Reconciled to God while enemies !

[John Mullally]

I like this post. And if you feel moved pray for me. You see Brightframe52 says I have rejected truth. I have also blasphemed
according to Brightframe52.

But I love this post because it points out I think that the immature carnal ones Paul was trying to HELP needed
shepherding, perfecting, healthy teaching and therefore the ministry of reconcilation.

They needed to grow in grace for further reconciliation. They had been reconciled in the sense
of eternal redemption of course already.

I show that the passages that @Brightfame52 quotes don't support what he is asserting. @Brightfame52 rarely responds directly to my arguments other than to repeat himself or make such accusations. Here I might submit that I consider reconciliation a matter of taking away the enmity between parties.

I have learned to think of Justification more in legal terms.

I mean a Judge may justify one who is otherwise guilty.
But the two still are not that close as friends.

Reconciliation takes away the enmity, the unfriendliness, the adverse relationship.
Probably some overlap is true.
But I think of Redemption and Justification more along the legal aspect.
And Reconcliation more along removing the barrier of advarsarial enmity between us and God.

Although Reconciliation with God is not the same as Justification, Justification requires Reconciliation with God. Here is a passage from Paul that clearly shows that God reconciled the world (i.e. everyone) to himself in Christ. Although God provides reconciliation, it is only received by those "in Christ" and Ephesians 1:13 tells us how we are included in Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.​

​

Ephesians 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,​

 

[oikonomia]

Although Reconciliation with God is not the same as Justification, Justification requires Reconciliation with God.

That is interesting and hard to deny. And I would like to muse on it and bounce it off of some other brothers.

I think on one hand we have to be Justified for Reconciliation to be secured.
Here you show that Reconcilation has to preceed Justification.

Here is a passage from Paul that clearly shows that God reconciled the world (i.e. everyone) to himself in Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.​

Well, it cannot at all be denied that He SO LOVED . . . the world. So in that sense He was on the loving side of us sinners
of the world. Yet the sin He hated.

We never can graduate from John 3:16a.
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, . . .

Let's go back to Rom. 5:10 now and include verse 9 just for the praise of it.

Much more then, having now been justified in His blood, we will be saved through Him from the wrath.
For if we, being enemies, were reconciled to God through the death of His Son,
much more we will be saved in His life, having been reconciled,

 

[oikonomia]

Anyone like to hear a singing version of Romans 5:1-11.
I mean speaking to one another is psalms, hymns, spiritual songs etc.

 

[Brightfame52]

Reconciliation while enemies consist of Non Imputation of Sin !

Now Rom 5:10 teaches, confirms limited reconciliation/atonement by many ways, and one way is the Grand Fact that Reconciliation inheres with the non imputation of sin. 2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Now we know that this fact doesnt apply to all without exception, for we read of the people of the beast this Rev 18:4-6

4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

The Reconciled People have this promise Heb 8:12

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. 22

 

[oikonomia]

I show that the passages that @Brightfame52 quotes don't support what he is asserting. @Brightfame52 rarely responds directly to my arguments other than to repeat himself or make such accusations. Here I might submit that I consider reconciliation a matter of taking away the enmity between parties.

Although Reconciliation with God is not the same as Justification, Justification requires Reconciliation with God. Here is a passage from Paul that clearly shows that God reconciled the world (i.e. everyone) to himself in Christ. Although God provides reconciliation, it is only received by those "in Christ" and Ephesians 1:13 tells us how we are included in Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.​

​

Ephesians 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,​

John did you have any thoughts on Brighframes last post?
You and I might converse on it.

It brought brought out some interesting problems.
I mean "Come out of her My people" certainly indicates reconcilation to
the point of belonging to God. Am I right? How else could they be God's people?

If it is "Come out of her My people" in Revelation 18 I don't know
what problem there could be with the Christians in Corinth being reconciled to God further.
So Paul entreats them so for further reconciliation.
So Paul entreats them not to receive the grace of God by which they have been made God's, in vain.

 

[John Mullally]

John did you have any thoughts on Brighframes last post?
You and I might converse on it.

@Brightfame52 is a Calvinist. “Calvinism” is a type of fatalism as it teaches that God unconditionally predestined that only certain pre-selected individuals called “the elect” would become Christ believers and be saved. The rest of humanity termed the “non-elect” will go to hell.

As seen in Post 544, when @Brightfame52 encounters passages like Romans 5:10, 2 Corinthians 5:19, and Hebrew 8:12 that speak of reconciliation and forgiveness of sins, he assumes that it is strictly addressed to the pre-selected Elect. Conversely, those passages like Revelation 18:4-6 apply to those who were not pre-selected as Elect.

It brought brought out some interesting problems.
I mean "Come out of her My people" certainly indicates reconcilation to
the point of belonging to God. Am I right? How else could they be God's people?

In the OT and in portions of the Gospels (like Matthew 2:6, and Luke 1:33), "my people" are referring to ethnic Jews but per Romans 9:1-9 many ethnic Jews are not saved. So Revelation 18:4 is not referring to ethic Jews.

I take "my people" in Revelation 18:4 as being Christ believers. Calvinists view "my people" in Revelation 18:4 as being the "Elect", who are fated by God to believe and thus be saved. Calvinists commonly borrow from Jesus Christ's language of being "His sheep" as being "the Elect". I take "His sheep" as being Christ believers and not those pre-selected to be His followers (as if that was a thing). Jesus confirms my understanding in John 10. In John 10:26, Jesus terms the Jewish leader opponents as "not my sheep" and yet in John 10:37-38, Jesus makes an effort to persuade these "not my sheep" to believe on Him based upon the evidence from His miracles. It makes no sense for Jesus to make an effort to persuade individuals he labeled as incapable of believing on Him (per the Calvinists understanding of this "not my sheep" term).

In Genesis 4:3-7, God tells Cain, he can do better and by doing better, all will go well. In other words, why would God say to Cain that “you must master it” if He really believed that Cain could not master it? Obviously, God believed, and in fact knew for certain, that Cain certainly could and must master his sinful impulses, if he were to live righteously. God’s encouragement of Cain implicitly indicates ability, or else if not, then God would be deceiving Cain with false ability, and moreover, why would God command Cain to do something that he could not?

If it is "Come out of her My people" in Revelation 18 I don't know
what problem there could be with the Christians in Corinth being reconciled to God further.
So Paul entreats them so for further reconciliation.
So Paul entreats them not to receive the grace of God by which they have been made God's, in vain.

In the NT, there are many warnings to Christ believers to not fall away, like what you quote here from 2 Corinthians 6:1. These warnings make no sense if that was not a possibility. I submit that 2 Peter 2:20-22 identifies that some believers will fall away.

 

[oikonomia]

@Brightfame52 is a Calvinist. “Calvinism” is a type of fatalism as it teaches that God unconditionally predestined that only certain pre-selected individuals called “the elect” would become Christ believers and be saved. The rest of humanity termed the “non-elect” will go to hell.

It is risky to give allegience to any kind of creedal ISM. The Bible is not always friendly to our creedal attempts to completely
systematize its revelation. The greatest way of blessing is to just acknowledge with an "Amen!" whatever His word says.
The revelation I think alludes our attempts to 100% systematize into a "ism" or "school."

I do not know a lot about brother John Calvin. I wonder how happy he would be to know there is such a thing as "Calvinism" or that Christians would want to show allegience to something called "Calvinism." We can receive help from many wise Christians. But we should not think thier any "ism" will give us as much assurance and comfort as just saying "Amen!" to whatever the word of God says.

So I rather "use" in a practical way predestination and selection to build up my faith. Like this "Lord Jesus, I believe that You predestinated me to be victorious and overcoming just as you predestinated me in Christ to be saved. I do not know why Lord. But I count on you to perfect, establish and ground me in transforming grace. Lord I count on your predestination of me in You and your faithfulness all the way."

In this way I apply faith to put this difficult philsophical matter to practical work for me. Over the centuries much smarter intellects
than mine have tried to figure out this perplexing matter of election and so-forth in a philsophical way. I eventually thought to
apply faith and "Amen!" to the statements of the Bible and use them for my growth.

In the OT and in portions of the Gospels (like Matthew 2:6, and Luke 1:33), "my people" are referring to ethnic Jews but per Romans 9:1-9 many ethnic Jews are not saved. So Revelation 18:4 is not referring to ethic Jews.

You know God's purpose is ever to build His church and as an expansion of the church the New Jerusalem as the mingling of
God and man. Our individual salvation and blessing are precious to us as they should be. But His purpose is larger than just
our individual salvation as blessed as that is.

So we should understand the many signs in Revelation in view of this overall and overarching way. How is "Babylon" in Revelation
17 and 18 to be understood? The old testament matter of Babylon must inform us of how the "sign" of a Babylon in Revelation 17,18 is used.

Babylon in OT was a place where God's people were captured away. They were suppose to be in the Good Land with the city of God with the temple in the city where God lived among them. But they were defeated and carried away captive into Babylon a place of idolatry.

Babylon in New Testament sense is therefore something that has captured away God's people "My people" from His purpose for
a good land, a captital city in that good land, and a house where He would dwell among them. Babylon is the counterfeit in which'
God's genuinely saved people have been carried away.

Now Babylon in the New Testament sense also is a place of mixture of unbelievers and believers. Like the tares of false Christians mixed up in ' the field of the world with genuine Christians. So using for a moment "elect" as saved believers, Babylon is a place of captivity where genuine believers are mixed up with non-genuine ones - the elect among those who NEED to become saved. Whether they do or not is another matter. But the confusion, the mixture, the chaos of idolatry, unbelief, and sinfulness with those "elect" polluted by the mixture in a captive way is the meaning of Babylon in Revelation's sense.

This has to be brief. Brevity always can lead to unswered particulars. But "Come out of her My People" (Rev. 18:4) must in the New Testament sense mean to come out of the counterfeit, the facade, the corrupted imitation of the Bride which is a Harlot, to His genuine Bride the church and New Jerusalem.

The "MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT" in Revelation 17 is called "THE MOTHER OF THE HARLOTS AND THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH."

She is not the Wife of the Lamb the abominable "MOTHER OF HARLOTS". As a "MOTHER" she has many daughters who in one degree
or another are like her. The MOTHER is the source. The daughters who are like her have been spawned off from her. They have not
been able to rid themselves of her characteristics completely. Like mother like daughters.

There are many abominable things on the earth. However, the MOST abominal things are those who are under the flag (so to speak) of that which is of God - divine, holy, and pure. When the banner overhead reads "This is of God" yet within are unclean idolatrous and sinful things,
this is more evil. The advertizing reads "Christ's Wife". But within is the nature of a filthy HARLOT - unfaithful, prostituting herself, proud, masquerading as the geniune Wife of the Lamb. Yet the reality of the situation is that she is a facade for deceptions and taking captive
God's genuine people. They are carried away from His purpose into a spiritual Babylonian Captivity.

So from this captivity and mixture - abominable mixture of the divine things with idolatrous things a voice out of heaven calls -
And I heard another voice out of heaven, saying, Come out of her, My people, that you do not participate in her sins and that you do not receive her plagues; (Rev. 18:4) The "elect" if you would, are called to give no more dedication to this confusion and to Come out.

Historically, the grand source of degraded Christiandom is the Roman Catholic Church which of course contains millions of
genuine elected and saved believers. But she also contains millions of unbelievers who are not yet saved. So there is a
mixture which is a facade of the Wife the church. On the other hand the RCC has spawned off many "protestant" daughters who
to more or lesser degrees cannot totally rid themselves of some her characteristics. The big Babylon the Harlot has spawned off
many smaller daughter's often like the mother. The mother can boast of being the oldest and first of these entities.

The coming out of her is not as simple as just physically removing. Coming out of Babylon is one thing. Getting Babylon to come out
of us is another thing. These things of Babylon are in the flesh, the natural man, the superstitious and religious fallen Adamic nature.
So the "Come out of her My people" is a matter of sanctification and transformation in the soul not just physical coming out.

Babylon the Mother of Harlots is seen in a dry and desert like wilderness. Spiritual thirst and lifelessness permeate this tragic
facade.

And he carried me away in spirit into a WILDERNESS; and I saw a woman sitting upon a scarlet beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. (Rev. 17:3)

New Jerusalem on the other hand is seen from a mountaintop, from the peak of all the revelation of the whole Bible.

And I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.(Rev. 21:2)
And he carried me away in spirit onto a great and high mountain and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, Having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, as clear as crystal. (vs. 10,11)

You can see the contrast. A mother of harlots is contrasted to a bride of Christ.
A woman riding on the political powers of the world govenments is contrasted to
holy city having the transparent shining through of God's glory.
A golden cup full of abominable things held by the mother harlot is compared to a golden mountain as clear as glass.

The gold signifies the divine nature. You see the RCC as the mother of harlots does have something divine. There is something
there of the nature of God. Yet is only forms as a container for abominable things within.

And the woman was clothed in purple and scarlet, and gilded with gold and precious stone and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the unclean things of her fornication. (Rev. 17:4)

Because the people of God have been captive in her, and they do have the divine nature of the Father, there is something
of God with her. But it has become usurped to be a receptacle of idolatry and unclean things of the woman's fornication with
the kings of the earth - unclean religious / political unions. And she must persecute the saints who are committed to divine life

.And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus. And I marveled with great marvel when I saw her. (Rev. 17:6)

This is a dreadful situation. On one hand the Mother of Harlots holds in captivity many of God's people. On the other hand
she has become a great murderer of other of God's people and shed "the blood of the witnesses of Jesus."
It is such abominable sins that God remembers.

The precious stones of the believers are with the Harlot. But they are only lightely guilded on the outside for advertizement.
The RCC and the many daughter Protestant denominations can always point to the fact that there are genuine Christians among them as "precious stones". The New Jerusalem on the other hand as the Wife has her foundations solidly built with the same precious stones.

The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with every precious stone: (Rev.21:19)

The precious stones of the saints do not belong in the Harlot. They belong to the Bride and Wife of the Lamb, New Jerusalem,
In this regard also the voice says "Come out of her My people."

You said more but I stop this long post here to resume latter.

 

[John Mullally]

It is risky to give allegience to any kind of creedal ISM. The Bible is not always friendly to our creedal attempts to completely
systematize its revelation. The greatest way of blessing is to just acknowledge with an "Amen!" whatever His word says.
The revelation I think alludes our attempts to 100% systematize into a "ism" or "school."

I do not know a lot about brother John Calvin. I wonder how happy he would be to know there is such a thing as "Calvinism" or that Christians would want to show allegience to something called "Calvinism." We can receive help from many wise Christians. But we should not think thier any "ism" will give us as much assurance and comfort as just saying "Amen!" to whatever the word of God says.

Calvin was a lawyer and a prolific writer that was eager to persuade to his beliefs - even if it meant persecution.

So I rather "use" in a practical way predestination and selection to build up my faith. Like this "Lord Jesus, I believe that You predestinated me to be victorious and overcoming just as you predestinated me in Christ to be saved. I do not know why Lord. But I count on you to perfect, establish and ground me in transforming grace. Lord I count on your predestination of me in You and your faithfulness all the way."

Is predestination in the Bible addressing particular individuals before they were born or the group of people who would choose to believe on Jesus Christ? 1 Timothy 2:4 says that God desires all people to be saved - so He will not exclude anyone. 1 Timothy 4:10 calls God the savior of all people. Calvinists argue that God predestines who will believe - but I don't find that plainly state in scripture.. And yes if that were true, I would expect that to be plainly stated as it would eclipse any other truth.

In this way I apply faith to put this difficult philsophical matter to practical work for me. Over the centuries much smarter intellects
than mine have tried to figure out this perplexing matter of election and so-forth in a philsophical way. I eventually thought to
apply faith and "Amen!" to the statements of the Bible and use them for my growth.

You know God's purpose is ever to build His church and as an expansion of the church the New Jerusalem as the mingling of
God and man. Our individual salvation and blessing are precious to us as they should be. But His purpose is larger than just
our individual salvation as blessed as that is.

So we should understand the many signs in Revelation in view of this overall and overarching way. How is "Babylon" in Revelation
17 and 18 to be understood? The old testament matter of Babylon must inform us of how the "sign" of a Babylon in Revelation 17,18 is used.

Read for yourself and follow your gut. Jesus says that we must come to Him in humility as a child in order to be saved (Luke 18:15-17), so it cannot be complicated. Jesus chose fisherman with the equivalence of a fourth-grade education as His top three disciples (Peter, James, John).

Babylon in OT was a place where God's people were captured away. They were suppose to be in the Good Land with the city of God with the temple in the city where God lived among them. But they were defeated and carried away captive into Babylon a place of idolatry.

Babylon in New Testament sense is therefore something that has captured away God's people "My people" from His purpose for
a good land, a captital city in that good land, and a house where He would dwell among them. Babylon is the counterfeit in which'
God's genuinely saved people have been carried away.

Now Babylon in the New Testament sense also is a place of mixture of unbelievers and believers. Like the tares of false Christians mixed up in ' the field of the world with genuine Christians. So using for a moment "elect" as saved believers, Babylon is a place of captivity where genuine believers are mixed up with non-genuine ones - the elect among those who NEED to become saved. Whether they do or not is another matter. But the confusion, the mixture, the chaos of idolatry, unbelief, and sinfulness with those "elect" polluted by the mixture in a captive way is the meaning of Babylon in Revelation's sense.

This has to be brief. Brevity always can lead to unswered particulars. But "Come out of her My People" (Rev. 18:4) must in the New Testament sense mean to come out of the counterfeit, the facade, the corrupted imitation of the Bride which is a Harlot, to His genuine Bride the church and New Jerusalem.

The "MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT" in Revelation 17 is called "THE MOTHER OF THE HARLOTS AND THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH."

In Ephesians 3:1-13, Paul discusses that the mysteries have been revealed. God does not want us to be in the dark.

 

[Brightfame52]

Objective Reconciliation first !

All of Gods Elect, or Sheep, or the Church of God had been objectively reconciled to God when they were still yet being enemies. This blessing of reconciliation is not by faith, its not because of believing, but its accomplished by the death of Christ Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. The alienation between the elect and God they have by nature See Col 1:21 has been removed objectively by the death of Christ. They shall at some point however be reconciled subjectively by the life of Christ when He quickens them with new life.

The Elect are reconciled to God objectively in Christ their Head who is reconciled to God subjectively after having been forsaken of God when He bare the curse of the Law for them Gal 3:13. Its like when the elect were in a right relationship at the first when yet in the loins of Adam before he sinned, so likewise the elect are in a objectively right relationship of reconciliation in Christ with God before they believe and are yet born enemies !

I would like to give credit to writer we best for his sharing the light God has given him in a writing titled " Life brought to light "

 

[oikonomia]

Is predestination in the Bible addressing particular individuals before they were born or the group of people who would choose to believe on Jesus Christ?

At this time of my life I emphasis this predestination to about those "in Him [Christ]." We must be in Him to share His wonderful destiny.

Even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blemish before Him in love,
Predestinating us unto sonship through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

I am impressed that all of God's eternal purpose is in Christ as the sphere and realm.
God impresses me with the need to bring all of my being into Christ for His operation to take place.
Needless to say I was put into Christ mercifully to be redeemed.

But much more every part of our soul we must exercise to turn over for God to dispense Christ into us.
So the more we open for His dispensing into us the more we are in Christ and His predestinating will may take place.

Christ is the Spirit who indwells my regenerated spirit - what Paul calls "the inner man."
And the apostles petition for the whole church is that we be strengthened by the Spirit into that realm.
That He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory,
to be strengthened with power through His Spirit into the inner man, (Eph. 3:16)

The destiny that God has marked out for me beforehand is all in Christ. And after regeneration
we must be strengthened into that chamber of our being where Christ is joined to us.
I am not sure how His Spirit strengthens us into that realm, but He does.

It could be that once we touch the Lord within He becomes a powerful magnet to energize us to return.
Then this attracting power influences us to log more and more time in this realm.
It is a realm of prayer and exercise unto godliness. It requires cooperation of the will accompanied by the power
of the Holy Spirit within.

Here, in Christ in this way we become like plants absorbing up into our soul the "nutrients" of Jesus Christ.
We are rooted as plants for the growing of God's life in us.
And we are grounded as God's building being built up with others in Christ.

Here's the rest of Paul prayer for us.

That Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith, that you, being rooted and grounded in love,
May be full of strength to apprehend with all the saints what the breadth and length and height and depth are
And to know the knowledge-surpassing love of Christ, that you may be filled unto all the fullness of God.
But to Him who is able to do superabundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power which operates in us,
To Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus unto all the generations forever and ever. Amen.

In Christ there is a vastness which is like the very infinite dimensions of the universe.
How broad is "the breadth?' How long is "the length?"
How high is "the height?" How deep is "the depth?"

These characteristics of Christ's are knowledge surpassing and will take us eternity to explore.
Christ and His love are like the immeasurable dimensions of the expanding universe.

We must be energized into that realm where the Lord is one spirit with us.
But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit. (1 Cor. 6:17)

I get strengthened into my spirit when I pray. I get strengthened when I call upon the name of the Lord.
I call "O Lord Jesus! O Lord Jesus! I praise you Lord Jesus. Amen. Lord thankyou that you are one spirit with me."

So from within the Spirit as a magnet more and more energizes me into my inner man to be in Christ.
And outwardly also God arranges situations and circumstances to incentivise me to turn to my spirit.

I found there is a great difference in just doctrinally knowing I am tripartite - spirit and soul and body (1 Thess. 5:23)
and actually exercising prayer to strengthen my abiding in the Spirit. Rarely do I drift into that realm.
But if we Christians together get into Christ in that way He can do superabundantly above all that we ask or think.

To build His church we cannot but be conformed to His image inwardly first.
He arranges the whole universe for this eternal purpose.
And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

Because those whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers;

And those whom He predestinated, these He also called; and those whom He called, these He also justified; and those whom He justified, these He also glorified. (Rom. 8:29,30)

These are the matters of predestinating and selecting an "elect" that occupy my heart.

 

[oikonomia]

1 Timothy 2:4 says that God desires all people to be saved - so He will not exclude anyone.

Yes, He desires two things for all men -
1.) that they be saved
2.) that they come to the full knowedge of the truth.

Now for this Paul exhorts us to petition and pray rather than not.

I exhort therefore, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercessions, thanksgivings be made on behalf of all men;
On behalf of kings and all who are in high position, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all godliness and gravity.

This is good and acceptable in the sight of our Savior God,
Who desires all men to be saved and to come to the full knowledge of the truth. (1 Tim. 2:1-4)

He exhorts that we pray, petition, intercede with thanksgvings. We must pray in harmony with what He desires.
We must pray for those in government who do not pray for themselves. I pray that people high positions would pray also.

The goal of such prayer is that "godliness" may be testified in our living without interfering chaos.
Godliness is God manifest in the flesh (1 Tim. 3:16). So our prayer is not just that we have no problems in life for its own sake.
Our prayer for government is that may live a God expressing life of "godliness" for men to see.

There are many other attitudes Christians may have about society and government. They may not be that acceptable to God.
But this way Paul assures us is good and acceptable. For in this way He desires all men to be saved and come to the full knowledge
of the truth.

1 Timothy 4:10 calls God the savior of all people. Calvinists argue that God predestines who will believe - but I don't find that plainly state in scripture.. And yes if that were true, I would expect that to be plainly stated as it would eclipse any other truth.

I see the danger of two too extreme attitudes which might hinder God's dispensing of Himself into us.

If on one hand we go too far that all people will be saved, we probably will not have such a burning gospel heart to tell the
news of salvation. Afterall, all will be saved.

On the other hand if we only think some are fated to be lost we may be passive to tell men the gospel.

So these mysterious uttersances we should just say "Amen!" to and still pray, live a godly testifying life, and share the gospel
to people. We do not know who will believe and who will not.
Neither the Lord Himself or the apostles acted as if there was no need to spread the gospel.
Any kind of "ISM" around these verses should not hinder the dispensing of Christ's life into us that we live Christ.

God's economy is to ever dispense Himself into man for salvation, for sanctification, for building up as His church.
He will acheive His purpose. If we wisely use the time alloted to us in this age of grace He will reward this in the kingdom.
Otherwise He has a thousand more years after His second coming to place some neglegient children into "summer school".
The flavor of those dealings will not be the same in the millennial kingdom age as they are in the church age.

Now notice that the overcoming believers who are rewarded to accompany Christ in public victory over His enemies,
are of three characteristics not two. They are CALLED #1. They are CHOSEN #2. But that is not all. To these two blessings
they have added something - FAITHFUL #3.

These [enemies] will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and they [overcomers] who are with Him, the called and chosen and faithful, will also overcome them. (Rev. 17:14)

Here any theology only highlighting "called and chosen" will fall shortsigtedly of the truth.
We must see to the elect being "called and chosen" these victors have added what only they by His grace can add, faithfulness.
The words here are not about eternal redemption but reward of faithfulness - and they who are with Him, the called and chosen and faithful,

And I find helpful the footnote in the Recovery Version on this verse which reads.
"Chosen" is mentioned after "called." To be called is to be saved, whereas to be chosen is to be approved
of the Lord by an overcoming life, Many are called today, but few will be chosen in the future (Matt, 22:14).

This matter of adding our cooperation to the foundational blessing of eternal redemption Peter speaks to.

Therefore, brothers, be the more diligent to make your calling and selection firm, for doing these things you shall by no means ever stumble. (2 Pet. 1:10)

And John also wanted his "children" in the teaching of life to receive a FULL reward.

Look to yourselves that you do not lose the things which we wrought, but that you may receive a full reward. (2 John 1:8)

 

[Brightfame52]

@oikonomia

At this time of my life I emphasis this predestination to about those "in Him [Christ]." We must be in Him to share His wonderful destiny.

Even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blemish before Him in love,
Predestinating us unto sonship through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

There is a people in Christ before the foundation of the world, you just quoted it Eph 1:4

 

[zoidar]

@oikonomia



There is a people in Christ before the foundation of the world, you just quoted it Eph 1:4

If they were always in Christ then were they ever in need of saving?

 

[Brightfame52]

If they were always in Christ then were they ever in need of saving?

Thats just your opinion. Nevertheless a People have been in Christ since before the foundation. Eph 1:4

 

[oikonomia]

@oikonomia



There is a people in Christ before the foundation of the world, you just quoted it Eph 1:4

Okay. You may take it that way and be completely right.
I thank God for that if that is what it means.

I use this predestination matter to have faith that the Lord will perfect me into His image.
That did not happen instantaneously when I was born again.

And all the saints saved must pass through a process of being perfected into one with the Triune God.
Right here in Jesus Christ mighty petition to the Father -

And the glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, even as We are one;
I in them, and You in Me, that they may be perfected into one,
that the world may know that You have sent Me and have loved them even as You have loved Me. (John 17:22,23)

And here again we see the need for the growth of God within those in whom He has come to indwell.
Please read these verses prayerfully with a opened heart. Every word is critical.

That we may be no longer little children tossed by waves and carried about by every wind of teaching in the sleight of men, in craftiness with a view to a system of error, But holding to truth in love, we may grow up into Him in all things, who is the Head, Christ,
Out from whom all the Body, being joined together and being knit together through every joint of the rich supply and through the operation in the measure of each one part, causes the growth of the Body unto the building up of itself in love. (Eph. 4:14-16)

And again this growing is about the growth of God within the churching people.

. . . holding the Head, out from whom all the Body, being richly supplied and knit together by means of the joints and sinews, grows with the growth of God. (See Col. 2:19)

This emphasis on the growth of Christ within for His purpose is being recovered in these last days before His coming.
Pray that you and I be a part of this remnant giving heed to the growth, perfecting, conforming to Christ individually and corporately.
This will woo the Lord, the loving Bridegroom back to receive a mature remnant of overcomers. They like Gideon's army of 300
must be used by the Lord to break through for the sake of the whole universal body of His saints.

 

[Brightfame52]

Okay. You may take it that way and be completely right.
I thank God for that if that is what it means.

I use this predestination matter to have faith that the Lord will perfect me into His image.
That did not happen instantaneously when I was born again.

And all the saints saved must pass through a process of being perfected into one with the Triune God.
Right here in Jesus Christ mighty petition to the Father -

And the glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, even as We are one;
I in them, and You in Me, that they may be perfected into one,
that the world may know that You have sent Me and have loved them even as You have loved Me. (John 17:22,23)

And here again we see the need for the growth of God within those in whom He has come to indwell.
Please read these verses prayerfully with a opened heart. Every word is critical.

That we may be no longer little children tossed by waves and carried about by every wind of teaching in the sleight of men, in craftiness with a view to a system of error, But holding to truth in love, we may grow up into Him in all things, who is the Head, Christ,
Out from whom all the Body, being joined together and being knit together through every joint of the rich supply and through the operation in the measure of each one part, causes the growth of the Body unto the building up of itself in love. (Eph. 4:14-16)

And again this growing is about the growth of God within the churching people.

. . . holding the Head, out from whom all the Body, being richly supplied and knit together by means of the joints and sinews, grows with the growth of God. (See Col. 2:19)

This emphasis on the growth of Christ within for His purpose is being recovered in these last days before His coming.
Pray that you and I be a part of this remnant giving heed to the growth, perfecting, conforming to Christ individually and corporately.
This will woo the Lord, the loving Bridegroom back to receive a mature remnant of overcomers. They like Gideon's army of 300
must be used by the Lord to break through for the sake of the whole universal body of His saints.

Thats the people and only people who are objects of Gods Love and Christs shed blood, and the Spirits regeneration.

 

[oikonomia]

Thats the people and only people who are objects of Gods Love and Christs shed blood, and the Spirits regeneration.

I believe unbelievers, for whom you and I have no inside knowledge whether they be will saved or not, are objects
of His love. I believe God wants me, not knowing these matters of which He may have transcendent foreknowledge, wants me to love them and share the good news with them. Afterall someone/s had to have had a burden that I myself be given a chance to receive Jesus Christ.

Now how will standing on your belief here help us to be perfected as Christ prayed?

And I do not ask concerning these only, but concerning those also who believe into Me through their word,
That they all may be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You,
that they also may be in Us; that the world may believe that You have sent Me. (John 17:20,21)

I in them, and You in Me, that they may be PERFECTED into one,
that the world may know that You have sent Me and have loved them even as You have loved Me. (v.23)

 

[zoidar]

Thats just your opinion. Nevertheless a People have been in Christ since before the foundation. Eph 1:4

Greet Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners, who are outstanding among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
— Romans 16:7

Obviously there was a time when Paul wasn't in Christ, since Andronicus and Junias were in Christ before him.

 

[Brightfame52]

Greet Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners, who are outstanding among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
— Romans 16:7

Obviously there was a time when Paul wasn't in Christ, since Andronicus and Junias were in Christ before him.

Im not explaining nothing to you, all these posts I have been explaining and you reject it all.

 

[oikonomia]

Greet Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners, who are outstanding among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
— Romans 16:7

Obviously there was a time when Paul wasn't in Christ, since Andronicus and Junias were in Christ before him.

Romans 16:7 interesting and best of all wonderful. I never noticed this aspect of it.

I practice to Amen the word of God whatever it says. We can trust the Father even if there are paradoxes
hard to understand or explain. There is some inherent limitation until we are able to see everything as much as
possible through the eyes of Christ to whom we must be conformed.

Did you notice places where Paul said he speaks according to man?

Brothers, I speak according to man, . . . (Gal. 3:15)

Is the God who inflicts wrath unrighteous? I speak according to man. (Rom. 3:5)