really not praying to Mary???

[Debi1967]

quote=Assisi;27165209]

Here is my point. Praying for each other was suggest or told in James praying to Mary as though she is a dispenser of grace and all-powerful and knowing is quite another.

At the risk of going back to the start of the debate, nobody is claiming that Mary is all-powerful and all-knowing.

I ask Mary to pray for my marriage. And I ask my best friend to pray for my marriage.

I think you misunderstand the Catholic teaching[/quote]

Assisi,

Cinsidering this debate was OVER well OVER with and you were not the perons who thought it in their INFINITE WISDOM and DISCERNMENT to restart it then trust me .....Please I have no qualm with you

I do however have a qualm with someone that has not posted in months and then comes back and sees a Mary thread, so says "hey I think I will start there" without really using any discernment. So much so that even though I am the one taking her on in this thread about it, I am not the only one of her Brethren that feels the same way.

But see she has been told this many times over I might add. Instead of heeding the council of those that are her equals again she chooses to in HER infinite wisdom disregard that of what others around her think should be done as a whole, for that which she thinks should be done simply because SHE wants to and then wonders why others have little respect for her..... Respect is earned!

 

[Debi1967]

Here is my point. Praying for each other was suggest or told in James praying to Mary as though she is a dispenser of grace and all-powerful and knowing is quite another.

here is my point


As this has already been covered with you plz simon....you offered up no logical answer to this before and yet now you want to take it up with another

I also guess that you did not know that neither any of the Angels, nor the Saints in Heaven would be able to dispense God's Graces if God Himself had not first given them to them to dispense. So essentially, if not for God they would be nothing and have nothing. Who then is the Almighty? God of course.

But the same way God uses us here on earth as His vehicles, and does then through us dispense His Grace unto others, He also uses those in Heaven. Grace has been Given unto to you too as a Free Gift, and that is by the power if God. Why oh why can you not see that those in Heaven can have the same Graces and more because of them now being perfected?

this is from a post on page 15 (mine because I carry 40 posts per page)

Answer that Simon

You mean to tell me that we who are NOT perfectedmay dispense God graces but those in Heaven cannot? You mean that the Angels NEVER did this for God?

IMHO Simon you couldn't answer that because it made too much sense at the time and now you are figuring that because you see another poster in here that has not taken the time to read the thread then she will give you something you can chew on ..............

No let's back up shall we and have you answer that first

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

LLOJ subscribes

 

[Athanasias]

Not praying to Mary?
ok I will move it back since people are responding

Hey everybody

I am not here to bash or attack. But to really ask a question. I do hear Catholics say that they do not worship or pray to Mary. And I have heard their reasoning. I understand it much better than I use to while I am still not in agreement with the practice.

But I just read this prayer by Pope John Paul back in 1999 while he was visiting Poland and I cannot see how he is not praying directly to Mary and how He is not almost worshiping her. That is at least how I see it. But again that is why I am writing to find out How would a Catholic see this? Quote from prayer below...

"Mother of the Divine Son, watch over us, watch over our unshakable fidelity to God, to the Cross, to the Gospel and to the holy Church, as you have done since the first moments of our Christian history. Defend this nation which for a thousand years has walked the path of the Gospel. Grant that we live, grow and persevere in faith until the end.
"Hail, O Daughter of God the Father, Hail, O Mother of the Son of God, Hail, O Bride of the Holy Spirit, Temple of the Most Holy Trinity. Amen." - POPE JOHN PAUL II's
Address at Blessing of Marian Shrine
Poland, 1999 Monday, 7 June 1999
Notice the Mary "defend this nation" Mary defend the nation?

FULL TEXT AT THIS LINK>>
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/jo...lichen_en.html


Again, I am not wanting to bash. There is much about the Catholic faith that I really admire but I do not understand prayers like the one above. I could find more examples but I think the above will do.

Thanks for helping

Whatever Catholic said we do not pray to saints is wrong and just doesn't know his own theology.

We do pray to saints! The word Pray has a broad meaning, Any dictionary will show this. It can mean worship or communication to God. Or it can also mean to simply "ask another human being". The word itself comes from Prithie Or I pray thee, or I ask you.

When a Catholic prays to God he is asking God to help him and he is also worshiping God. But when a Catholic prays to Mary or the Saints, they are simply "Asking" those saints to pray for them to God. Just like you would ask your Christian friends(the body of Christ on earth) to pray for you we Catholics also ask our departed brothers(the body of Christ in heaven) to pray for us. We do this for several reasons.

1) We do not believe that Christ has two bodies(one in heaven and one on earth) we believe that there is only One body of Christ(Eph 4:4). That one body exist in both heaven and on earth.

2) We believe that God wants his Body to pray and intercede for each other (1 Tim 2:1)

3) We believe that the prayers of the righteous man avails much(James 5:16)
and who is more righteous than those in heaven?

4) We believe that those in heaven hear our prayers to them and offer them up like incense before Gods heavenly Throne(Rev 5:8) on our behalf.

We also see this understanding as a apostolic tradition that was taught and practiced in the early Christian communities and liturgies of the Christian Church.

We first and foremost pray to God directly and develop a relationship with him.
We do not worship saints. We worship God alone!

 

[clint25n]

Do Catholics believe humans become omnipotent once they die? I would think this attribute is God's alone, and necessary to hear everyones prayer. I think there were people in the Bible whom were reprimanded for attempting to speak to the dead, I could be wrong.

Also, just curious, what is wrong with praying to Jesus or God? Do you think He will not listen? Not give you the answer you are looking for?

 

[Athanasias]

Do Catholics believe humans become omnipotent once they die? I would think this attribute is God's alone, and necessary to hear everyones prayer. I think there were people in the Bible whom were reprimanded for attempting to speak to the dead, I could be wrong.

Also, just curious, what is wrong with praying to Jesus or God? Do you think He will not listen? Not give you the answer you are looking for?

No omnipotence is not attributed to Saints. It s a quality of God alone. Since there is not a infinite number of people in the world one would not need to be Omnipotent to hear many people prayers. If anything they could be called multinicient if that's a word. This mean God gives them abilities to hear many people prayers and pray for them. Given they do not have the distraction of mind and body we have also brings interesting theories into play. This is what St. John appears to be showing us in the book of revelation. I hope that helps.

 

[clint25n]

...God gives them abilities to hear many people prayers and pray for them.

Can you please point out the scripture which shows that we can pray to saints and they can hear multiple peoples prayer to intercede with God for us.

Thanks!

 

[katherine2001]

Do Catholics believe humans become omnipotent once they die? I would think this attribute is God's alone, and necessary to hear everyones prayer. I think there were people in the Bible whom were reprimanded for attempting to speak to the dead, I could be wrong.

Also, just curious, what is wrong with praying to Jesus or God? Do you think He will not listen? Not give you the answer you are looking for?

We do pray to Jesus directly, as well as to God the Father and the Holy Spirit. However, the Scriptures themselves tell us to pray for one another. The saints and the Theotokos are part of the Church, and therefore, they can and will pray for us (sometimes we don't even have to ask them to do it). God can act through whomever He wants to, and if He wants to give them the ability to hear our prayers, that is His perogative. Why should God be limited to only acting in ways that we are willing to accept? He can act through whomever He wants to, including the saints and His mother. He can also act through bread and wine, as He does in the Eucharist.

 

[clint25n]

...pray for one another

I agree we can pray for one another, but you are talking about people whom have died can be prayed to. It clearly does not say "pray to one another". And that is my point.

Do you have a scripture which shows we should pray to those whom have died to intercede for us?

 

[Athanasias]

Can you please point out the scripture which shows that we can pray to saints and they can hear multiple peoples prayer to intercede with God for us.

Thanks!

Sure in Rev 5:8 St. John shows this in heaven.

 

[clint25n]

Sure in Rev 5:8 St. John shows this in heaven.

It sounds like those in heaven can hear what humans say/pray (we don't know if this is sometimes or all the time). Can you show me a scripture which says we should pray to the Elders/Saints? These Elders could hear the saints prayer, but I would think from the teachings of the Bible, that these original prayers were directly to God, even though Elders could hear them.

Repeatadly in the Bible we are told to pray to God, but nowhere have I seen to men. Perhaps you might then want to interpret this scripture as Elders who indeed could hear the prayers men spoke to God (and possibly God only allowed them to hear it this one time, we don't know).

I'm still curious as to what some find wrong with praying directly to God or Jesus? Is there some sort of advantage to praying to Mary/Saints?

 

[Athanasias]

It sounds like those in heaven can hear what humans say/pray (we don't know if this is sometimes or all the time). Can you show me a scripture which says we should pray to the Elders/Saints? These Elders could hear the saints prayer, but I would think from the teachings of the Bible, that these original prayers were directly to God, even though Elders could hear them.

Repeatadly in the Bible we are told to pray to God, but nowhere have I seen to men. Perhaps you might then want to interpret this scripture as Elders who indeed could hear the prayers men spoke to God (and possibly God only allowed them to hear it this one time, we don't know).

I'm still curious as to what some find wrong with praying directly to God or Jesus? Is there some sort of advantage to praying to Mary/Saints?

Howdy. Oh there is certainly nothing wrong with praying to God directly. As a Catholic the majority of prayers I pray and first and foremost we are taught to pray to God directly. As a matter of fact if you go to a Catholic Mass the entire worship service is a prayer directed to God the Father through the Son and in the Spirit.

Here is how Catholics understand this passage. We see this passage as implying the communion of saints. In this passage in our opinion St. John is showing us that the Elders or saints in heaven stand before Gods throne and present to him the prayers of the saints on earth in the form of incense.

So yes your right those in heaven are aware of whats going on on earth. I would add as a Catholic that they take those prayers of those on earth to God. This is intercessory prayer like Paul said is good in the Body of Christ in Timothy letters. Now logically in order to take our prayers to God someone must have ask them to pray for us as least that is what this passage implies to us.

Is praying to saints advantageous? Well it can be. Just like it would be advantageous to pray to or ask another member of the body of Christ to pray for you on earth (the more prayer the better) so too would it be advantageous to pray to or ask a member of the body of Christ in heaven to pray for you and your needs. Intercession in the body of Christ is a good thing according to st. Paul. We know that St. James epistles says the prayer of the righteous avail much and who are more righteous then those in heaven with Jesus?

So that is how we Catholics view it.

I hope that helps!

God bless you!

 

[clint25n]

So that is how we Catholics view it.

Thanks... Yes, it does paint a good illustration of why Catholics pray to people.
However, my only concern is this. If everywhere in the Bible we are told to pray to God, and we come across a passage that we can interpret a few different ways... wouldn't it be more wise to interpret that to line up with all of the rest of scripture, instead of it standing by itself as an interpretation. A possibly dangerous interpretation.

Do you get the idea of what I'm asking.

The Bible mentions asking people to pray for me, but it does not say I should pray to people. Asking people and praying to people seem to be 2 different things. Prayer is also a form of worship. If God the Father wanted this possibility as an option, then I believe Jesus would have specifically told us, at least once.

We are told things like "There shall not be found among you [whom are].... a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead."

Also learn further from Saul..
"So Saul died for his unfaithfulness which he had committed against the Lord, because he did not keep the word of the Lord, and also because he consulted a medium for guidance."

So logically, if there is just as much that can be interpreted for it and against it, but Jesus literally tells us to pray to God, should we then be cautious of our interpretation, and only obey the Words of Jesus?

That's where I'm coming from. Do you see my side?

 

[Athanasias]

Thanks... Yes, it does paint a good illustration of why Catholics pray to people.
However, my only concern is this. If everywhere in the Bible we are told to pray to God, and we come across a passage that we can interpret a few different ways... wouldn't it be more wise to interpret that to line up with all of the rest of scripture, instead of it standing by itself as an interpretation. A possibly dangerous interpretation.

Do you get the idea of what I'm asking.

The Bible mentions asking people to pray for me, but it does not say I should pray to people. Asking people and praying to people seem to be 2 different things. Prayer is also a form of worship. If God the Father wanted this possibility as an option, then I believe Jesus would have specifically told us, at least once.

We are told things like "There shall not be found among you [whom are].... a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead."

Also learn further from Saul..
"So Saul died for his unfaithfulness which he had committed against the Lord, because he did not keep the word of the Lord, and also because he consulted a medium for guidance."

So logically, if there is just as much that can be interpreted for it and against it, but Jesus literally tells us to pray to God, should we then be cautious of our interpretation, and only obey the Words of Jesus?

That's where I'm coming from. Do you see my side?

Hi brother,

You have very good questions. Yes I can certainly understand your objections and I do see where your coming from. Perhaps I can explain the Catholic understanding of what prayer means which to me seems to be consistent with the biblical understanding. Sometimes the way Catholics use semantics and language can be a barrier to dialog with non-Christians. This we are learning in the ecumenical movement. So I shall try to explain from our side of things.

I understand that to a non-Catholic Christian when one hears the word pray they understand that to mean "to ask God or even to worship God". And that is very correct as that is one meaning(the primary meaning) of the term pray in Sacred scripture. However Catholics have always understood the term to have a broader sense. The word Pray has a broad meaning, Any dictionary will show this. It can mean worship or communication to God. Or it can also mean to simply "ask another human being". The word itself comes from Prithie Or I pray thee, or I ask you. In some older versions of the bible like the KJV you find people saying the word pray when they mean ask another human being.

When a Catholic prays to God he is asking God to help him and he is also worshiping God. But when a Catholic prays to Mary or the Saints, they are simply "Asking" those saints to pray for them to God. In other words they are asking the Body of Christ in heaven to intercede for a prayer intention to God on thier behalf Just like you would ask your Christian friends(the body of Christ on earth) to pray for you we Catholics also ask our departed brothers(the body of Christ in heaven) to pray for us.

We Catholics do not view this as a violation to the Old testament injunction against mediums or sorcery because the practice is complelety different spiritual and physically. We do not get mediums like the witch of endor to try to bring up a dead person for us like Saul did in the Old testament in 1 sam28 or to try to gather information about the future, we simply trust God that his cross is so powerful that nothing not even death can separate us from the love of Christ and ask his saints in heaven to take a prayer to him for our needs like revelation implies. We do use caution when interpreting the sacred scripture. One way Catholics check certain scriptural interpretations are by looking to the early Christians centuries 1-8 and how they practiced their faith in Jesus. The early Christians who were quick to condemned heresy and call councils to deal with heresy never had a problem with this practice and even cited the verses of Rev 5 as a text they understood it to mean intercessory prayer of saints in heaven. The Catacombs of the early Christians show that prayer to Mary and saints were invoked as well as early christian funeral sites and tombstones also revealed this.

So to us Catholics we see this as rooted in sacred scripture implicitly and confirmed by the early Churches practice and understanding of scripture.

Just to sum up I will give a brief over view of our practice that I give to my students. I hope its simple enough and helpful so you can at least see why Catholics pray to saints or ask the body of Christ in heaven to intercede for them.


1) We do not believe that Christ has two bodies(one in heaven and one on earth) we believe that there is only One body of Christ(Eph 4:4). That one body exist in both heaven and on earth.

2) We believe that God wants his Body to pray and intercede for each other (1 Tim 2:1)

3) We believe that the prayers of the righteous man avails much(James 5:16)
and who is more righteous than those in heaven?

4) We believe that those in heaven hear our prayers to them and offer them up like incense before Gods heavenly Throne(Rev 5:8) on our behalf.

We also see this understanding as a apostolic tradition that was taught and practiced in the early Christian communities unanimously and liturgies of the Christian Church.

We first and foremost pray to God directly and develop a relationship with him.
We do not worship saints. We worship God alone!

I hope that helps. Let m e know if I confused you. Its has been wonderful talking to you!

God bless you always!

In Jesus through Mary,
Athanasais

 

[clint25n]

Hi brother,

You have very good questions. Yes I can certainly understand your objections and I do see where your coming from.

Ok, just one last question for you if you don't mind.

Is it okay if a Baptist or a Catholic decided they would only pray to God, and not to Mary/Saints? Would there be any problem with this from the Church if they were steadfast in this decision?

 

[Athanasias]

Ok, just one last question for you if you don't mind.

Is it okay if a Baptist or a Catholic decided they would only pray to God, and not to Mary/Saints? Would there be any problem with this from the Church if they were steadfast in this decision?

Sure the requirements for a Catholic are to develop a relationship with and pray to God, the Blessed Trinity. No one is required to pray to saints but it would be very beneficial. You see even if a Catholic withholds praying to saints they at least have to acknowledge that the saints in heaven can hear our prayers and will and do intercede for us as the Creed says we beleive in the communion of saints.

To me personally and to the Catholic faith in general Catholics do not view salvation as just a me and Jesus thing. Salvation is a of a corporate nature in Christ body by his design. Its me, Christ body ie the Church which is the instrument of salvation( the church is the instrument by preaching, teaching, baptizing, and praying for us) and Jesus. I have to acknowledge that at least but I still do not ever have to pray to saints ever only God. So to me I work on not only developing a relationship with Our Lord and Savior, the head of the church but also his body who can pray for us to be saved. This is why I usually I tell my friends yes I have accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior but I also accept Mary as my personal Spiritual Mother and the saints as my personal brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus Body of believers.

 

[Toti]

I believe in God,The Virgin Mary and Jesus, but I don´t go to The church.
I think The people have to reflect more about The Virgin Mary, Because The Virgin Mary has a special meaning for all The humanity.
The Virgin Mary left us many teachings for The way of The Lord, The Love, The purity, The innocense and Kindness.
Jesus left us the most important teaching in The way of God "The Love", the love in everything that we do and to be loyal to that, To live in The truth, To be rectitude of conscience.
To pray to God , The Virgin Mary and Jesus are going to give us a really big strength in everything that we do in the life.
The Virgin Mary and Jesus are going to help us to take us to The Father.

 

[boswd]

and one thing that I think is very often overlooked, is the majority of the time Catholics do pray directly to Christ.
Every Mass I have ever attended our Prayer's were always to God.

I think for whatever reason many non Catholic/Orthodox/Anglican's believe that they ONLY pray to Mary and the Saints and NEVER to Christ.
This is just not the case.

 

[Athanasias]

and one thing that I think is very often overlooked, is the majority of the time Catholics do pray directly to Christ.
Every Mass I have ever attended our Prayer's were always to God.

I think for whatever reason many non Catholic/Orthodox/Anglican's believe that they ONLY pray to Mary and the Saints and NEVER to Christ.
This is just not the case.

Yes you are right! This is a great point!