really not praying to Mary???

[Iollain]

Here we go again.

Veneration is used for the explicit use of reminding us of the loved ones in Heaven....OR as another example, it is in veneration that we erect a wall for fallen soldiers...as a reminder.

Veneration is NOT worship.

I venerate Mary, the actual person, by reminding myself of Her , and Her attributes that made her most Holy and worthy to be the Mother of MY Lord.

I venerate Christ's death by erecting a crucifix on my wall, so I am reminded daily of the love He had for us by giving Himself up to a most painful death.

See...the person who is unable to be present, whom we love and cherish, we use statutes as PICTURES to keep us focused on Heaven, and those who were on earth to help us obtain Heaven.

Saints are role models, and as such, lead us to Heaven if we imitate their strong virtues. In their humility and piety.

When we remember them, we remember their examples.

When we call on them to interceed for us, we are asking a part of Christ's body [which is undivided] who is now more alive than ever to help us by taking our petitions to the Lord so that we have a 'friend' in need to aid us.

IF you wish to insinuate, thats fine....but I am concerned with how well you comprehend.
IS it me? Am I not clear and concise?

I am sure being a chatterbox I should cut back on my writing.

Yes you are clear on what you yourself do, thanks.

 

[WarriorAngel]

I have some more veneration for you.

Numbers 21

6 Wherefore the Lord sent among the people fiery serpents, which bit them and killed many of them. 7 Upon which they came to Moses, and said: We have sinned, because we have spoken against the Lord and thee: pray that he may take away these serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people. 8 And the Lord said to him: Make brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: whosoever being struck shall look on it, shall live. 9 Moses therefore made a brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: which when they that were bitten looked upon, they were healed. 10 And the children of Israel setting forwards camped in Oboth.
I believe the issue is....veneration vs worship.

Veneration cannot be wrong, because God demanded it Himself in the OT...in the same era He said not to worship.

What is worship??

Worship is taking an object and BELEIVING that the inanimate object itself has super powers to be a god, and should be given homage to.

Veneration is an icon that is set up to remind us of the ONE we are thinking about in Heaven...
OR for the purposes I already presented.

Veneration of the brazen serpent.
Veneration of the Ark of the Covenant
Veneration of the wall erected for soldiers
Veneration of a Nativity scene to remind us what the season really is about.

ETC ETC ETC

 

[simonthezealot]

I have some more veneration for you.

Numbers 21

6 Wherefore the Lord sent among the people fiery serpents, which bit them and killed many of them. 7 Upon which they came to Moses, and said: We have sinned, because we have spoken against the Lord and thee: pray that he may take away these serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people. 8 And the Lord said to him: Make brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: whosoever being struck shall look on it, shall live. 9 Moses therefore made a brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: which when they that were bitten looked upon, they were healed. 10 And the children of Israel setting forwards camped in Oboth.
I believe the issue is....veneration vs worship.

Veneration cannot be wrong, because God demanded it Himself in the OT...in the same era He said not to worship.

What is worship??

Worship is taking an object and BELEIVING that the inanimate object itself has super powers to be a god, and should be given homage to.

Veneration is an icon that is set up to remind us of the ONE we are thinking about in Heaven...
OR for the purposes I already presented.

Veneration of the brazen serpent.
Veneration of the Ark of the Covenant
Veneration of the wall erected for soldiers
Veneration of a Nativity scene to remind us what the season really is about.

ETC ETC ETC

WA, haven't seen any NT stuff! got anything?

 

[WarriorAngel]

WA, haven't seen any NT stuff! got anything?

Yep, i've got a monster headache....
O you meant you wanted verses...and stuff.

1 Corinthians 1 18 For the word of the cross, to them indeed that perish, is foolishness; but to them that are saved, that is, to us, it is the power of God.

I suppose we should also venerate the cross...dont you think??

Do you own one??

 

[WarriorAngel]

O, and before I forget.......we are told in the OT not to worship false gods...right?

So using the OT to show ALSO veneration only makes sense.

 

[Iollain]

How do ya call looking at a snake statue venerating it?

The Ark is a bit different:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/ark.html

I don't think that reminding people of Jesus's birth is considered venerating.

 

[mike1reynolds]

Snake statue? Huh?

No, we don't venerate Jesus we worship Him. What is the confusion here?

 

[Iollain]

Yep, i've got a monster headache....
O you meant you wanted verses...and stuff.

1 Corinthians 1 18 For the word of the cross, to them indeed that perish, is foolishness; but to them that are saved, that is, to us, it is the power of God.

I suppose we should also venerate the cross...dont you think??

Do you own one??

Will pray for you about that headache

How does one venerate a cross?

 

[Iollain]

Snake statue? Huh?

No, we don't venerate Jesus we worship Him. What is the confusion here?

Mike you have to catch up here lol

 

[simonthezealot]

Yep, i've got a monster headache....
O you meant you wanted verses...and stuff.

1 Corinthians 1 18 For the word of the cross, to them indeed that perish, is foolishness; but to them that are saved, that is, to us, it is the power of God.

I suppose we should also venerate the cross...dont you think??

Do you own one??

You think this shows veneration? they're talking about the action on the cross,not the noun in the word cross.

 

[Peaceful Dove]

How do ya call looking at a snake statue venerating it?

The Ark is a bit different:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/ark.html

I don't think that reminding people of Jesus's birth is considered venerating.

You know Iollain, I really like you, enjoy you and think I share Christ's love with you most of the time.
I have to be honest, sister, when you start insisting you know what Catholics feel, think and do where Mary is concerned, I get really upset with you.

What is it? Why don't you ever accept what we say we do? You find these far out things and try to paint us all with the same brush.

How many times have you been told that worshiping anyone except the Holy Trinity is idolatry in the eyes of the Catholic Church and a Mortal Sin.

 

[Iollain]

You know Iollain, I really like you, enjoy you and think I share Christ's love with you most of the time.
I have to be honest, sister, when you start insisting you know what Catholics feel, think and do where Mary is concerned, I get really upset with you.

What is it? Why don't you ever accept what we say we do? You find these far out things and try to paint us all with the same brush.

How many times have you been told that worshiping anyone except the Holy Trinity is idolatry in the eyes of the Catholic Church and a Mortal Sin.

Well thanks

I'm not insisting on what Catholics feel, i realize that some of if not a lot of this stuff is not what your everyday Catholic believes, but the RC saints and popes seem to disagree with ya'll, this stuff is a reality.

 

[WarriorAngel]

How do ya call looking at a snake statue venerating it?

The Ark is a bit different:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/ark.html

I don't think that reminding people of Jesus's birth is considered venerating.

Because sweetie, you do not understand what venerate is as opposed to worship.

This is why we go round and round with ppl who say we worship statues...when we do not.

Ok, let me TRY to simplify this.

The serpent was not a god, but it could heal. Ok...why was that??
Because it was a REMINDER OF GOD'S promise to them that it would...and they believed.

The ARK was NOT God, but He Himself put His Laws on them, and therefore it was Holy and to be venerated.

I am sure you own a cross. Is the cross your god with special powers? Or is it a holy symbol of the Lord?

O yea...in a brain fog, but I have another New Testament veneration for you folks.

(1 Corinthians 6:19) and which are by Him to be raised to eternal life and to be glorified are to be venerated by the faithful, for through these [bodies] many benefits are bestowed by God on men,

"If the clothes, the kerchiefs (Acts 19:12), if the shadow of the saints (Acts 5:15), before they departed from this life, banished diseases and restored strength, who will have the hardihood to deny that God wonderfully works the same by the sacred ashes, the bones, and other relics of the saints ? This is the lesson we have to learn from that dead body which, having been accidentally let down into the sepulchre of Eliseus, "when it had touched the bones of the Prophet, instantly came to life" (2 Kings 13:21, and cf. Sirach 48:14).

ACTS 19:11.
And God wrought by the hand of Paul more than common miracles.

19:12. So that even there were brought from his body to the sick, handkerchiefs and aprons: and the diseases departed from them: and the wicked spirits went out of them.

 

[simonthezealot]

You know Iollain, I really like you, enjoy you and think I share Christ's love with you most of the time..

Me too!

I have to be honest, sister, when you start insisting you know what Catholics feel, think and do where Mary is concerned, I get really upset with you...

Sometimes the truth hurts, she doesn't so much quote how Catholics feel but rather how the church is telling them to think, her points are spot on in many cases.

What is it? Why don't you ever accept what we say we do? You find these far out things and try to paint us all with the same brush. ...

Its not about accepting you. It's the "church" you follow.

How many times have you been told that worshiping anyone except the Holy Trinity is idolatry in the eyes of the Catholic Church and a Mortal Sin.

Amen, Dove!

 

[Peaceful Dove]

How do ya call looking at a snake statue venerating it?

The Ark is a bit different:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/ark.html

I don't think that reminding people of Jesus's birth is considered venerating.

Well thanks

I'm not insisting on what Catholics feel, i realize that some of if not a lot of this stuff is not what your everyday Catholic believes, but the RC saints and popes seem to disagree with ya'll, this stuff is a reality.

You know, the Church does go in cycles. That is the truth.
Just like the "Indulgence" thing. Catholic people are human and flawed. Things do take off and get carried away. But the one thing about the Catholic Church is it is always correcting itself. That is the truth.
When I first became a Catholic, back before Vatican II, there was pretty extreme Marian veneration. I had some problems dealing with it.
Vatican II came along and the Church refocused. That is not to say, everyone followed peacefully. It was a tough time in the Church and some folks had to be brought along with some sensitivity.

The veneration to Mary and the Saints have indeed changed. Much of what you quote needed to be corrected.

This is not a simple thing but a complex thing because the Clergy is dealing with a billion Catholics from all sorts of cultures and yes, even superstitions.

Please be patient with us, Sister.

Let us work at re-defining what veneration is. We teachers are really working at it.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Sometimes the truth hurts, she doesn't so much quote how Catholics feel but rather how the church is telling them to think, her points are spot on in many cases.

I know more Catholics than both of you...besides my family, my parish Church I attend and my friends...

AND I assure you NO ONE worships statutes.

Owning a statute that has a religious figure we USE to remind us to pray...is not worshipping the said statute itself.

Statutes are not living...nor can the cement mold or whatever do anything for us.

They remind us of who WE CAN ask to interceed for us.

Just because someone stops and prays IN FRONT of a statute does NOT mean they are praying to the inanimate object....but are praying to the one it symbolizes.

And when I say 'pray to...' it means to have a conversation with. To seek their intercession and help in prayer to the Lord.

Worship and prayer to God is another subject.We pray to God in worship.....and conversation.


AND do NOT tell me what my religion believes or does not believe.

It gives me a headache.

 

[Iollain]

You know, the Church does go in cycles. That is the truth.
Just like the "Indulgence" thing. Catholic people are human and flawed. Things do take off and get carried away. But the one thing about the Catholic Church is it is always correcting itself. That is the truth.
When I first became a Catholic, back before Vatican II, there was pretty extreme Marian veneration. I had some problems dealing with it.
Vatican II came along and the Church refocused. That is not to say, everyone followed peacefully. It was a tough time in the Church and some folks had to be brought along with some sensitivity.

The veneration to Mary and the Saints have indeed changed. Much of what you quote needed to be corrected.

This is not a simple thing but a complex thing because the Clergy is dealing with a billion Catholics from all sorts of cultures and yes, even superstitions.

Please be patient with us, Sister.

Let us work at re-defining what veneration is. We teachers are really working at it.

I'm glad your working on this

But why doesn't the pope put his foot down? Probably cause they encourage the stuff.

 

[Iollain]

Me too!

another person that like me even though i'm cantankerous!

 

[WarriorAngel]

Put his foot down about what exactly??

 

[Trento]

You think this shows veneration? they're talking about the action on the cross,not the noun in the word cross.

To those puffed up with the wisdom of this world, the sight of the Son of God hanging from a cross is a stumbling block, a sign of offense. But to those of us who are being saved, it is the power of God, the wisdom of God, the love of God. And since His strength is made perfect in weakness, the crucifix is the still life caricature of the triumph of Holy love over selfish sin. Far from being the low point of Christ’s life and something to be brushed aside or forgotten, the crucifixion is the pinnacle of the Glory of God in Christ Jesus.

This crucifix keeps my heart focused on the lover of my soul; it keeps me submitted to the cross I must take up daily to follow Him; it reminds me how much he loves the rest of the world and how much he wants me to give to reach them.


In 1 Corinthians chapter 1 St. Paul tells us that

“we proclaim Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles. But to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For God’s foolishness is wiser than human wisdom, and God’s weakness is stronger than human strength.”​

Lest I forget Gethsemane,​

Lest I forget thine agony,​

Lest I forget thy love for me,​

Lead me to Calvary.​