really not praying to Mary???

[Iollain]

I've seen large outdoor nativity scenes before, but never one that was lit-up from the inside.

Mike, i'm teasing you, i tease people sometimes.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Excuse me...??

I did not say anything even relatively close to what you are suggesting.

Catholics do not do anything...such as worship statutes.

I plainly gave you the term 'venerate' from the dictionary.

Are you confused??

hope u find ur answer. I dont understand why they pray to mary as i dont believe mary was a virgin as jesus had brothers and sisters. And mary didnt have sex until after jesus was born.
So i dont see mary as being holy the only one that was holy was jesus as he was made whole. So go to the man himself. I am not bashing either just my view.

Well, you should research what brethren are in the ancient cultures.
Cousins are brethren...too.

No, Mary was ever virgin. But I am not going to go down this path again.
Need sleep now.

 

[WarriorAngel]

I've seen large outdoor nativity scenes before, but never one that was lit-up from the inside

I have plastic outdoor ones that light up. No joke.
Also have two sets inside...that are statute form.

NIGHTY!

 

[WarriorAngel]

No i said i put them outside so the peoples who see it will be reminded,

Why are you tempting them?

Admit it, refusing to have statutes or holy items that remind us ....is absurd if we even suggest anyone worships them.

 

[Iollain]

Might put a big sign that says, 'They don't serve breakfast in Hell' over the top of it.


...i dunno, i think some people do worship them.

http://www.smwa.org/Vigil_Informati...-05_35th_Anniversary/35th_Anniv_Holy_Hour.htm

 

[mike1reynolds]

Mike, i'm teasing you, i tease people sometimes.

Well, at least you aren't twisted, but I don't think making light of the nativity is especially humorous...

 

[Iollain]

Well, at least you aren't twisted, but I don't think making light of the nativity is especially humorous...

ok dude

 

[Debi1967]

Yes i own a Nativity scene, and you have just anathemaed yourself from the RCC.......well if you were a priest you would be anyways.

Statues are to venerate and whatever 'veneration' is given them is passed on to the one it represents in Heaven.

So when you put up your Nativity scene, where do you put it? Is it only for your eyes?

Do not people that you do not know how they are going to react to it seeing it as well and so therefore you cannot control their actions as to how they react to it?

So when the Church puts up something, it does not know the intent of people and how they are going to react to it and in the places to which they have seen misuse of it then they have most certainly tried to correct this misuse.

They are not for worship.

Nothing in Warrior Angel's statement equated her to representation to Worship either.... You have misrepresnted her statement, for one which is not for Laity to even do. Anthema cannot be declared even by a priest, secondly, and it would still mean that even if this was so she would have to answer to God.

And I want to know where you think you can tell anyone here that they will be anthemized? Or that if they were a priest they would be? Where is your source of information on this?

 

[Iollain]

So when you put up your Nativity scene, where do you put it? Is it only for your eyes?

Do not people that you do not know how they are going to react to it seeing it as well and so therefore you cannot control their actions as to how they react to it?

So when the Church puts up something, it does not know the intent of people and how they are going to react to it and in the places to which they have seen misuse of it then they have most certainly tried to correct this misuse.

They are not for worship.

Nothing in Warrior Angel's statement equated her to representation to Worship either.... You have misrepresnted her statement, for one which is not for Laity to even do. Anthema cannot be declared even by a priest, secondly, and it would still mean that even if this was so she would have to answer to God.

And I want to know where you think you can tell anyone here that they will be anthemized? Or that if they were a priest they would be? Where is your source of information on this?

She said statues are only reminders of the person represented, and that is not true, might be for her but that is not what the RC teaches.

The anathema is not for that particular one, it is in a long string of anathemas, i remembered wrongly. It does say they are commanded to teach about images, so i would assume they are not allowed to teach against ''''venerating'''' statues.





TWENTY-FIFTH SESSION, ON THE INVOCATION, VENERATION, AND RELICS OF SAINTS, AND ON SACRED IMAGES: "The holy council commands all bishops and others who hold the office of teaching and have charge of the cura animarum, that in accordance with the usage of the Catholic and Apostolic Church, received from the primitive times of the Christian religion, and with the unanimous teaching of the holy Fathers and the decrees of sacred councils, they above all instruct the faithful diligently in matters relating to intercession and invocation of the saints, the veneration of relics, and the legitimate use of images, teaching them that the saints who reign together with Christ offer up their prayers to God for men, that it is good and beneficial suppliantly to invoke them and to have recourse to their prayers, assistance and support in order to obtain favors from God through His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord, who alone is our redeemer and savior; and that they think impiously who deny that the saints who enjoy eternal happiness in heaven are to be invoked, or who assert that they do not pray for men, or that our invocation of them to pray for each of us individually is idolatry, or that it is opposed to the word of God and inconsistent with the honor of the one mediator of God and men, Jesus Christ, or that it is foolish to pray vocally or mentally to those who reign in heaven."



2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, "the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype," and "whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it."[70] The honor paid to sacred images is a "respectful veneration," not the adoration due to God alone: Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. The movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward that whose image it is.[71]

 

[Iollain]

.....and no, i got the Nativity specificallly for people passing to see, it is a reminder i hope that it is not 'Santa Day'.

 

[mike1reynolds]

She said statues are only reminders of the person represented, and that is not true, might be for her but that is not what the RC teaches.

So how does the following point or anything in the Catechism you quoted contradict the statement above? How does the fact that Catholic priest can't defy the RCC anymore than Lutheran priest can defy the ELCA, in any way shape or form address the fact of veneration, as opposed to your false assertions?

The anathema is not for that particular one, it is in a long string of anathemas, i remembered wrongly. It does say they are commanded to teach about images, so i would assume they are not allowed to teach against ''''venerating'''' statues.

 

[Iollain]

Statues are not 'just to remind'.

http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=44015

http://www.ewtn.com/entrustment/index.htm

http://kathleenkeating.com/news/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=22&Itemid=2

 

[mike1reynolds]

I never said they were. I consider them to be like subspace communicators. Everyone (at least in other threads) are so opposed to saint veneration because they think it means saints are omnipresent. That is nonsense, that is a command central, and how well you get through to the operators there depends on how good your connection is, which all depends on your mental focus. Anything that helps you focus on who you are trying to communicate with helps the spirit message get through more clearly.

That is what an alter is too, a means of focusing one's mind, but with an alter the focus is different. It is on worship, not just communication.

 

[WarriorAngel]

That is mere speculation...in fact it is liable speculation.
No one does anything with statues.

I find the 'insinuations' and the 'accusations' maddening.
May I be so bold as to say 'IF' ppl do anything with statutes it would be out of ignorance. And few and far between.

Statutes, not unlike photographs, remind us of those we love. Whether those who have passed on, or those with us....our most cherished possessions, BESIDES the person themself, is our memory of them in a tangible picture.

And in broader terms, those we wish we could emulate.
Imitation is flattery.....hence the new phrase...WWJD.

Mary is the most significant role model that every woman [and man] should aspire to.
Humility, chastity, obedience. These are the perfect virtues that MOST please the Lord.

As for myself...I shall keep statutes of Mary...for she is in Heaven. And we are to think of Heavenly things.
To aspire for perfection, and what better reminder than Our Lady?

I also keep statutes of Jesus. And a crucifix. For I am not ashamed of the love Christ shared in His death. A constant reminder.

AND let me be so bold to ask......
DO YOU OWN OR VIEW any Nativity scenes??
Made with statues?

Please show me where you got this....

are only reminders

My form of keeping the statutes IS for veneration.

The problem is NOT what I said...it is what you inferred that I said.

You thought perhaps that veneration was worship.
Which IT IS not.

And now, you know the difference.

Please stop insinuating things about what I said.

 

[Iollain]

Actually you were not talking about 'veneration' at all, seems you were trying to say statues in the RCC are only for reminders of the person they represent, and that is not so at all.

If i think 'veneration' of a statue is worship or not has nothing to do with it.

 

[mike1reynolds]

It is not the statue they venerate... You are intent on putting everything about this Apostolic practice, handed down directly from Jesus, into a derrogatory light.

 

[Iollain]

You'll have to tell that to someone who dosn't know better. They venerate statues. Jesus would not have 'venerated' statues.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Actually you were not talking about 'veneration' at all, seems you were trying to say statues in the RCC are only for reminders of the person they represent, and that is not so at all.

If i think 'veneration' of a statue is worship or not has nothing to do with it.

Here we go again.

Veneration is used for the explicit use of reminding us of the loved ones in Heaven....OR as another example, it is in veneration that we erect a wall for fallen soldiers...as a reminder.

Veneration is NOT worship.

I venerate Mary, the actual person, by reminding myself of Her , and Her attributes that made her most Holy and worthy to be the Mother of MY Lord.

I venerate Christ's death by erecting a crucifix on my wall, so I am reminded daily of the love He had for us by giving Himself up to a most painful death.

See...the person who is unable to be present, whom we love and cherish, we use statutes as PICTURES to keep us focused on Heaven, and those who were on earth to help us obtain Heaven.

Saints are role models, and as such, lead us to Heaven if we imitate their strong virtues. In their humility and piety.

When we remember them, we remember their examples.

When we call on them to interceed for us, we are asking a part of Christ's body [which is undivided] who is now more alive than ever to help us by taking our petitions to the Lord so that we have a 'friend' in need to aid us.

IF you wish to insinuate, thats fine....but I am concerned with how well you comprehend.
IS it me? Am I not clear and concise?

I am sure being a chatterbox I should cut back on my writing.

 

[simonthezealot]

It is not the statue they venerate... You are intent on putting everything about this Apostolic practice, handed down directly from Jesus, into a derrogatory light.

Mike, you like most people around here sadly confuse apostolic practice and late 2nd, 3rd and 4th century practices.

 

[WarriorAngel]

You'll have to tell that to someone who dosn't know better. They venerate statues. Jesus would not have 'venerated' statues.

O really?

Since He broke no laws of His Father, and He kept all things holy.
Do you suppose if He had been in the presense of His Father's STONE tablets, that He would not have venerated it??

After all......it was told to do so in the OT.

The ark itself was adorned with cherubim, and gold. And as long as they kept it holy [venerated it]...and they KEPT the laws, the ark of the covenant would protect them, and give them great powers.