really not praying to Mary???

[Davidnic]

Hey Davidnic,

So, let me challenge that a bit just for some clarification.

If I ask my best friend (Agnieszka is her name )to pray for me, I ask her to pray to God that I may get better from illness, for God to protect me , get a job etc.

But what if I ask my best friend like this,
"oh Agnieszka, heal me, please protect me and get me that job."
To me that makes a very big difference. See what I mean? I mean that is how this prayer to mary seems to come across.

AGAIN> I am not saying this with any disrespect of trying to prove my point but I am writing that so I can see all of your responses and maybe understand more.

Thanks

I see where you have a problem with a language. And I can understand that. It is honorific poetic language. We accord Mary great honor and personally I have no problem with the language. She is the Mother of God and a great help to us.

Let's look at the quote from before:

"Mother of the Divine Son, watch over us, watch over our unshakable fidelity to God, to the Cross, to the Gospel and to the holy Church, as you have done since the first moments of our Christian history. Defend this nation which for a thousand years has walked the path of the Gospel. Grant that we live, grow and persevere in faith until the end.
"Hail, O Daughter of God the Father, Hail, O Mother of the Son of God, Hail, O Bride of the Holy Spirit, Temple of the Most Holy Trinity. Amen." -

So we ask her to watch over us. As mother of God and a mother to all of Christs brothers and sisters this is understandable.

It is asked that she watch over us in things that lead us to Christ:

watch over our unshakable fidelity to God, to the Cross, to the Gospel and to the holy Church, as you have done since the first moments of our Christian history. Defend this nation which for a thousand years has walked the path of the Gospel. Grant that we live, grow and persevere in faith until the end.

As far as the rest:

"Hail, O Daughter of God the Father, Hail, O Mother of the Son of God, Hail, "Hail, O Daughter of God the Father, Hail, O Mother of the Son of God, Hail, O Bride of the Holy Spirit, Temple of the Most Holy Trinity. Amen." Amen."

We often in our prayers to Mary use "hail" to echo the words of the angel at the Annunication. We are all sons and daughters of God since we are brothers and sisters in Christ.

This part:

"Hail, O Bride of the Holy Spirit, Temple of the Most Holy Trinity. Amen."

That is from our belief that Mary is the new ark of the conveant. As the old ark held the tablets of the law, the staff of the priesthood and the Manna from heaven.

She carried the New law, the New priesthood and the bread of life. She was, as the God bearer the new temple. The image how we all should love Christ.

I have to go for a bit, but I'll check back in later.

God Bless.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Just like I cannot say what is really in someone's heart that is jumping up and down screaming things in gibberish that perhaps no one else understands, we can only tell you what the Church teaches regarding Mary. Would not presume to know what is in the heart of an exuberant evangelical just by observing that act anymore than a devotee to a particular Marion practice.

Clearly and very publicly the Church teaches just as others have pointed out here that Mary and other Saints do not have the powers that some are claiming here as allegedly being evident from observing the practices of various groups of Catholics or examining published prayers (without understanding the beliefs behind those prayers). Unlike many other religions, these beliefs (and all the Church’s teachings) are very detailed and readily available to anyone with access to a library, bookstore or internet. So to say this or that is what Catholics really believe based on simple observation or even personal experience of some Catholics with no reference to what is publicly taught is unfair at best.

As to whether certain practitioners or former Catholics do or do not believe as the Church teaches regarding Mary is irrelevant. This is also evident whenever the Church can even be seen to privately and occasionally very publicly chastise people, usually groups of people, for going beyond or outside these teachings.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Scripture was/is the Word of God. You can't answer him because it is not in there.

2Ti 3:16
(16) All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Perhaps you SHOULD HAVE read ALL of what I said.

Let me quote it.

Here is something............
Maybe you overlooked this. BUT MARY WAS ALIVE when the NT was written.

You are NOT going to find any verses of prayer to Her in Heaven, when she was still alive on earth.

Does this make more sense???

 

[livingword26]

Perhaps you SHOULD HAVE read ALL of what I said.

Let me quote it.

You are NOT going to find any verses of prayer to Her in Heaven, when she was still alive on earth.

Does this make more sense???

No. As I said earlier, Jesus taught us how to pray, both by instruction and by example. His teaching on praying to the Father is very clearly outlined in scripture.

 

[sent one]

I see where you have a problem with a language. And I can understand that. It is honorific poetic language. We accord Mary great honor and personally I have no problem with the language. She is the Mother of God and a great help to us.

Let's look at the quote from before:

"Mother of the Divine Son, watch over us, watch over our unshakable fidelity to God, to the Cross, to the Gospel and to the holy Church, as you have done since the first moments of our Christian history. Defend this nation which for a thousand years has walked the path of the Gospel. Grant that we live, grow and persevere in faith until the end.
"Hail, O Daughter of God the Father, Hail, O Mother of the Son of God, Hail, O Bride of the Holy Spirit, Temple of the Most Holy Trinity. Amen." -

So we ask her to watch over us. As mother of God and a mother to all of Christs brothers and sisters this is understandable.

It is asked that she watch over us in things that lead us to Christ:

watch over our unshakable fidelity to God, to the Cross, to the Gospel and to the holy Church, as you have done since the first moments of our Christian history. Defend this nation which for a thousand years has walked the path of the Gospel. Grant that we live, grow and persevere in faith until the end.

As far as the rest:

"Hail, O Daughter of God the Father, Hail, O Mother of the Son of God, Hail, "Hail, O Daughter of God the Father, Hail, O Mother of the Son of God, Hail, O Bride of the Holy Spirit, Temple of the Most Holy Trinity. Amen." Amen."

We often in our prayers to Mary use "hail" to echo the words of the angel at the Annunication. We are all sons and daughters of God since we are brothers and sisters in Christ.

This part:

"Hail, O Bride of the Holy Spirit, Temple of the Most Holy Trinity. Amen."

That is from our belief that Mary is the new ark of the conveant. As the old ark held the tablets of the law, the staff of the priesthood and the Manna from heaven.

She carried the New law, the New priesthood and the bread of life. She was, as the God bearer the new temple. The image how we all should love Christ.

I have to go for a bit, but I'll check back in later.

God Bless.

Thanks Davidnic!
I had heard about Catholics believing that Mary is the New Ark and the biblical case for it. From time to time I watch EWTN . Thanks for your reply again. Yes, I really just cannot get around the language. I hope you understand.

May I ask one more question. Can you or any other Catholics (RC or OC) on here tell me which of the first 7 church councils talk about praying to saints or mary if any did? Thanks so much.
One thing I can say for sure, Catholics (OC and RC) know about those Early Church Councils! I wish more evangelicals did. It is good to know history I think! Just because.. well it is good to know history (soon to be history teacher)

Thanks again

 

[WarriorAngel]

No. As I said earlier, Jesus taught us how to pray, both by instruction and by example. His teaching on praying to the Father is very clearly outlined in scripture.

Philippians 1
4 Always in all my prayers making supplication for you all, with joy;
Acts Of Apostles 10
4 And he, beholding him, being seized with fear, said: What is it, Lord? And he said to him: Thy prayers and thy alms are ascended for a memorial in the sight of God.
1 Timothy 2
1 I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men:
Psalms 33
16 The eyes of the Lord are upon the just: and his ears unto their prayers.
1 Peter 3
12 Because the eyes of the Lord are upon the just, and his ears unto their prayers: but the countenance of the Lord upon them that do evil things.


Although I believe in the Our Father, Christ never said it was the SOLE prayer to pray.
How does God hear intercessions, supplications and prayer {in the plural] if we only say the Our Father?

Obviously there are many prayers besides the Our Father.

How come we are ordered to pray for one another??
Or how come the Apostles prayed for others?

There are also intercessory prayers, and supplications for one another.

Explain how that is, if you refuse to pray those types of prayers?

1 Thessalonians 1
2 Grace be to you and peace. We give thanks to God always for you all; making a remembrance of you in our prayers without ceasing,

 

[DrBubbaLove]

No. As I said earlier, Jesus taught us how to pray, both by instruction and by example. His teaching on praying to the Father is very clearly outlined in scripture.

so apply this line of thought to his lesson about Lazarus. If there was no reason or purpose for someone to being asking Abraham (a man no longer among us) to do something (a prayer request) then why show someone doing just that in setting up the lesson?
These people, these Saints we speak of that have gone on, are repeatedly shown in scripture doing things, interacting with both the living and dead. They are not shown asleep. Just as they did in this life it would make sense for them to be appealing to God (prayer) on our behalf. If one views them as still alive and attentive, it makes sense for us to ask them to appeal to God on our behalf the same way you would ask a friend here to pray for you.
Just my $.02

 

[WarriorAngel]

Thanks Davidnic!
I had heard about Catholics believing that Mary is the New Ark and the biblical case for it. From time to time I watch EWTN . Thanks for your reply again. Yes, I really just cannot get around the language. I hope you understand.

May I ask one more question. Can you or any other Catholics (RC or OC) on here tell me which of the first 7 church councils talk about praying to saints or mary if any did? Thanks so much.
One thing I can say for sure, Catholics (OC and RC) know about those Early Church Councils! I wish more evangelicals did. It is good to know history I think! Just because.. well it is good to know history (soon to be history teacher)

Thanks again

Below (Fathers*) = Early Church Fathers...first Christians. {AND sidenote; the catacombs are filled with prayers for the dead through Saints in Heaven.}
Assuming you know what the catacombs are.

Immaculate Conception and Assumption
Mary: Ever Virgin (Fathers*)
Mary: Full of Grace (Fathers*)
Mary: Mother of God (Fathers*)


The Rosary


The Intercession of the Saints (Fathers*)
Praying to the Saints
Saint Worship?
Do Catholics Worship Statues?
Relics

 

[livingword26]

Philippians 1
4 Always in all my prayers making supplication for you all, with joy;
Acts Of Apostles 10
4 And he, beholding him, being seized with fear, said: What is it, Lord? And he said to him: Thy prayers and thy alms are ascended for a memorial in the sight of God.
1 Timothy 2
1 I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men:
Psalms 33
16 The eyes of the Lord are upon the just: and his ears unto their prayers.
1 Peter 3
12 Because the eyes of the Lord are upon the just, and his ears unto their prayers: but the countenance of the Lord upon them that do evil things.

1 Thessalonians 1
2 Grace be to you and peace. We give thanks to God always for you all; making a remembrance of you in our prayers without ceasing,

Who do you think all of these people are praying to?

 

[sent one]

{AND sidenote; the catacombs are filled with prayers for the dead through Saints in Heaven.}
Assuming you know what the catacombs are.

Um... Aren't they something you comb cats with??

Hey thanks for the info.. I will check them out.

 

[HisKid1973]

Good interesting thread..Good respectful dialogue....Keep up th good work..Be nice if all GT threads were this respectful..you don't have to respond as i don't want to derail the thread.blessings.K

 

[Smileyill]

Very enlightening, thus far.

The major problem I have is the graven image, not so much the prayers. But either way, it's a teaching that must be extrapolated instead of taken literally. I have the same problem with the pentecostal teaching that everybody should speak in tongues.

I don't understand why clear commands such as "woman are to keep silent in the churches . . ." 1 Co 14:34 or "...When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification." 1 Co 14:26 are ignored while other vaguely implied teachings are practiced.

I guess, for me, it boils down to: If it's not clear, why practice it? If it is, why don't we?

 

[DrBubbaLove]

But some are presuming to know what a practice or teaching means based solely on observation of a particular manifestation of that practice, and this even in total disregard for what is clearly and very accurately published concerning that practice. Furthermore, in this case they are presuming based on not the practice of an entire group collectively but only on specific members. It would be no different than me basing my understanding of all evangelicals based on observing the practice of one particular group.

 

[Smileyill]

But some are presuming to know what a practice or teaching means based solely on observation of a particular manifestation of that practice, and this even in total disregard for what is clearly and very accurately published concerning that practice. Furthermore, in this case they are presuming based on not the practice of an entire group collectively but only on specific members. It would be no different than me basing my understanding of all evangelicals based on observing the practice of one particular group.

Could you explain more fully?

I have never observed anybody praying or bowing to Mary. I base my judgment on the explanation of why it's proper. Seemingly it's possible that the practice is ok, but it's not very clear. Yet when have you been to a service where everybody shares? A clear command on how to assemble. I have not, though I've attended where perhaps 1/2 do.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Livingword...do you always change the subject when you are answered?

You said I had no answers as to the scripture why we are not told to pray to Mary....the answer is, she was alive on earth still while the NT was written.

You said, no no, I only pray the Our Father....to which I said, we are to make supplication, intercession, and prayer to God...

NOW you went full circle and asked who the prayers are too.

WHAT does that have to do with anything, if I may ask?

AS stated earlier, [and yet much clearer by Davidnic]...prayer is a conversation, unless the Greek word is different.

When I pray to Mary, I am conversing with her, as I would my own mother on earth.

I have yet to see ONE single objection Christ had in ppl honoring His own Mother.

The verse...
48 "Who is my mother?"... This was not spoken by way of slighting his mother, but to shew that we are never to suffer ourselves to be taken from the service of God, by any inordinate affection to our earthly parents: and that which our Lord chiefly regarded in his mother, was her doing the will of his Father in heaven. It may also further allude to the reprobation of the Jews, his carnal kindred, and the election of the Gentiles.

 

[Smileyill]

Livingword...do you always change the subject when you are answered?

You said I had no answers as to the scripture why we are not told to pray to Mary....the answer is, she was alive on earth still while the NT was written.

You said, no no, I only pray the Our Father....to which I said, we are to make supplication, intercession, and prayer to God...

NOW you went full circle and asked who the prayers are too.

WHAT does that have to do with anything, if I may ask?

AS stated earlier, [and yet much clearer by Davidnic]...prayer is a conversation, unless the Greek word is different.

When I pray to Mary, I am conversing with her, as I would my own mother on earth.

I have yet to see ONE single objection Christ had in ppl honoring His own Mother.

The verse...
48 "Who is my mother?"... This was not spoken by way of slighting his mother, but to shew that we are never to suffer ourselves to be taken from the service of God, by any inordinate affection to our earthly parents: and that which our Lord chiefly regarded in his mother, was her doing the will of his Father in heaven. It may also further allude to the reprobation of the Jews, his carnal kindred, and the election of the Gentiles.

I have no objection to honoring our parents, if it helps. We are clearly commanded to do so.

However, when I see verses pulled together to form implications and allusions, it bothers me. The study of scripture is recommened. The Bereans were commended. But when we emphasize a practice which isn't clearly commanded of us, and ignore others with clear commands, something is out of place.

 

[livingword26]

Livingword...do you always change the subject when you are answered?

You said I had no answers as to the scripture why we are not told to pray to Mary....the answer is, she was alive on earth still while the NT was written.

You said, no no, I only pray the Our Father....to which I said, we are to make supplication, intercession, and prayer to God...

NOW you went full circle and asked who the prayers are too.

WHAT does that have to do with anything, if I may ask?

AS stated earlier, [and yet much clearer by Davidnic]...prayer is a conversation, unless the Greek word is different.

When I pray to Mary, I am conversing with her, as I would my own mother on earth.

I have yet to see ONE single objection Christ had in ppl honoring His own Mother.

The verse...
48 "Who is my mother?"... This was not spoken by way of slighting his mother, but to shew that we are never to suffer ourselves to be taken from the service of God, by any inordinate affection to our earthly parents: and that which our Lord chiefly regarded in his mother, was her doing the will of his Father in heaven. It may also further allude to the reprobation of the Jews, his carnal kindred, and the election of the Gentiles.

I can't imagine how I have changed the subject. The point of the conversation is "praying to Mary". Jesus taught us to pray to the Father. He didi not teach us to pray to anyone else. What does this have to do with honoring His mother? If He wanted us to pray to His mother, after she was "assumed", He could have told us that. But He didn't, nor did He teach us to pray to anyone else, alive or dead, but to God our Father. No where in the bible is Mary given omnipresence, or the ability to mediate, nor any other human. Jesus Christ alone is our mediator, and God alone is the recipient of our prayers.

 

[simonthezealot]

When I pray to Mary, I am conversing with her, as I would my own mother on earth.

I have yet to see ONE single objection Christ had in ppl honoring His own Mother.

Conversing?
Is Mary Omnipresent? if not, your prayers are only heard by God or if vocalized also by Satan.

If yes...
Wouldn't that make her a deity?

Honor is a respect due to the most blessed humans (Mary), but, IMHO don't waste your energy talking to one whom can not hear you, surely, this is displeasing to our Savior. There is but one mediator!

 

[Tonks]

I never hear many people admit to that.
Would Catholics agree with that?

Points to icon and avatar. Answer: Yup.

 

[Peaceful Dove]

Not praying to Mary?
ok I will move it back since people are responding

Hey everybody

I am not here to bash or attack. But to really ask a question. I do hear Catholics say that they do not worship or pray to Mary. ...
But I just read this prayer by Pope John Paul back in 1999 while he was visiting Poland and I cannot see how he is not praying directly to Mary and how He is not almost worshiping her....
"Mother of the Divine Son, watch over us, watch over our unshakable fidelity to God, to the Cross, to the Gospel and to the holy Church, as you have done since the first moments of our Christian history. Defend this nation which for a thousand years has walked the path of the Gospel. Grant that we live, grow and persevere in faith until the end.
"Hail, O Daughter of God the Father, Hail, O Mother of the Son of God, Hail, O Bride of the Holy Spirit, Temple of the Most Holy Trinity. Amen." - POPE JOHN PAUL II's
Address at Blessing of Marian Shrine
Poland, 1999 Monday, 7 June 1999
Notice the Mary "defend this nation" Mary defend the nation?

FULL TEXT AT THIS LINK>>
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/jo...lichen_en.html


Again, I am not wanting to bash. There is much about the Catholic faith that I really admire but I do not understand prayers like the one above. I could find more examples but I think the above will do.

Thanks for helping

I know what you mean. I know exactly how a prayer like this sounds to you. I have been there.

I have also stated, many times in these forums that Non-Catholics and Catholics have a different vernacular. We really do. I had to learn this and it was really hard.

Mary was mother of the most devine Son, she was daughter of the Father and we believe she was bride of the Holy Spirit. Boy, oh Boy. How to explain this. It was through the overshadowing of the Holy Spirit, Mary became truly pregnant. This was very Holy.
She was the temple of the Holy Trinity, if you believe her body was a temple (as ours are) where Jesus is, so is the Holy Spirit and the Father.

Man, the Holy Trinity is such a Profound teaching in the Catholic Church.
One of our most important Prayers is "Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, as it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen."
We bless ourselves and always glorifying the HolyTrinity.

We believe Mary, when she conceived Jesus, being overshadowed with the Holy Spirit was also overshadowed with the entire Holy Trinity. When she carried Jesus in her womb, also had the Holy Spirit and the Father present.

I know how hard this is to understand but we live with this.
We are not worshiping Mary but the fact that she lifts up and embraces and adores the Holy Trinity.

It is something our Spirit and our heart understands, not necessarily our minds. It is all about the Holy Trinity,but Mary is the vessell that embraces them.
That is the best I can do.