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Reasonable adjustments

pdudgeon

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Yes, demon possession exists. Yes, mental illness exists.

It is the casual connection of the two, without thought for the effect of that on anyone listening, that I object to. Why make such a connection, when we would not associate cancer, or kidney disease, or aortic aneurisms with demon possession? Why do we think it is ok to stigmatise people who are already vastly disadvantaged?

Why is my very real pain at this casual, thoughtless connection regarded as an attack on N? What is that all about?

And why did the Vicar walk out of my house?
agreed, there should not be a pro forma connection made unless it was done after a successful casting out of demons.
the Vicar probably walked out of your house because he could not/would not accept that as a Vicar he is responsible for whatever happens in a church service.
The buck stops at his desk.

If there were inappropriate conclusions drawn by the laity during a service, the Vicar should have:
1. Counseled with the person who spoke and educated them as to why their belief was wrong, a well as to why it was inappropriate for them to voice it in a public worship setting.
2. The Vicar then should have come by your home to see if you had been affected by the incident, to assure you
of his sympathy, and tried to see if there was a way to go forward from that point. Only after doing all that above would he have had leave to walk out of your house.
3. the one thing that would have superceeded all of the above would have been if he had an emergency elsewhere
that called for his presence.
Otherwise you should have been a priority on his schedule,
or else before leaving he should have freely admitted that he had no other options to offer.
4. if he was out of options (which can happen)
then you would have been free to explore other areas of relief for your situation.

5. somehow it is always a shock to find ourselves at the end of our options, especially where a church is concerned.
I've been there, so i know that it does happen.
But at the same time there should be a point of release that is mutually reached by both parties in the conflict---not just on one side like this was.

The point is, he walked out without closure and left you standing there holding the bag.
That's what shouldn't have happened.
 
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Paidiske

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There is no excuse for connecting people today who are mentally ill with people of 2000 years ago who were possessed by demons. There is no evidence in the Gospel that this link is appropriate, and there is already so much stigma against mentally ill people that we really don't need any more. The metaphor for mentally ill people is Christ on his cross, not someone possessed by demons.

I think the reason this happens is that it seems that in the ancient world, there was no clear distinction between - for want of a better word - what today we would divide into spiritual problems and health problems. Many people read these gospel accounts and do not believe that there were actual demons exorcised, but that this (and other accounts of exorcisms) were cases of mental illness being healed. So - in their minds - when they then make a link with mental health problems today, it's not because they believe the mentally ill are possessed, but because they believe that all those who used to be thought to be possessed were simply mentally ill.

Now, different people will have different positions on that. I myself am not so sure that it is that simple. But there is some support for those ideas in the texts and that's why the connection is made.

But that does not absolve anyone of the responsibility to be incredibly careful in how they speak of these matters.

Since the Church of England is a state church, with the Queen both the head of the church and the head of the government in some mostly ceremonial respects, could you sue over this?

Goodness, F&B, maybe one might try gentler approaches first? I'd look into what the formal avenues are for complaint. I don't know what the C of E is like, do I remember that they don't have anyone like a Director of Professional Standards for a diocese?
 
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Fish and Bread

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Goodness, F&B, maybe one might try gentler approaches first?

Almost certainly. The original poster did say that "There is supposed to be space for reasonable adjustments for disabled people under UK legislation.", though. So, it's not a huge leap to mention suing of one of many possibilities that one might consider when the person involved has already alleged that a law is being broken.

However, I will admit here that I am going through a tough spot that I can't really talk about for legal reasons, and is entirely not my fault. It doesn't involve a church. I'm sure that effects my posting style to some degree and will continue to until such a time as the situation I'm in is resolved in my favor.

I'm probably not in the right frame of mind for a religion forum right now, to be honest. Or maybe this is exactly the frame of mind where one should seek out a religious forum. One could argue either way on the question, which is not what this thread is about. :)

In any event, I hope that Catherine finds a good solution to her dilemma.
 
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Catherineanne

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In the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit .... Lord please do not let me offend or confuse with anything I say here. :crosseo:

I am so sorry that you are suffering. And even more sorry that the enemy has managed to capitalize on that suffering as a means to keep you separated from both the Body (ekklesia) and more importantly from the Eucharist. The delight of demons is to cause suffering and to separate us from God in any way they can.

I have learned that Orthodoxy is very much focused on the healing of the human soul, and on doing all we can to help every human soul be united with God, for the sake of love for all and out of honor for the desire of God Himself.

This is not something every parish priest is equipped to handle for every person though. And I do not know if you are open to such things. An Orthodox monastery would be the most likely closest opportunity to find help.

Please understand - I do not wish to be unkind. God's desire is not that we remain broken victims, even though that is how we may be when we come to Him. Such a state puts us too much at the mercy of demons, and turns our focus too much to ourselves. Not that it isn't necessary to focus on oneself sometimes, as I am myself learning right now, but if the focus never moves beyond ourselves, and we never heal our hurts but only nurse them (especially in the case of a wounded soul), then how can we open ourselves to health and withstand the attacks of the enemy?

Please, I hope you receive this in the spirit it is intended. I don't mean to be unkind, and my impulse IS to offer sympathy and compassion, but if nothing beyond that is ever offered - there will be only a temporary comforting and no real healing.

God be with you - I am praying for you.

Dear Anastasia, your words are like Spring rain; there can never be any offence in them. Thank you so much.

I have no idea where an Orthodox monastery may be found; the nearest Orthodox church is right over the other side of town. I have considered looking at Orthodoxy, because I share many (most?) Orthodox beliefs, but I have been an Anglican such a long time; I am not sure how easy it would be to become someone else.

You are right, I have to find a way to use this situation for good, eventually. Meanwhile there is no need to go to church to find Christ; you just have to look.

In relation to my situation, everyone concerned is good and honourable; I already told the Vicar that in my very first email to him. A way will be found.

And even if it isn't, they can't go back to not being aware of this. Not now.
 
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Catherineanne

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Yes, you probably did overreact in church but that is understandable due to your condition. I suffer with depression and anxiety but i may react differently but thats because we are all different. I can see that in all probability no harm was meant to anyone in the church. At least i hope that is right otherwise i would be looking for another place of worship!

In our church we have people with all different kinds of issues. I have been an EHMC and i know that distribution is to anyone regardless of type of illness. I know as i have been out giving communion myself.

Sad state of affairs when some are excluded from communion!!

No harm is meant the first time; it is an accident of whatever anyone wants to say. Good people sometimes say the wrong thing; that is normal enough. I am sure I do it all the time.

My concern has been with the next time; what is it then?

If someone says to me, actually, saying (insert word of choice here) is not neutral, but has the potential to hurt (insert minority of choice here), is a reasonable response to say, those people are just too sensitive?

I do not think anyone regards me as excluded from communion. That is not visible to them.
 
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Catherineanne

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Since the Church of England is a state church, with the Queen both the head of the church and the head of the government in some mostly ceremonial respects, could you sue over this? I am not necessarily recommending that you do, I'm just wondering if it might be an option in your situation given exactly which church this is in which country. There are in some countries special protections that extend to how government employees must deal with disabled persons that go above and beyond what protections exist in terms of how private businesses or independent religious organizations must deal with disabled persons. Since in some senses the Church is a government institution in this case, one might consider the priest a government employee and thus...

It's just a thought. I have no idea how British law works in that regard.

The Church is my mother. I will never sue my mother. Nice mental image, but no, it is not going to happen. The Church has to choose to be nice; I won't force that. I will just say, excuse me, can you be nice?

And then I will wait.
 
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Catherineanne

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The point is, he walked out without closure and left you standing there holding the bag.
That's what shouldn't have happened.

Yes, that happened. Thank you.

I ought to say we are not talking about a heartless person here. This is a good man who I think believed at that point that he was defending N (the person who said the prayer) from an unwarranted attack.

From his own point of view he was doing what shepherds do; protecting. He said he was not going to make a choice against N; I said that is not what I am asking for; it is not about choosing sides.

Regardless of whether I end up back there or not, I think the status quo on this one has gone forever. I may have been the only one sensitised to it before, I don't think I still am the only one.

Thank you all for your help and support on this thread. I welcome honest views, from all sides; they help me to step away from the emotion, and formulate my thoughts properly. I know that I get easily overwhelmed, no matter how hard I try not to be.
 
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Catherineanne

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I think the reason this happens is that it seems that in the ancient world, there was no clear distinction between - for want of a better word - what today we would divide into spiritual problems and health problems. Many people read these gospel accounts and do not believe that there were actual demons exorcised, but that this (and other accounts of exorcisms) were cases of mental illness being healed. So - in their minds - when they then make a link with mental health problems today, it's not because they believe the mentally ill are possessed, but because they believe that all those who used to be thought to be possessed were simply mentally ill.

Yes, that is a very fair summary.

We very often default from 'demon possesssed' to 'mentally ill', even though there is no evidence that this default is reasonable. The description of the man after the demons were cast out is of a calm, perfectly healthy individual. He does not have any pathology that we are able to identify and it is not reasonable to make guesses; all we can say for certain is that he had a raft of nasty demons, which the Lord cast out.

Adding on to that given story a layer of 'mentally ill' may have been normal enough at one time, but today it is indefensible. We know that mentally ill people are not morally deficient, or weak, or sub human. We know that they are us; the normal people around us, struggling to cope with normal life, and carrying a terrible burden. Stigmatised, far less likely to be employed, far more likely to be the victims of crime than the perpetrators of it, and yet portrayed everywhere as dangerous. We already carry far too much baggage in the form of other people's prejudices and assumptions; in Christian terms our cross is already far heavier than we can manage, and we struggle to stay upright.

Why would we want to make that burden heavier by linking our situation with a man possessed by demons?

Simply getting to church is a huge effort for me. I have to overcome social anxiety to leave my house, and enter a large room full of people milling around and talking loudly. Then the milling stops, which is better, but the organ starts, and that is even louder. Loud noises are triggering, people are triggering, and I become very anxious and hypervigilant. At the same time I can't walk around, or leave; I have to sit when others sit, stand when others stand, all the time trying to deal with rising panic.

Other people see me standing there, probably looking unhappy. They see that I don't sing or join in the responses. They don't see the fight going on inside between the flight response and my own thoughts, trying to stay calm, to say that this is a safe place; that I belong here.

If I manage to cope with all of that for an hour without crying and then make it to the altar rail, and then go home again, the result is complete exhaustion. Nobody knows that; nobody sees it.

So in church I am already in a heightened state of alert, even if my mum is not unwell, and then that prayer happens.

Which is why I heard it and nobody else did.

Now, different people will have different positions on that. I myself am not so sure that it is that simple. But there is some support for those ideas in the texts and that's why the connection is made.

But that does not absolve anyone of the responsibility to be incredibly careful in how they speak of these matters.

Yes, that is all that is needed. Thought, and care.

This should really have been a very quick discussion, followed by, 'I see what you mean; I will have a quiet word. Give me a couple of weeks or so; don't expect too much too soon.' 'That's fine; thanks for listening.' End of story.

Thank you, Paidiske. x

Goodness, F&B, maybe one might try gentler approaches first? I'd look into what the formal avenues are for complaint. I don't know what the C of E is like, do I remember that they don't have anyone like a Director of Professional Standards for a diocese?

Don't worry; I am not about to sue anyone. :)

'Ain't no poor man yet was better for law, or for lawyers.' Mr Bunce. Barchester Chronicles.
 
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Catherineanne

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Almost certainly. The original poster did say that "There is supposed to be space for reasonable adjustments for disabled people under UK legislation.", though. So, it's not a huge leap to mention suing of one of many possibilities that one might consider when the person involved has already alleged that a law is being broken.

No, the law is not being broken. :)

There might be a case for saying that ignoring my request might lead to the church being on the wrong side of the law, but the church is no fool; chances are it is already exempt from legislation on this. Legally exempt, that is. Morally it ought to lead the way, not hide behind exemptions.

Either way, I am not about to try it and find out.

However, I will admit here that I am going through a tough spot that I can't really talk about for legal reasons, and is entirely not my fault. It doesn't involve a church. I'm sure that effects my posting style to some degree and will continue to until such a time as the situation I'm in is resolved in my favor.

I am very sorry to hear that.

God be with you.

I'm probably not in the right frame of mind for a religion forum right now, to be honest. Or maybe this exactly the frame of mind where one should seek out a religious forum. One could argue either way on the question, which is not what this thread is about. :)

This thread is about people finding safety, which means your post is spot on topic. I hope you find safety here to be who you are, Fish and Bread.

In any event, I hope that Catherine finds a good solution to her dilemma.

Thank you. I appreciate that very much.

I think my mention of 'reasonable adjustments' was just to suggest that a small change for them might make a big difference to me. And perhaps to take mental illness out of the untouchable category.

People don't realise how much of a difference there is between how physical and mental health issues are treated; it is everywhere.
 
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Goatee

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Whatever you are going through God is with you. God is all knowing and loves you. Easy for me to say forget what others are thinking but God knows you and is an understanding God.

I know what it is like to stand in mass and be quite while inside all hell is breaking loose. Nobody knows what is going on in your mind etc.

I hope that you will find peace with this anguish etc.

God bless you
 
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Catherineanne

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Whatever you are going through God is with you. God is all knowing and loves you. Easy for me to say forget what others are thinking but God knows you and is an understanding God.

I know what it is like to stand in mass and be quite while inside all hell is breaking loose. Nobody knows what is going on in your mind etc.

I hope that you will find peace with this anguish etc.

God bless you

Thank you, Antletems; it helps to know that you understand, although I am sorry you face the same.

God be with you.
 
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Paidiske

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There might be a case for saying that ignoring my request might lead to the church being on the wrong side of the law, but the church is no fool; chances are it is already exempt from legislation on this.

You might be surprised. A lady with a disability recently took my diocese to our Equal Opportunity and Human Rights Commission for our failure to accommodate her needs, and she won.

Not that I'm recommending that as a first line of action!
 
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Catherineanne

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You might be surprised. A lady with a disability recently took my diocese to our Equal Opportunity and Human Rights Commission for our failure to accommodate her needs, and she won.

Not that I'm recommending that as a first line of action!

Good for her; we need more such people.

Sadly, I am not one of them. Too fragile. :(
 
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~Anastasia~

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Dear Anastasia, your words are like Spring rain; there can never be any offence in them. Thank you so much.

I have no idea where an Orthodox monastery may be found; the nearest Orthodox church is right over the other side of town. I have considered looking at Orthodoxy, because I share many (most?) Orthodox beliefs, but I have been an Anglican such a long time; I am not sure how easy it would be to become someone else.

You are right, I have to find a way to use this situation for good, but please forgive me if I wait to find a new spiritual home until after all the problems associated with my mother are resolved first; that is likely to take all of my energy for some time. My plan for today is to go to see mum, and if her front garden hedge still needs cutting, to do that. But I also went to see an old school friend yesterday. She is nursing her very frail mother, so I spent some time with them both, and I didn't tell them anything about all of this; we spoke of our childhoods, and we spoke with love and respect to her mother. That was my Eucharist yesterday; today I will manage.

And on Friday I met Christ in the form of a man standing holding a broken plastic cup next to a coffee shop, asking for the price of a cup of coffee. I gave him the price of coffee, asked his name (Mark), and then gave him enough for cake as well. I said, you can't have coffee without cake.

There is no need to go to church to find Christ; you just have to look.

In relation to my situation, everyone concerned is good and honourable; I already told the Vicar that in my very first email to him. A way will be found.

And even if it isn't, they can't go back to not being aware of this. Not now.

I'm glad that I didn't cause any harm with my words.

I just wanted to mention - I wasn't actually suggesting that you convert to Orthodoxy. If a person is going to do that, it needs to be because they want to embrace it wholeheartedly and because they believe in it, not for any other reason. I know you are not of this mind, but it certainly isn't like when I grew up and people might go to this kind of Baptist church, then the Methodist, then that kind of Baptist, then Nazarene, then a reformed non-denom, with no issue.

But although you would not have access to the sacraments, it is possible that you might find some healing just in spiritual guidance, which would be available to you. It is possible a priest may be able to help - it's going to depend on the priest. I only suggested a monastery because they tend to be much more likely to address such things. But there is no requirement that one BE Orthodox in order to visit a monastery and receive guidance (though I will say up front that some of them adhere to the most ancient "rules" in terms of attending the Liturgy, and I wouldn't want that to bother you).

You have to decide what is right for you - I am doing no more than offering a perspective and a possibility of a source of help. I am by no means saying that you SHOULD do this or that - I'm in no position to judge that for you. You do have my prayers. I hope things work out well for you, and soon. God be with you.
 
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Catherineanne

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I'm glad that I didn't cause any harm with my words.

I just wanted to mention - I wasn't actually suggesting that you convert to Orthodoxy. If a person is going to do that, it needs to be because they want to embrace it wholeheartedly and because they believe in it, not for any other reason. I know you are not of this mind, but it certainly isn't like when I grew up and people might go to this kind of Baptist church, then the Methodist, then that kind of Baptist, then Nazarene, then a reformed non-denom, with no issue.

But although you would not have access to the sacraments, it is possible that you might find some healing just in spiritual guidance, which would be available to you. It is possible a priest may be able to help - it's going to depend on the priest. I only suggested a monastery because they tend to be much more likely to address such things. But there is no requirement that one BE Orthodox in order to visit a monastery and receive guidance (though I will say up front that some of them adhere to the most ancient "rules" in terms of attending the Liturgy, and I wouldn't want that to bother you).

You have to decide what is right for you - I am doing no more than offering a perspective and a possibility of a source of help. I am by no means saying that you SHOULD do this or that - I'm in no position to judge that for you. You do have my prayers. I hope things work out well for you, and soon. God be with you.

Thank you, Anastasia.

Sorry for the confusion; perhaps I was thinking out loud? I am not sure I really understood you to mean that I ought to change, but I have heard that so much in the past from RC friends perhaps I defaulted to reasons not to change too soon.

I have no problem with any church adhering to its own rules for any liturgy; if I am allowed to be present that is good. If I am asked to leave for part of it, that is good too. I understand respect for the Eucharist.

It would be a real help if I knew who I could talk to now, but I don't know anyone. I don't have the strength to go out and find someone, and I certainly can't even begin to explain where I am. I have a friend who is a priest (Anglican). The best I can hope is that I am able to go to see him next week some time, and have lunch with him. I already asked his opinion, and of course he was careful because he knows that I like my Vicar and that he has been kind to me, but my friend used the words 'pastorally insensitive.' I think those words may well apply. I can't say for certain because I am falling further into depression, further into blaming myself for not being as normal as everyone needs me to be.

An image came to mind this morning; I feel like a paraplegic who is only welcome in church when s/he is wearing prosthetics and looking normal. On those days when prosthetics are not possible and she turns up in a wheelchair she is not welcome. She is the same person, but if other people see that she is disabled that will upset them, so she has to stay away.

That is what it is like to have a disability that is never, ever mentioned. It becomes a matter of shame.

Thank you again.

In all of this I have not updated anyone on my mum; I went to see her and she is doing well, for now. She knows it will not be long; well, some of the time she knows. The rest of the time she doesn't; I am sure I would be the same. This is very difficult indeed to process without anyone to help.

Even if I were as wrong as wrong could be, this is not right.
 
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Catherineanne

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Sorry but typical American idea.....'Sue!' This is something that in all probability has been blown out of all proportion! Yes, people should be careful what they say but where does it stop? Who is the 'Minister' going to offend next? Its a very delicate situation indeed. Some are more sensitive and vulnerable than others but where does one draw the line in church?

The Bible draws the line for us, we don't need to fret about it. Our faith also tells us; do unto others as you would have them do unto you. We step into their shoes, we think, 'Would I like to hear this, if I were that person?' and we decide accordingly.

Psalm 82 (et al) has the answer; protect the weak and the fatherless. St Paul concurs in Romans 14: those who are strong in faith must protect those who are weaker.

This is in line with Jewish teaching in the Mishnah, which says that if a strong man wants a window open, but a weaker man needs it to be closed, it must remain closed. I can't find the reference for that one online, and I don't have a Mishnah handy. Sorry.

I need this particular window to be closed and have made a request. This is the first time I have made such a request in 3 years at my church. Now I am waiting for the answer.

The answer may be no, in which case I will have to do whatever I can to get through the storm on my own. But the Vicar can't go back to being unaware. He can try, but it can't be done.
 
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JCFantasy23

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Yes, demon possession exists. Yes, mental illness exists.

It is the casual connection of the two, without thought for the effect of that on anyone listening, that I object to. Why make such a connection, when we would not associate cancer, or kidney disease, or aortic aneurisms with demon possession? Why do we think it is ok to stigmatise people who are already vastly disadvantaged?

Why is my very real pain at this casual, thoughtless connection regarded as an attack on N? What is that all about?

And why did the Vicar walk out of my house?

The connection is troubling. It's a left over ignorance that some people used to think. I've had the same thing mentioned to me once that a person thought that anyone who had mental illness was because they were not a strong enough Christian yet so demons could torment them.

Even if the Vicar does not personally believe this, I can see how awkward it would be putting that connotation in there while talking about casting demons out of pigs. I've heard that some people think demon activity that Jesus healed in the bible was probably epilepsy.

I think you have handled this fine. You expressed your views to him in what sounds to be a reasonable way, but it sounds like he got a little touchy/huffy to me. I'm sorry he's handling it that way.

It sounds like you're going through so much - I can't even imagine. My sympathies and prayers :(
 
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Catherineanne

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The connection is troubling. It's a left over ignorance that some people used to think. I've had the same thing mentioned to me once that a person thought that anyone who had mental illness was because they were not a strong enough Christian yet so demons could torment them.

Even if the Vicar does not personally believe this, I can see how awkward it would be putting that connotation in there while talking about casting demons out of pigs. I've heard that some people think demon activity that Jesus healed in the bible was probably epilepsy.

I think you have handled this fine. You expressed your views to him in what sounds to be a reasonable way, but it sounds like he got a little touchy/huffy to me. I'm sorry he's handling it that way.

It sounds like you're going through so much - I can't even imagine. My sympathies and prayers :(

Thank you; I really appreciate the support.

It isn't easy at all; the sunshine helps, and being able to get out into the garden, but depression is never far away.

xxx
 
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FireDragon76

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If i may post here i would like to say that you took it too personal. I suffer with depression etc and what that person said would not have affected me. For me, he was just reminding people to pray for those with mental health issues.

I agree.

Also, the issue of mental illness and demon possession may be more complicated than simplistic answers such as never equating demonic possession and mental illness.

God can speak to us in different ways and i am sure you have just taken it wrongly. Obviously no harm was meant by that person to you personally or anyone else who suffers with mental health issues.

If we have psychic pain then it is easy to hear things the wrong way.

At the same time I can see Catherine is very concerned about stigma. Maybe she should have a talk with the pastor about her concerns and needs directly instead of using the issue of what is and is not OK to pray about. I also struggle a lot at any church because I have Asperger's and struggle with depression and anxiety as well, I'm broke financially and somewhat isolated from the wider culture- it's hard to relate to anyone when your experiences of the world are so different. You can bet that creates a feeling of alienation. But I don't feel ashamed too much anymore, it's not something I struggle with very much. If God is with us, who can be against us?
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