward your view but it doesn’t match mine, the Bible, the dictionary, or what Christians have agreed over the centuries.

No again that’s your false definition again as I don’t believe a true Christian can denigrate anyone and treat them badly, these ‘Christians’ you refer to may have the same false self-definition you have.

That’s right, so you accept divorce and same-sex sex are sin.

Going backwards through your points, I believe that neither same-sex relationships NOR divorce are a sin. Since I don't believe the Bible is the word of God, I don't believe that the Bible gives people instruction from God about what is a sin. The Bible reflects what its authors, who were people, believed were sins.

Christians who believe that the Bible condemns both "homosexuality" and divorce and who believe that the Bible is the word of God usually believe that both "homosexuality" and divorce are sins. Yet many Christians treat the two "sins" very differently. They accept divorce, even though they think it is a sin, and they do not spend time pointing fingers at divorced people, telling them that they will go to hell, etc. Many of these Christians are themselves divorced. But they do spend time pointing fingers at gay people, telling us that WE will go to hell unless we repent. They are ignoring the huge divorce log in their own eye.

So by the standards of anti-gay Christians themselves, they treat these two alleged "sins" very differently. I challenge anti-gay Christians to be consistent. If they are going to march around and point fingers or throw stones at gay people, then they should do the same to divorced people. If they are going to push for a constitutional amendment to ban same-sex marriage, then they should be consistent and push for a constitutional amendment to ban divorce. Conversely, if they are going to simply leave divorced people alone and accept divorce, then they should do likewise for gay people. They should leave gay people alone and simply accept us as who we are. That would be acting consistently on their beliefs.

Moving up through your points, I think you are arguing here that all true Christians believe that gay sex is an "error," and that people who say, "I am Christian, and I don't believe that gay sex is a 'sin' or an 'error'" are not really Christians.

Is that what you are saying? I don't want to respond unless I understand your points.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear Ohioprof,

Going backwards through your points, I believe that neither same-sex relationships NOR divorce are a sin.

Going backwards through my posts should tell you what I believe rather than what you believe.
However I would then appreciate some examples from the Bible and even the gnostic works where I know divorce and same-sex sex are comdemned as sin.
In other words please can you give some examples of what you say you dont believe.

Moving up through your points, I think you are saying here that all true Christians believe that gay sex is an "error," and that people who say, "I am Christian, and I don't believe that gay sex is a 'sin' or an 'error' are not really Christians."

I have said that I believe true Christians by the definitions I have given believe the Bible and know that same-sex sex is a sin. What you have said is clealry outside that definition.

In short Christians may be Christians but may be in error on certain issues, but one can equally claim one is not a Christian based on one wrong view as one can claim one is a Christian based on one wrong view.

Also, you are still referring to anti-gay Christians, I dont think they can be Christians by definition of a Christian loving all people even their enemies.

 

[Satori]

They are ignoring the huge divorce log in their own eye.

im just an observer in the thread. But this point can be emphasized.

When people are uncertain and scared regarding their own decisions, it is easy to jump and accuse other people of a false way of life. Christians who openly denounce other people I think are the ones who deep in their hearts are uncertain of their faith.

Note that this is different than trying to convert someone. I am a non-christian but am a very important part of my friends mormon family. They regularly try to convert me, but do not accuse me of what I know they think of as my sins. We listen to each other and get along despite this disagreement. So much so they allow me to be very close to their family and their young children. This is a case in point that when both parties involved truly believe in the way they live their life, even when in direct conflict, there is little hostility, only discussion.

 

[Ohioprof]

Dear Ohioprof,


I asked for a citation to support your comment.
Your comment was

So then you told me

Ok so why do you personally think judging others is wrong, regardless of what you don’t believe Jesus said, and why do you think you should therefore expect others to believe the same?

You left out the essential part of what I said in my post about what Jesus said and did not say.

I said that according to the scholars of the Jesus Seminar, Jesus probably did not say, "Judge not lest ye be judged." But he probably did say what is written as the followup to that in both Matthew and Luke, which is the statement about pointing to the sliver in your neighbor's eye while ignoring the log in your own eye. That is the probable actual statement from Jesus about not judging.

My original point, in noting that Jesus had something to say about judging, was that another poster who was judging gay people was ignoring what Jesus said, despite the fact that she insisted that she follows the Bible. You asked for a citation about what Jesus said, and I gave it to you.

I personally follow the teachings of Jesus not because I think they are from God, but because I think they are wise teachings. But they are not the only wise teachings, and certainly not everything Jesus said is something I will follow. I use the wisdom of Jesus as my guide, not as a set of rigid instructions.

 

[Satori]

I personally follow the teachings of Jesus not because I think they are from God, but because I think they are wise teachings

Wow what a concept... /sarcasm

As you insinuate a lot of people follow the bible simply because they believe its from God. If the teachings made less moral sense I wonder how fast the % would drop. I think it wouldn't be as dramatic as you might think, these teachings are often used in a more than unwise manner.

I wish more people had at least a little bit of perspective as you do Ohioprof. Perhaps its simply you are older and more experienced than most us youngins. =)

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear Ohioprof,

You left out the essential part of what I said in my post about what Jesus said and did not say.

Nope, you made the comment I questioned it and I am still pressing you for a response.
You said

You are being judgmental of others. Jesus had something to say about that

and offered

I said that according to the scholars of the Jesus Seminar, Jesus probably did not say, "Judge not lest ye be judged." But he probably did say what is written as the followup to that in both Matthew and Luke, which is the statement about pointing to the sliver in your neighbor's eye while ignoring the log in your own eye. That is the probable actual statement from Jesus about not judging.

No I don’t accept that as what Jesus said. We are therefore only being judgemental in your view, not in our view.

I personally follow the teachings of Jesus

ah but I don’t believe they are the teachings of Jesus, not the same Jesus I know, the one in the Bible.

I use the wisdom of Jesus as my guide,

ok but as seen not the Jesus Christ that Christians follow according to His testimony in the Bible.

 

[Satori]

phinehas2 -

if christians are to see homosexual actions as sin, yet expected to treat the person... as equal etc. this is very wise.

yet i think where you and ohio may disagree is that this treatment of equality is almost impossible, as the first impulse is to look down upon sinners. Christianity has a failsafe for this reaction, as we realize in the perfection of God we are all sinners... yet this realization is very hard to keep in the forefronts of our minds as we deal with other people who we see openly sinning...

so I think the view ohio has adopted is that in order to better live the life as a true christian should, it is better that some people accept the imperfections of gay friends... the only way to practically treat these people as equals is to.. in practice at least... see homosexual relations as an accepted action. This is in contrast to the bible but allows the imperfect practitioner the ability to act wholeheartedly as a perfect devout Christian should.

tell me if I'm being unclear and Ohio of course has the ability to speak for herself... im just insinuating ideas out of her posts.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear Satori,

if christians are to see homosexual actions as sin, yet expected to treat the person... as equal etc. this is very wise.

No I think Christians see what Jesus teaches as in according to the NT and the Bible as a whole. I don’t think there can be any ‘if’ about it. Its central core belief, John 3:16, God loved all people and Jesus died to forgive the sinful actions.

yet i think where you and

ohio may disagree is that this treatment of equality is almost impossible, as the first impulse is to look down upon sinners. Christianity has a failsafe for this reaction, as we realize in the perfection of God we are all sinners... yet this realization is very hard to keep in the forefronts of our minds as we deal with other people who we see openly sinning...

I think you have missed the fact that I believe we are all sinners, what ever sins we may fall short in, Ohioprof is actually trying to tell me one particular sin isnt a sin.

so I think the view ohio has adopted is that in order to better live the life as a true christian should, it is better that some people accept the imperfections of gay friends... the only way to practically treat these people as equals is to.. in practice at least... see homosexual relations as an accepted action.

Ok so you would accept slander, murder, theft and other such imperfections? I don’t, because true Christians are those who accept the people but repent of the wrong actions. It’s a central message of Jesus, repent means turning away from

thanks for the helpful intensions Satori, I would like to know what you think of my response.

 

[Satori]

No I think Christians see what Jesus teaches as in according to the NT and the Bible as a whole. I don’t think there can be any ‘if’ about it. Its central core belief, John 3:16, God loved all people and Jesus died to forgive the sinful actions.
I think you have missed the fact that I believe we are all sinners, what ever sins we may fall short in, Ohioprof is actually trying to tell me one particular sin isnt a sin.

I didnt miss the fact that you believe we are all sinners, I was pointing it out... This is key to what I am trying to say.. You are a person who will punish himself for his own sins, and therefore agree that others should repent as you have.

Two things:
1. I'm trying to say this takes quite a bit of character... to truly see someone who seems as though they are not even trying at all to live a moral life as your equal is very hard. To look a murderer in the face and see him as every bit as worthy as yourself is hard... but demanded as a christian.

For people who don't have this strength of character, it is easier for them to pass over lesser sins of those they must deal with on a daily basis. This way they can truly treat them as equals. It's a catch-22 but works in a practical way. Yes it is hypocritical.

2. It is hard for me to judge others, I always have difficulty when it comes to decisions of punishments for other people. I see myself in others very easily and this makes judging someone very difficult. I know there must be some punishments for certain behaviors, especially in the extremes such as murder and theft as you mentioned. But I don't believe the punishments are the solution.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear Satori,

I didnt miss the fact that you believe we are all sinners, I was pointing it out... This is key to what I am trying to say.. You are a person who will punish himself for his own sins, and therefore agree that others should repent as you have.

No my point was that you missed the fact that Jesus taught that we all fall short and are sinners and that Ohioprof is trying to tell me one particular sin is not a sin,

Two things:
I'm trying to say this takes quite a bit of character... to truly see someone who seems as though they are not even trying at all to live a moral life as your equal is very hard. To look a murderer in the face and see him as every bit as worthy as yourself is hard... but demanded as a christian.

Well it is difficult especially if the murderer has committed murder against one of your family or friends.
However you haven’t answered my question to you. Ok so you would accept slander, murder, theft and other such imperfections? I don’t, because true Christians are those who accept the people but repent of the wrong actions. It’s a central message of Jesus, repent means turning away from.
You see I am referring to non-acceptance of the imperfection not the person so I wouldn’t see same-sex sex or adultery or murder, slander, theft etc. as accepted actions, rather they are unacceptable actions and need repentance.

2. It is hard for me to judge others, I always have difficulty when it comes to decisions of punishments for other people. I see myself in others very easily and this makes judging someone very difficult. I know there must be some punishments for certain behaviors, especially in the extremes such as murder and theft as you mentioned. But I don't believe the punishments are the solution.

Well I see Jesus as teaching that we are not to punish others, that belongs to God. We dont judge our neighbour but Jesus teaches we are to judge what is right.

 

[Satori]

We dont judge our neighbour but Jesus teaches we are to judge what is right.

Yes, everything you say is fine, it is just difficult to truly live by. If you don't judge you will have no problems with the actions of other people. You will leave them to be judged by god and will not trouble them with your passing judgment. This is quite a difficult thing to do.

If we could all look only to judge ourselves and guide our own imperfections, there would be much less conflict.

That said there are obviously many practical implications that must be addressed. At some point you have to draw the line and begin punishing people for things that get in the way of society... murder, theft etc. as you mentioned.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear Satori,

Yes, everything you say is fine, it is just difficult to truly live by.

Ok well yes it is that’s why we need the Holy Spirit and faith knowing that with man things can be impossible but with God all things are possible.
I am glad you think what I said is fine, but I am still not happy about what you said, which you still haven’t addressed. You suggested one accepts the imperfect actions of others as an accepted action. I asked you whether you would accept slander, murder adultery, theft etc? You see I think you are trying again to assume I accept your assumptions and then construct an argument based on them.

If you don't judge you will have no problems with the actions of other people. You will leave them to be judged by god and will not trouble them with your passing judgment. This is quite a difficult thing to do.

I don’t judge people, I have just established that, Jesus teaches us to judge what is right and that we love Him when we obey His commands.

 

[dayhiker]

Dear Davedjy,
No that’s your opinion of what churches are, not mine. You have seen the dictionary and Bibilcal definitions of Christian, it is someone who believes the OT and NT testimony of Jesus Christ, both of which clearly state that God’s purpose in creation is man and woman together in faithful union (Gen 2, Matt 19, Mark 10, Eph 5, 1 Cor 7) and that same-sex sex is error (Gen 19, Lev 18 & 20, 1 Cor 6, 1 Tim 1, Romans 1, 2 Peter 2, Jude1) All you have done so far is tell me you don’t believe the Bible.

Phinehas2,
Your definition of a Christian sounds like a law based defintion to me. Paul said the Galatains were bewitched for believing they could be saved or prefected by the law. Paul also says in Romans that none are righteous by the law. So the way I see it you don't even meet your own definition of a Christian.

We are save by faith thru grace. Eph. 2 and the Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are son of God. That is a subjective experience, so I've never figured out how someone can say if another person is a Christian or not. I've also had many pastors say this as well.

dayhiker

 

[Phinehas2]

Hi Dayhiker,
Thanks for your post to me.

Your definition of a Christian sounds like a law based defintion to

me.

But I didn’t give my definition I gave the dictionary definition and the Biblical definition, but I note that you consider them law based.

Paul said the Galatains were bewitched for believing they could be saved or prefected by the law. Paul also says in Romans that none are righteous by the law. So the way I see it you don't even meet your own definition of a Christian.

again you are mistaken as I gave the dictionary and Biblical definitions.
Incidentally the dictionary definition was that Christians believe Jesus is the Son of God according to the OT and NT testimonies., so I fit the dictionary definition, my point was that some definitions don’t.
As to the law, I agree with what Romans says is God’s view.

We are save by faith thru grace. Eph. 2 and the Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are son of God.

AMEN Yes we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ.

That is a subjective experience,

But one cant have faith in someone one doesn’t have faith in.

 

[Ohioprof]

Since satori and phineas have been discussing some of my posts, I will clarify what I think and believe. Phineas is right that I do not think that being gay or being in a same-sex relationship are sins. I do not regard these as failings, but simply as differences between people. Some people are gay, and some people are not gay. I also do not believe that the Bible is the word of God.

I recognize that many Christians do regard being gay and/or being in a same-sex relationship as sinful. (Some say that don't view being gay as a sin, just acting on it. Others seem to regard both being gay and acting on it as sinful, or to regard thinking gay thoughts as sinful as well as acting on those thoughts. There seems to be some diversity of opinion among those who regard us as sinners because we are gay.)

Given that some or many Christians do seem to regard our relationships as sinful, a view I do not share, then I am arguing as satori suggests that the best course of action for those who believe this is to do nothing. You believe gay people are sinning? Okay, that's up to you. Believe that if you want to, but when it comes to action, let it go. I recommend that such Christians refrain from pointing fingers at or otherwise hounding gay people, and accept us as we are. I recommend that they act toward gay people the way most Christians act toward divorced people, given that they also regard divorce as a sin. I don't see Christians going around pointing fingers at divorced people or telling divorced people that they are going to hell. I see a whole lot of Christians getting divorced. I don't even see many Christians taking up the opportunity to have "covenant marriages" in those few states that allow them. From what I have read, only 1-3% of marriages in those states that allow them are "covenant marriages," which is a miniscule number.

Most Christians also do nothing to hound or point fingers at people of other faiths. Many Christians seem to regard non-Christian faiths as wrong, and the followers of such faiths as headed not for salvation. But I don't see too many Christians hounding people of other faiths about their faith traditions, pointing fingers at them, and telling them that they will go to hell for practicing their religion.

I recommend that to be consistent, Christians do likewise with gay people.....leave gay people alone.

Phineas brought up the question of how Christians should then treat thieves and murderers. We have laws against theft and murder, and we can let the criminal justice system take care of this. Of course there is certainly no comparison between being in a committed same-sex relationship and murdering someone. And being in a same-sex relationship is not against the law, for good reason, just as murder is against the law for good reason. But I as a Christian believe in being loving toward all people, even toward those who murder, because God loves all people. I would point out, however, that there is a big difference in the impact of someone loving someone of the same sex, or someone practicing a different faith, and someone murdering someone or someone stealing from someone.

Of course, it's up to each individual to decide how he or she will act to be consistent with his or her faith. I can't force other Christians to refrain from pointing fingers or throwing stones at gay people. I can only urge them to stop. What they choose to do us up to them.

 

[Ohioprof]

To Phineas:

You continue to get hung up on the dictionary, as though the dictionary is God or the law or something. It is not. The dictionary is a reflection of common usage of words; it is not and is not intended to be the determiner of how people use language. The dictionary follows common usage of words; it does not determine common usage.