really not praying to Mary???

[livingword26]

It's a good thing Catholics don't believe Mary to be a Mediator or Saviour, isn't it?

Pope John Paul II Encyclical Mother of the Redeemer (Redemptoris Mater) of March 25, 1987
40. After the events of the Resurrection and Ascension Mary entered the Upper Room together with the Apostles to await Pentecost, and was present there as the Mother of the glorified Lord. She was not only the one who "advanced in her pilgrimage of faith" and loyally persevered in her union with her Son "unto the Cross," but she was also the "handmaid of the Lord," left by her Son as Mother in the midst of the infant Church: "Behold your mother." Thus there began to develop a special bond between this Mother and the Church. For the infant Church was the fruit of the Cross and Resurrection of her Son. Mary, who from the beginning had given herself without reserve to the person and work of her Son, could not but pour out upon the Church, from the very beginning, her maternal self-giving. After her Son's departure, her motherhood remains in the Church as maternal mediation: interceding for all her children, the Mother cooperates in the saving work of her Son, the Redeemer of the world. In fact the Council teaches that the "motherhood of Mary in the order of grace . . . will last without interruption until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect." With the redeeming death of her Son, the maternal mediation of the handmaid of the Lord took on a universal dimension, for the work of redemption embraces the whole of humanity. Thus there is manifested in a singular way the efficacy of the one and universal mediation of Christ "between God and men" Mary's cooperation shares, in its subordinate character, in the universality of the mediation of the Redeemer, the one Mediator. This is clearly indicated by the Council in the words quoted above.
"For," the text goes on, "taken up to heaven, she did not lay aside this saving role, but by her manifold acts of intercession continues to win for us gifts of eternal salvation." With this character of "intercession," first manifested at Cana in Galilee, Mary's mediation continues in the history of the Church and the world. We read that Mary "by her maternal charity, cares for the brethren of her Son who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and difficulties, until they are led to their happy homeland." In this way Mary's motherhood continues unceasingly in the Church as the mediation which intercedes, and the Church expresses her faith in this truth by invoking Mary "under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix and Mediatrix."
Pope John Paul II Encyclical Mother of the Redeemer (Redemptoris Mater) of March 25, 1987
41. ... By the mystery of the Assumption into heaven there were definitively accomplished in Mary all the effects of the one mediation of Christ the Redeemer of the world and Risen Lord: "In Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ" (1 Cor. 15:22-23). In the mystery of the Assumption is expressed the faith of the Church, according to which Mary is "united by a close and indissoluble bond" to Christ, for, if as Virgin and Mother she was singularly united with him in his first coming, so through her continued collaboration with him she will also be united with him in expectation of the second; "redeemed in an especially sublime manner by reason of the merits of her Son," (109) she also has that specifically maternal role of Mediatrix of mercy at his final coming, when all those who belong to Christ "shall be made alive," when "the last enemy to be destroyed is death" (1 Cor. 15:26)." ...
Pope John Paul II Encyclical Mother of the Redeemer (Redemptoris Mater) of March 25, 1987
21. ... What deep understanding existed between Jesus and his mother? How can we probe the mystery of their intimate spiritual union? But the fact speaks for itself. It is certain that that event already quite clearly outlines the new dimension, the new meaning of Mary's motherhood. Her motherhood has a significance which is not exclusively contained in the words of Jesus and in the various episodes reported by the Synoptics (Lk. 11:27-28 and Lk. 8:19-21; Mt. 12:46-50; Mk. 3:31-35). In these texts Jesus means above all to contrast the motherhood resulting from the fact of birth with what this "motherhood" (and also "brotherhood") is to be in the dimension of the Kingdom of God, in the salvific radius of God's fatherhood. In John's text on the other hand, the description of the Cana event outlines what is actually manifested as a new kind of motherhood according to the spirit and not just according to the flesh, that is to say Mary's solicitude for human beings, her coming to them in the wide variety of their wants and needs. At Cana in Galilee there is shown only one concrete aspect of human need, apparently a small one of little importance ("They have no wine"). But it has a symbolic value: this coming to the aid of human needs means, at the same time, bringing those needs within the radius of Christ's messianic mission and salvific power. Thus there is a mediation: Mary places herself between her Son and mankind in the reality of their wants, needs and sufferings. She puts herself "in the middle," that is to say she acts as a Mediatrix not as an outsider, but in her position as mother. She knows that as such she can point out to her Son the needs of mankind, and in fact, she "has the right" to do so. Her mediation is thus in the nature of intercession: Mary "intercedes" for mankind. And that is not all. As a mother she also wishes the messianic power of her Son to be manifested, that salvific power of his which is meant to help man in his misfortunes, to free him from the evil which in various forms and degrees weighs heavily upon his life. Precisely as the Prophet Isaiah had foretold about the Messiah in the famous passage which Jesus quoted before his fellow townsfolk in Nazareth: "To preach good news to the poor . . . to proclaim release to the captives

I'm sorry folks, but Mary is not omnipresent and cannot hear all the worlds prayers.

 

[sent one]

sent one.

When understanding ther private prayers of the Pope (or popes) you must start from a basis of understanding to put thier words in context. They do not believe Mary is equal to God nor does she have the superrnatural power to act on her own on our bahalf. She is in Heaven and does indeed watch over us and prays for us. She act defender when she prsys to her son for us. She is a prayer warrior of the first order.

Also understand that many Catholic construct prayer almost as one would write poetry. They can seem at times to be overly sentimental or even Romantic. But that is the cultural difference between a Church that has been doing this for two millenia and a modern American viewpoint of proper prayer. Vastly different cultures.

But we can not interpolate what these pryaer mena without first understanding what they believe in the first place. That would not be fair.

Hey Metanoia02

THanks for replying. I don't know. I just have a hard time seeing that prayer as asking Mary to pray for something as opposed to praying to her to do it. It is very much worded that way.

I do want to say again that I really have much respect for much of what Catholics say, (particularly Eastern Orthodox, sorry Roman Catholics ) but I cannot get around the fact that taken at face value these prayers seem to be praying to Mary.

It is hard for me to see otherwise.

 

[lionroar0]

I'm sorry folks, but Mary is not omnipresent and cannot hear all the worlds prayers.

Do you know the mystery of heaven? Do you know mystery of the gifts of God?
Peace

 

[livingword26]

Do you know the mystery of heaven? Do you know mystery of the gifts of God?
Peace

No but I know the bible. Jesus told His disciples how to pray. He instructed them to pray to the Father in His name. He prayed to the His Father. Everyone in the bible prays to God. It is very clear. Assuming that Mary has become omni present is just that, an assumption. An assumption without anything to back it up, and much bible to refute it. God is omnipresent, He is our savior and the one mediator between God and man. Why do yo want to put someone else between you and God?

 

[livingword26]

Both by example and instruction Jesus told us to pray to God.

Mat 6:6
(6) But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Mat 6:9-15
(9) After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
(10) Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
(11) Give us this day our daily bread.
(12) And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
(13) And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever. Amen.
(14) For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
(15) But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Mat 9:38
(38) Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth laborers into his harvest.

Joh 14:16
(16) And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever;

Joh 16:26
(26) At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:

 

[revduane]

Not praying to Mary?
ok I will move it back since people are responding

Hey everybody

I am not here to bash or attack. But to really ask a question. I do hear Catholics say that they do not worship or pray to Mary. And I have heard their reasoning. I understand it much better than I use to while I am still not in agreement with the practice.

But I just read this prayer by Pope John Paul back in 1999 while he was visiting Poland and I cannot see how he is not praying directly to Mary and how He is not almost worshiping her. That is at least how I see it. But again that is why I am writing to find out How would a Catholic see this? Quote from prayer below...

"Mother of the Divine Son, watch over us, watch over our unshakable fidelity to God, to the Cross, to the Gospel and to the holy Church, as you have done since the first moments of our Christian history. Defend this nation which for a thousand years has walked the path of the Gospel. Grant that we live, grow and persevere in faith until the end.
"Hail, O Daughter of God the Father, Hail, O Mother of the Son of God, Hail, O Bride of the Holy Spirit, Temple of the Most Holy Trinity. Amen." - POPE JOHN PAUL II's
Address at Blessing of Marian Shrine
Poland, 1999 Monday, 7 June 1999
Notice the Mary "defend this nation" Mary defend the nation?

FULL TEXT AT THIS LINK>>
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/jo...lichen_en.html


Again, I am not wanting to bash. There is much about the Catholic faith that I really admire but I do not understand prayers like the one above. I could find more examples but I think the above will do.

Thanks for helping

Hey There sent.

There was a time when Bill Clinton was in the Presidency, he was confronted about smoking marijuana, he said, "Yes, I have smoked marijuana, but I never inhaled." Thats is about the same as saying that you put food in your mouth, chew it up, but you never swallow. I would say there has probably been at least one time in your life, that you have been around a person or people that have fired up a joint, and are definitly passing it around, and that everyone is inhaling, (and coughing).

When it comes to kneeling before a statue of Mary, or a shrine dedicated to her, that more than likely there is some worship or prayer going on, even though most people in the CC will say that they don't worship her. There is a great following of Mary, and a bunch of people do pray to her, or give her some kind of worship, because she has a great deal of holy sounding names, like the queen of heaven, etc. But when I was a catholic, we had quite a number of older women in the church that were very dedicated to Mary, and Marian worship. I have seen it happen many times.

It was said in an earlier post in this thread, that a mediator is a judge. This isn't always the case. A mediator is usually a go between, between 2 parties to obtain a mutual goal. So in other words, Mary is prayed to, and is asked to be the mediatrix, between us and God, to obtain God's due exaltation from us, and to obtain special favor from God to help the CC maintain good works, to get mercy on being brought out of purgatory for loved ones, and to seek better grace from God, because it is believed that the more, and better works you do, the better and more grace you obtain.

It sometimes seems like most RC's when it comes to Mary, walk a fine line that has been created, I pray to her to ask God for things. Or I kneel to her, but don't worship her, even though the Bible is clear about not making graven images, let alone kneeling at them.

To me and others that I know, it's the same type thing that Bill Clinton was doing. I smoke it, but i don't inhale. I kneel, and exalt her, but i don't worship her.

I hope this helps.

Blessings. Rev.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Not praying to Mary?
ok I will move it back since people are responding

Hey everybody

I am not here to bash or attack. But to really ask a question. I do hear Catholics say that they do not worship or pray to Mary. And I have heard their reasoning. I understand it much better than I use to while I am still not in agreement with the practice.

But I just read this prayer by Pope John Paul back in 1999 while he was visiting Poland and I cannot see how he is not praying directly to Mary and how He is not almost worshiping her. That is at least how I see it. But again that is why I am writing to find out How would a Catholic see this? Quote from prayer below...

"Mother of the Divine Son, watch over us, watch over our unshakable fidelity to God, to the Cross, to the Gospel and to the holy Church, as you have done since the first moments of our Christian history. Defend this nation which for a thousand years has walked the path of the Gospel. Grant that we live, grow and persevere in faith until the end.
"Hail, O Daughter of God the Father, Hail, O Mother of the Son of God, Hail, O Bride of the Holy Spirit, Temple of the Most Holy Trinity. Amen." - POPE JOHN PAUL II's
Address at Blessing of Marian Shrine
Poland, 1999 Monday, 7 June 1999
Notice the Mary "defend this nation" Mary defend the nation?

FULL TEXT AT THIS LINK>>
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/jo...lichen_en.html


Again, I am not wanting to bash. There is much about the Catholic faith that I really admire but I do not understand prayers like the one above. I could find more examples but I think the above will do.

Thanks for helping

I for one do not understand what you do not understand.

Luke 1
28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

42 Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. 43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?


DID not an Angel of God respond to Mary as Hail??
Did not Elizabeth call her the mother of the Lord?

It is a greeting, and more than that, it is a HIGHLY respectful greeting.

Did not she adopt mankind through her Son?

 

[WarriorAngel]

Hey Metanoia02

THanks for replying. I don't know. I just have a hard time seeing that prayer as asking Mary to pray for something as opposed to praying to her to do it. It is very much worded that way.

I do want to say again that I really have much respect for much of what Catholics say, (particularly Eastern Orthodox, sorry Roman Catholics ) but I cannot get around the fact that taken at face value these prayers seem to be praying to Mary.

It is hard for me to see otherwise.

Since we know through Revelation that Saints shall judge nations...what makes you think Jesus did not choose His Mother as the Most Holy of Saints??

AND we ask Her to watch over us, and pray for us...
If she is absent in regarding us, then how does she know She is being asked?

I like the prayer, but then again, I understand that Christ trusted her above all humans, since He created Her for a very important part of His life.

His Mother!

 

[BuzzardHut]

I pray to Mary.

Rdr Moses

I never hear many people admit to that.
Would Catholics agree with that?

 

[sent one]

I for one do not understand what you do not understand.

Luke 1
28 And the angel being come in, said unto her:Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

42 Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. 43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?


DID not an Angel of God respond to Mary as Hail??
Did not Elizabeth call her the mother of the Lord?

It is a greeting, and more than that, it is a HIGHLY respectful greeting.

Did not she adopt mankind through her Son?

Hey WarriorAngel Thanks for responding. I am not focusing in my post about the "Hail" aspect but on the fact that the prayers are directed to Mary to answer prayer. For example...To watch over us... To defend us, etc. I know you say that you are asking Mary to pray for you but in the above prayer and many others if taken at face value, it really seems that one is asking Mary to do things.. not pray about things. I know you will say that is not what is going on but I can only say that I cannot get around the fact that the prayers are not asking her to pray "for" but are asking her to "do".

Thanks again. I hope I am coming across respectful because I sure mean to be.

 

[revduane]

I never hear many people admit to that.
Would Catholics agree with that?

It is a first to me, to hear it on this forum.

Hey there buzz. Thanx for the websites they are great.

R.D.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

It was said in an earlier post in this thread, that a mediator is a judge. This isn't always the case. A mediator is usually a go between, between 2 parties to obtain a mutual goal. So in other words, Mary is prayed to, and is asked to be the mediatrix, between us and God, to obtain God's due exaltation from us, and to obtain special favor from God to help the CC maintain good works, to get mercy on being brought out of purgatory for loved ones, and to seek better grace from God, because it is believed that the more, and better works you do, the better and more grace you obtain.

I absolutely cannot and will not share that view. Paul was very explicit in 1 Tim 2:5 and in my view, Mary was more "symbolic" of Israel or maybe in Jerusalem/Judea but I haven't studied on that yet.

In either case, I don't believe it is a salvation issue as much as it is "adding to word", another words, "tradition" and if makes one feel better doing it, then so be it . Anyway, I am through with this thread and enjoy.

(Young) 1 Timothy 2:5 for one [is] God, ONE also [is] mediator of God and of men, the man Christ Jesus,

mesites (Strong's 3316) occurs 6 times in 6 verses:

3316. mesites mes-ee'-tace from 3319; a go-between, i.e. (simply) an internunciator, or (by implication) a reconciler (intercessor):--mediator.3319. mesos mes'-os from 3326; middle (as an adjective or (neuter) noun):--among, X before them, between, + forth, mid(-day, -night), midst, way. 3322. mesoo mes-o'-o from 3319; to form the middle, i.e. (in point of time), to be half-way over:--be about the midst.

 

[sent one]

Hey There sent.

There was a time when Bill Clinton was in the Presidency, he was confronted about smoking marijuana, he said, "Yes, I have smoked marijuana, but I never inhaled." Thats is about the same as saying that you put food in your mouth, chew it up, but you never swallow. I would say there has probably been at least one time in your life, that you have been around a person or people that have fired up a joint, and are definitly passing it around, and that everyone is inhaling, (and coughing).

When it comes to kneeling before a statue of Mary, or a shrine dedicated to her, that more than likely there is some worship or prayer going on, even though most people in the CC will say that they don't worship her. There is a great following of Mary, and a bunch of people do pray to her, or give her some kind of worship, because she has a great deal of holy sounding names, like the queen of heaven, etc. But when I was a catholic, we had quite a number of older women in the church that were very dedicated to Mary, and Marian worship. I have seen it happen many times.

It was said in an earlier post in this thread, that a mediator is a judge. This isn't always the case. A mediator is usually a go between, between 2 parties to obtain a mutual goal. So in other words, Mary is prayed to, and is asked to be the mediatrix, between us and God, to obtain God's due exaltation from us, and to obtain special favor from God to help the CC maintain good works, to get mercy on being brought out of purgatory for loved ones, and to seek better grace from God, because it is believed that the more, and better works you do, the better and more grace you obtain.

It sometimes seems like most RC's when it comes to Mary, walk a fine line that has been created, I pray to her to ask God for things. Or I kneel to her, but don't worship her, even though the Bible is clear about not making graven images, let alone kneeling at them.

To me and others that I know, it's the same type thing that Bill Clinton was doing. I smoke it, but i don't inhale. I kneel, and exalt her, but i don't worship her.

I hope this helps.

Blessings. Rev.

Hey Rev Thanks for your colorful reply. I know what Non-catholics point of view of this is. You certainly put it in an interesting way though. But, I really am here to get the Catholic point of view. I really want to understand as much as I can where they are coming from. I may not agree with it but I do want to understand their point of view on this.

Thanks again for responding. You have a good night now ya hear

 

[Davidnic]

I never hear many people admit to that.
Would Catholics agree with that?

If you define Pray as "speak" "Ask" or "have a relationship with" then yep. For us Prayer does not equal worship in all cases.

Worship is given to God. Prayer can be worship but does not have to be. Prayer to Mary is veneration and respect. Only God gets worship.

To me prayer is relationship. It draws us closer to God. Does my prayer to Mary draw me into a better understanding and relationship with God? Yep. But it is not worship.

So I guess the best way to say it is Catholics pray to Mary but all prayer is not worship. Worship is for God alone. When we pray to Mary what do we do? We ask her to pray for us as I would ask anyone.

 

[Davidnic]

This is how I usually explain it:

Alot of the misunderstanding comes from the use of the word pray. We don't give praise or worship that is for God alone to Mary or the saints, we venerate them as Holy. But we say "pray" because it is the best word we have to describe talking to someone who is now with God. Put prayer in this case is not worship.

In the greek it would be Dulia (veneration and recognition of the Holy in another created being) given to Mary and the Saints.

But Latria (Worship) is for God alone. A term Hyperdulia is sometimes used for Mary because she is greater than all of the other saints.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Hey WarriorAngel Thanks for responding. I am not focusing in my post about the "Hail" aspect but on the fact that the prayers are directed to Mary to answer prayer. For example...To watch over us... To defend us, etc. I know you say that you are asking Mary to pray for you but in the above prayer and many others if taken at face value, it really seems that one is asking Mary to do things.. not pray about things. I know you will say that is not what is going on but I can only say that I cannot get around the fact that the prayers are not asking her to pray "for" but are asking her to "do".

Thanks again. I hope I am coming across respectful because I sure mean to be.

I see many ppl talking to loved ones who have passed away.

Grandpa, if you hear me, help me....etc etc

And countless of times ppl MISTAKE what prayer means. It means a conversation.

And seeking Mary's intercessory is not in error.

Luke tells us she will read man's hearts. This is what Simon said when he saw Jesus.

I am rather incredulous that anyone thinks Saints in Heaven have lost interest in us, and are unable to be omniscent.

How can Saints judge the nations....from heaven if they do not have a clue what is going on??

Of course they know.
And speaking to Mary as a friend and asking her to watch over us is not wrong.

IF we have a 'friendship' with Christ, then we also understand the depth of love and honor He gives His mother.

TO which no one can show me one verse He says she is sinner. Nor does He deny Her the requests she asks.

Prayer = conversation.

PRAYER is NOT worship.

Peace!

 

[ROGER459]

Back to the Original Subject? As I and many other Christians believe in the Complete Authority of the Holy Scriptures = AND NOT IN ANY CHURCH DOCTRINE OR WRITINGS OF MEN!

PLEASE Provide me with a Chapter and Verse = where it says that we are to pray to mary to pray for us?

Thanks, Roger459

P.S. Remember EVEN Bill Clintion went to Church every Sunday, even when he was involved with Monica Lewinsky!

 

[sent one]

So I guess the best way to say it is Catholics pray to Mary but all prayer is not worship. Worship is for God alone. When we pray to Mary what do we do? We ask her to pray for us as I would ask anyone.

Hey Davidnic,

So, let me challenge that a bit just for some clarification.

If I ask my best friend (Agnieszka is her name )to pray for me, I ask her to pray to God that I may get better from illness, for God to protect me , get a job etc.

But what if I ask my best friend like this,
"oh Agnieszka, heal me, please protect me and get me that job."
To me that makes a very big difference. See what I mean? I mean that is how this prayer to mary seems to come across.

AGAIN> I am not saying this with any disrespect or am I trying to prove a point but I am writing that so I can see all of your responses and maybe understand more.

Thanks

 

[WarriorAngel]

Back to the Original Subject? As I and many other Christians believe in the Complete Authority of the Holy Scriptures = AND NOT IN ANY CHURCH DOCTRINE OR WRITINGS OF MEN!

PLEASE Provide me with a Chapter and Verse = where it says that we are to pray to mary to pray for us?

Thanks, Roger459

P.S. Remember EVEN Bill Clintion went to Church every Sunday, even when he was involved with Monica Lewinsky!

I find that ironic on so many levels.

The Apostles were men, and the scripture is/was CHURCH property.

Here is something............
Maybe you overlooked this. BUT MARY WAS ALIVE when the NT was written.

 

[livingword26]

I find that ironic on so many levels.

The Apostles were men, and the scripture is/was CHURCH property.

Here is something............
Maybe you overlooked this. BUT MARY WAS ALIVE when the NT was written.

Scripture was/is the Word of God. You can't answer him because it is not in there.

2Ti 3:16
(16) All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: