really not praying to Mary???

[PaulAckermann]

Not praying to Mary?
ok I will move it back since people are responding

Hey everybody

I am not here to bash or attack. But to really ask a question. I do hear Catholics say that they do not worship or pray to Mary. And I have heard their reasoning. I understand it much better than I use to while I am still not in agreement with the practice.

But I just read this prayer by Pope John Paul back in 1999 while he was visiting Poland and I cannot see how he is not praying directly to Mary and how He is not almost worshiping her. That is at least how I see it. But again that is why I am writing to find out How would a Catholic see this? Quote from prayer below...

"Mother of the Divine Son, watch over us, watch over our unshakable fidelity to God, to the Cross, to the Gospel and to the holy Church, as you have done since the first moments of our Christian history. Defend this nation which for a thousand years has walked the path of the Gospel. Grant that we live, grow and persevere in faith until the end.
"Hail, O Daughter of God the Father, Hail, O Mother of the Son of God, Hail, O Bride of the Holy Spirit, Temple of the Most Holy Trinity. Amen." - POPE JOHN PAUL II's
Address at Blessing of Marian Shrine
Poland, 1999 Monday, 7 June 1999
Notice the Mary "defend this nation" Mary defend the nation?

FULL TEXT AT THIS LINK>>
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/jo...lichen_en.html


Again, I am not wanting to bash. There is much about the Catholic faith that I really admire but I do not understand prayers like the one above. I could find more examples but I think the above will do.

Thanks for helping

As a Catholic, I disagree that we do not pray to Mary. I know I do, and I am proud of it.

You must understand that "to pray" simply mean means "to ask". That is what the word meant in Hebrew and Greek. If you look at a Bible Concordance, you would find that Sarah "prayed" to Abraham. When I "pray" to Mary and asking Mary to ask God for something for me.


Now, as far as Pope John Paul II's statement, true, it does sound more she is do the granting than just asking God to grant it. But there are many times in the Bible we have people with such strong faith that just speak and it is done. Jesus said that if you have enpugh faith you can command a mountain to move from one place to another. In the Book of Acts, we constantly see the apostle commanding the demons to leave someone, or command a person to be healed. If the apostles could cause miracles with such authority, she wouldn't the mother of God? Still, it is with the understanding that this can only happening because of God. No Catholic, not even John Paul, would ever say that Mary was able to do these things apart from God.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Correct, we never die spiritually. We're immortal either in heaven or hell. Also correct that we call Mary blessed. But so was Samuel.

Perhaps saints in heaven see all. Perhaps they pray for us. How does that imply we should ask them to pray for us? Scripture clearly states angels minister, yet we are never told to pray or bow before them.

I see 2 ways scripture teaches us. Either it commands us or an example is given and commended. We're never commanded to pray to the saints in heaven. The only example I recall is where King Saul prays to Samuel. I Samuel 28:14. There his actions are clearly wrong. When the rich man speaks from hell, his prayers aren't answered and who would look toward him or Saul as an example anyway?

WE DO NOT pray and bow as though they are God.

That is the mistake many infer or presume about the ancient Traditions.

WE pray to Saints, who in turn take our prayers to GOD...and Jesus is God BTW.
And Rev tells us that they do this.




James 4
10 Be humbled in the sight of the Lord, and he will exalt you.
1 Peter 5
6 Be you humbled therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in the time of visitation:

How about the veneration of relics??

ACTS 19
11 And God wrought by the hand of Paul more than common miracles. 12 So that even there were brought from his body to the sick, handkerchiefs and aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the wicked spirits went out of them.

No we are never commanded to pray to our brethren in Heaven....
But why would we not seek their assistance when they reside with the Lord, and offer up our prayers to God??

WE are ONE BODY.... and being in Heaven only amplifies their ability to assist us.

WHERE is scripture does it tell us that we must NOT seek their help??

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

You must understand that "to pray" simply mean means "to ask". That is what the word meant in Hebrew and Greek. If you look at a Bible Concordance, you would find that Sarah "prayed" to Abraham. When I "pray" to Mary and asking Mary to ask God for something for me.

So what about the Lord's prayer?

Would be kind of "odd" adding "Our blessed Mother of God who art...........".

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Young LT Matt 6:9 thus therefore pray ye: `Our Father who [art] in the heavens! hallowed be Thy name. 10 `Thy reign come: Thy will come to pass, as in heaven also on the earth. 11 `Our appointed bread give us to-day. 12 `And forgive us our debts, as also we forgive our debtors. 13 `And mayest Thou not lead us to temptation, but rescur you us! from the evil one, [because Thine is the reign, and the power, and the glory--to the ages]. Amen.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Angels always come to us, there is no calling on angels in the Bible.

So what about the Lord's prayer?

Would be kind of "odd" adding "Our blessed Mother of God who art...........".

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Young LT Matt 6:9 thus therefore pray ye: `Our Father who [art] in the heavens! hallowed be Thy name. 10 `Thy reign come: Thy will come to pass, as in heaven also on the earth. 11 `Our appointed bread give us to-day. 12 `And forgive us our debts, as also we forgive our debtors. 13 `And mayest Thou not lead us to temptation, but rescur you us! from the evil one, [because Thine is the reign, and the power, and the glory--to the ages]. Amen.

NOW you are really stretching it.

HAS it ever once been recommended to change the Lord's prayer??

What does the Our Father have to do with intercessory prayer??



Philippians 1
4 Always in all my prayers making supplication for you all, with joy;
Acts Of Apostles 10
4 And he, beholding him, being seized with fear, said: What is it, Lord? And he said to him: Thy prayers and thy alms are ascended for a memorial in the sight of God.
1 Timothy 2
1 I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men:
1 Thessalonians 1
2 Grace be to you and peace. We give thanks to God always for you all; making a remembrance of you in our prayers without ceasing,

 

[lionroar0]

Would be kind of "odd" adding "Our blessed Mother of God who art...........".

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Young LT Matt 6:9 thus therefore pray ye: `Our Father who [art] in the heavens! hallowed be Thy name. 10 `Thy reign come: Thy will come to pass, as in heaven also on the earth. 11 `Our appointed bread give us to-day. 12 `And forgive us our debts, as also we forgive our debtors. 13 `And mayest Thou not lead us to temptation, but rescur you us! from the evil one, [because Thine is the reign, and the power, and the glory--to the ages]. Amen.

Yes it would be "odd". Personally I would find it offensive.

Peace

 

[Smileyill]

WE DO NOT pray and bow as though they are God.

That is the mistake many infer or presume about the ancient Traditions.

WE pray to Saints, who in turn take our prayers to GOD...and Jesus is God BTW.
And Rev tells us that they do this.

James 4
10 Be humbled in the sight of the Lord, and he will exalt you.
1 Peter 5
6 Be you humbled therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in the time of visitation:

How about the veneration of relics??

ACTS 19
11 And God wrought by the hand of Paul more than common miracles. 12 So that even there were brought from his body to the sick, handkerchiefs and aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the wicked spirits went out of them.

No we are never commanded to pray to our brethren in Heaven....
But why would we not seek their assistance when they reside with the Lord, and offer up our prayers to God??

WE are ONE BODY.... and being in Heaven only amplifies their ability to assist us.

WHERE is scripture does it tell us that we must NOT seek their help??

The last part is where we differ. I ask why we should, you ask why not.

We never see it approved in the Bible. The one time somebody communicates with a heavenly saint, it is condemned (Saul to Samuel). I'm not hanging my hat on that example, perhaps it can be distinguished. But why teach what may be wrong? Further, why ignore clear commands (see my earlier posts)? We have limited time on this earth to teach and pray.

As for the veneration of relics, there is an example which bears fruit and is not condemned. Of course, it too can be distinguished. It's not something to divide us.

 

[HisKid1973]

I don't even see the need to call anyone other than our high priest and intercessor..we don't see Peter after Steven was martyred saying . OK , Steven is present with the Lord now we can petition..Or make a likeness of him to pray in front of..
i will stay on the safe side and pray according to the scriptures..I didn,t need to bury a statue or ask st joseph to sell my house like my nieghbor..
I said Lord , I feel you calling us to move,,You open the door..two weeks ater the ad showed we got an offer for more than we paid..pax..kim

 

[mike1reynolds]

Hey Skillganon! Still interested in Mary?

 

[lionroar0]

The last part is where we differ. I ask why we should, you ask why not.

We never see it approved in the Bible. The one time somebody communicates with a heavenly saint, it is condemned (Saul to Samuel). I'm not hanging my hat on that example, perhaps it can be distinguished.

Good insight. Saul went to a witch to conjure up a spirit(Samuel) to gain knowledge of the future. Asking those in heaven to pray with and for us is not conjuring up a spirit for divination.

But why teach what may be wrong? Further, why ignore clear commands (see my earlier posts)? We have limited time on this earth to teach and pray.

It's not wrong. It was not wrong for 1500 yrs and still is not wrong now. I don't think that Jesus after saying that the gates of hell would not prevail. That He would let people teach something so incredibly wrong.

As for the veneration of relics, there is an example which bears fruit and is not condemned. Of course, it too can be distinguished. It's not something to divide us.

I saw a lady getting anointed with tears that had come from an Icon at an Orthodox Church. She was suffering from cancer and she was cured.

Peace

 

[WarriorAngel]

The last part is where we differ. I ask why we should, you ask why not.

We never see it approved in the Bible. The one time somebody communicates with a heavenly saint, it is condemned (Saul to Samuel). I'm not hanging my hat on that example, perhaps it can be distinguished. But why teach what may be wrong? Further, why ignore clear commands (see my earlier posts)? We have limited time on this earth to teach and pray.

As for the veneration of relics, there is an example which bears fruit and is not condemned. Of course, it too can be distinguished. It's not something to divide us.

We also never see it revoked.

Lets look at Samuel...and Saul.

1 Kings
13 And the king said to her: Fear not: what hast thou seen? And the woman said to Saul: I saw gods ascending out of the earth. 14 And he said to her: What form is he of? And she said: An old man cometh up, and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul understood that it was Samuel, and he bowed himself with his face to the ground, and adored. 15 And Samuel said to Saul: Why hast thou disturbed my rest, that I should be brought up? And Saul said, I am in great distress: for the Philistines fight against me, and God is departed from me, and would not hear me, neither by the hand of prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest shew me what I shall do.


14 "Understood that it was Samuel"... It is the more common opinion of the holy fathers, and interpreters, that the soul of Samuel appeared indeed: and not, as some have imagined, an evil spirit in his shape. Not that the power of her magic could bring him thither, but that God was pleased for the punishment of Saul, that Samuel himself should denounce unto him the evils that were falling upon him. See Eccli. 46. 23.

16 And Samuel said: Why askest thou me, seeing the Lord has departed from thee, and is gone over to thy rival: 17 For the Lord will do to thee as he spoke by me, and he will rend thy kingdom out of thy hand, and will give it to thy neighbour David: 18 Because thou didst not obey the voice of the Lord, neither didst thou execute the wrath of his indignation upon Amalec. Therefore hath the Lord done to thee what thou sufferest this day. 19 And the Lord also will deliver Israel with thee into the hands of the Philistines: and tomorrow thou and thy sons shall be with me: and the Lord will also deliver the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines. 20 And forthwith Saul fell all along on the ground, for he was frightened with the words of Samuel, and there was no strength in him, for he had eaten no bread all that day.

19 "With me"... That is, in the state of the dead, and in another world, though not in the same place.


I also wish to add that Samuel KNEW God's intentions. And knew that his future [Saul's] was bleak, and his sons would die AND since Samuel was AT REST, we can certainly ascertain he was in a good place. Awaiting the gates of Heaven to be opened by Christ.

NOTE also, the bowing down, in which Samuel did not correct him.
Samuel was a great King, approved by God.

Apparently venerating him was not chastized.

Ecclesiasticus
21 And he crushed the princes of the Tyrians, and all the lords of the Philistines: 22 And before the time of the end of his life in the world, he protested before the Lord, and his anointed: money, or any thing else, even to a shoe, he had not taken of any man, and no mall did accuse him. 23 And after this he slept, and he made known to the king, and shewed him the end of his life, and he lifted up his voice from the earth in prophecy to blot out the wickedness of the nation.

 

[lionroar0]

I don't even see the need to call anyone other than our high priest and intercessor..we don't see Peter after Steven was martyred saying . OK , Steven is present with the Lord now we can petition..Or make a likeness of him to pray in front of..
i will stay on the safe side and pray according to the scriptures..

So your saying that you only ask Jesus to pray with and for you?

I didn,t need to bury a statue or ask st joseph to sell my house like my nieghbor..
I said Lord , I feel you calling us to move,,You open the door..two weeks ater the ad showed we got an offer for more than we paid..pax..kim

We don't "need" to ask for intercessions to the Saints just as people don't "need" to ask others to pray with and for them. The Scriptures do say that we are to pray for each other.

We can call on our family in heaven who have been baptised into one Body in Christ to help us. Just as I'm sure that many people have called on others to help them.

Peace

 

[Smileyill]

It is the more common opinion of the holy fathers, and interpreters, that the soul of Samuel appeared indeed: and not, as some have imagined, an evil spirit in his shape. Not that the power of her magic could bring him thither, but that God was pleased for the punishment of Saul, that Samuel himself should denounce unto him the evils that were falling upon him.

Here also we differ. Why do they have this opinion? Upon what do they base it? Samuel or not, the act of asking wasn't approved.

NOTE also, the bowing down, in which Samuel did not correct him.
Samuel was a great King, approved by God.

That is where I begin to suspect it wasn't Samuel. Everywhere else in scripture, that I recall, angels and saints refuse to accept bows. Also, Samuel wasn't a king...maybe that was a simple typo.

Good insight. Saul went to a witch to conjure up a spirit(Samuel) to gain knowledge of the future. Asking those in heaven to pray with and for us is not conjuring up a spirit for divination.

I don't know what is or isn't divination. I've never prayed to a saint or practiced witchcraft.

It's not wrong. It was not wrong for 1500 yrs and still is not wrong now. I don't think that Jesus after saying that the gates of hell would not prevail. That He would let people teach something so incredibly wrong.

Wrong is wrong regardless of it's age. I'm not convinced it's incredibly wrong, just wrong. God permitted multiple wives, even for his saints in the OT, yet it was wrong.
You're right, the gates of hell will not prevail.

I think we agree with the relic issue. If it bears fruit, so be it. I personally believe faith sets them free, not the relic. But it doesn't matter, God does best.

 

[christianmomof3]

Luke 1
46 And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord. 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. 48 Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. 49 Because he that is mighty, hath done great things to me; and holy is his name. 50 And his mercy is from generation unto generations, to them that fear him.
51 He hath shewed might in his arm: he hath scattered the proud in the conceit of their heart. 52 He hath put down the mighty from their seat, and hath exalted the humble.

Judg 5:24 Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be, Blessed shall she be above women in the tent
1 Kings 2:45 And king Solomon shall be blessed, and the throne of David shall be established before the LORD for ever.
1 Chron 26:5 Ammiel the sixth, Issachar the seventh, Peulthai the eighth: for God blessed him.
Ps 1:1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
Ps 21:6 For thou hast made him most blessed for ever: thou hast made him exceeding glad with thy countenance.
Ps 34:8 O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him.
Ps 128:1 Blessed is every one that feareth the LORD; that walketh in his ways.

 

[revduane]

WE DO NOT pray and bow as though they are God.

That is the mistake many infer or presume about the ancient Traditions.

WE pray to Saints, who in turn take our prayers to GOD...and Jesus is God BTW.
And Rev tells us that they do this.




James 4
10 Be humbled in the sight of the Lord, and he will exalt you.
1 Peter 5
6 Be you humbled therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in the time of visitation:

How about the veneration of relics??

ACTS 19
11 And God wrought by the hand of Paul more than common miracles. 12 So that even there were brought from his body to the sick, handkerchiefs and aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the wicked spirits went out of them.

No we are never commanded to pray to our brethren in Heaven....
But why would we not seek their assistance when they reside with the Lord, and offer up our prayers to God??

WE are ONE BODY.... and being in Heaven only amplifies their ability to assist us.

WHERE is scripture does it tell us that we must NOT seek their help??

In the OT look it up.

 

[Iollain]

Pretty hard to seek their help when they are not about or available on a phone line to Heaven.

 

[Veritas]

Ultimately, you have to ask yourself: why are prayers with the intercession of Mary and the other saints answered? The only possible reason is that God honours those requests. "We are ONE Body" in the Lord. There is no separation of it's members either in this life or the one to come when we are joined together in Christ. You praying for me, my praying for you, Mary praying for my intention, St. Perpetua praying for yours. It's all the same to God. He loves that we communicate our needs and desires to one another and ask for help and intercession.

For those of you who are parents, does it not please you to see your children helping and loving one another, praying for each other? If you have several children and one is thought by the other's to have an "in" with dad, haven't you ever experience a child coming to you with a request by a sibling? I remember asking my brother to ask my dad if I could be allowed to do something. Asking for the saints (members of our spiritual, Chrisitian family) to interceed for us is the same thing! The passing of a soul from this life to the next does not severe that familial bond! Praise be to God!

 

[revduane]

So your saying that you only ask Jesus to pray with and for you?



We don't "need" to ask for intercessions to the Saints just as people don't "need" to ask others to pray with and for them. The Scriptures do say that we are to pray for each other.

We can call on our family in heaven who have been baptised into one Body in Christ to help us. Just as I'm sure that many people have called on others to help them.

Peace

Are YOU Saying that you ONLY ASK JESUS.

ONLY ASK JESUS?

ONLY ASK?

ONLY?

L.R. I have been just laying low in this thread, but ONLY JESUS? Don't you know that hurts Him?

I am sorry, but it causght me wrong.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Ecclesiasticus
21 And he crushed the princes of the Tyrians, and all the lords of the Philistines: 22 And before the time of the end of his life in the world, he protested before the Lord, and his anointed: money, or any thing else, even to a shoe, he had not taken of any man, and no mall did accuse him. 23 And after this he slept, and he made known to the king, and shewed him the end of his life, and he lifted up his voice from the earth in prophecy to blot out the wickedness of the nation.

Smileyill, the above is the prophecy of Samuel's return to Saul.

If you read it, you will see.

So therefore, it was NOT wrong, but right.

 

[WarriorAngel]

In the OT look it up.

I have seen in the NT and Revelation that we can use their help......
I have seen in the OT that we can seek their help.....

Which verse are you interpretting to mean otherwise?

 

[Smileyill]

Chapter please? And do you mean Ecclesiastes?