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really not praying to Mary???

WarriorAngel

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I can't imagine how I have changed the subject. The point of the conversation is "praying to Mary". Jesus taught us to pray to the Father. He didi not teach us to pray to anyone else. What does this have to do with honoring His mother? If He wanted us to pray to His mother, after she was "assumed", He could have told us that. But He didn't, nor did He teach us to pray to anyone else, alive or dead, but to God our Father. No where in the bible is Mary given omnipresence, or the ability to mediate, nor any other human. Jesus Christ alone is our mediator, and God alone is the recipient of our prayers.

Since Jesus died before His Mother, how would He teach that?

St John says not all things could be written.

Revelation says the SAINTS SHALL JUDGE NATIONS....JUDGE!!!

Mary is a Saint, therefore in order to judge she has to KNOW what is going on.....

Furthermore, Revelation also tells us that the Saints in Heaven present the prayers of the saints on earth, to God. That is a form of intercession.

SIMON SAYS MARY'S heart shall be pierced by the sword, and SHE WILL READ HEARTS OF MEN!!

Conversing?
Is Mary Omnipresent? if not, your prayers are only heard by God or if vocalized also by Satan.

If yes...
Wouldn't that make her a deity?

Honor is a respect due to the most blessed humans (Mary), but, IMHO don't waste your energy talking to one whom can not hear you, surely, this is displeasing to our Savior. There is but one mediator!

:scratch: What...vocalized by satan??
What is that about?

MARY READS MENS HEARTS!!!!!

What part of that is false?? Did not Simon state that??

If she reads the hearts of men, how do you figure she cannot hear us??

What is displeasing is insulting the role He set up for His Mother, and the lack of respect she gets in some corners of those who profess their devotion to Him, but omit the role He defined for His Mother.

Both in the OT, the prophecy of Her by Simon, by the Angel, by her cousin Elizabeth...etc

BY HIS CLEAR example of 'doing as she said at Cana'.......
 
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WarriorAngel

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What is foriegn to mainstream christianity is the new found idea [which was NOT even considered in the beginning] that Mary is not held Highly favored by God, and that She has a role both stated in scriptures, and implied.

She is Blessed for ALL generations.

NO ONE here can make claims against Christ's Mother, when the LOVE of One's Mother was a well known fact in His day.

DID the writers have to expressly write the devotion they had for her on earth and then when she died??

WAS not Mary humble on earth?
Would they scandalize her while she lived??

The implications of Her Role were here since the beginning....with the knowledge She was ASSUMED into Heaven......as only those HIGHLY favored by God were.

WHY must we...the ones who do not honor our mothers as we should, as Jesus chastized the pharisees for not doing so, but worrying over washing their hands. WHY must we judge the impossible task of HOW God runs Heaven, and HOW much LOVE He has for Mary.

HE CREATED HER specifically to be HIS MOTHER.....the closest bond on earth.

IF you understand the former....Jesus is comparing the 4th commandment to their hand washing.

4TH COMMAND because it ranks right below honoring God...and before the other 6.
 
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simonthezealot

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Since Jesus died before His Mother, how would He teach that?

St John says not all things could be written.

Revelation says the SAINTS SHALL JUDGE NATIONS....JUDGE!!!

Mary is a Saint, therefore in order to judge she has to KNOW what is going on.....

Furthermore, Revelation also tells us that the Saints in Heaven present the prayers of the saints on earth, to God. That is a form of intercession.

SIMON SAYS MARY'S heart shall be pierced by the sword, and SHE WILL READ HEARTS OF MEN!!





MARY READS MENS HEARTS!!!!!
Omnipresent?

Did not Simon state that??
What?


If she reads the hearts of men, how do you figure she cannot hear us??
So she is a deity?


What is displeasing is insulting the role He set up for His Mother,
define please the role he set for her

and the lack of respect she gets in some corners of those who profess their devotion to Him, but omit the role He defined for His Mother.
Praising her subtracts our to devotion to Him and He Himself places limited importance on his own Mother in Luke.

BY HIS CLEAR example of 'doing as she said at Cana'.......
Read it again, "do what he says"
 
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lionroar0

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No but I know the bible. Jesus told His disciples how to pray. He instructed them to pray to the Father in His name. He prayed to the His Father. Everyone in the bible prays to God. It is very clear. Assuming that Mary has become omni present is just that, an assumption. An assumption without anything to back it up, and much bible to refute it. God is omnipresent, He is our savior and the one mediator between God and man. Why do yo want to put someone else between you and God?

You position is that Mary is omnipresent is a false premise. Mary is not omnipresent but in heaven. HOw does she hear all those that call on her name? It's a mystery. Just when Jesus said that all of heaven rejoices when one sinner repents. How could all of heaven know that one sinner has repented or that there are multititude of sinners repenting right now? We don't know how they know. It's a mystery. We do now that it happens.

If you know how all of heaven rejoices when one sinner repents, just as Jesus says they do then, you should have no problem telling us how Mary does or does not hear us.

An assumption without anything to back it up, and much bible to refute it. God is omnipresent, He is our savior and the one mediator between God and man. Why do yo want to put someone else between you and God
Your arguing straw man here.

Peace
 
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livingword26

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Since Jesus died before His Mother, how would He teach that?

St John says not all things could be written.

Revelation says the SAINTS SHALL JUDGE NATIONS....JUDGE!!!

Mary is a Saint, therefore in order to judge she has to KNOW what is going on.....

Furthermore, Revelation also tells us that the Saints in Heaven present the prayers of the saints on earth, to God. That is a form of intercession.

SIMON SAYS MARY'S heart shall be pierced by the sword, and SHE WILL READ HEARTS OF MEN!!


I might answer to these if you actually listed scriptural references.
 
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WarriorAngel

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Apocalypse 2
26 And he that shall overcome, and keep my works unto the end, I will give him power over the nations.

26 "Power over the nations"... This shows, that the saints, who are with Christ our Lord in heaven, receive power from him to preside over nations and provinces, as patrons; and shall come with him at the end of the world to execute his will against those who have not kept his commandments.
 
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christianmomof3

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Revelation says the SAINTS SHALL JUDGE NATIONS....JUDGE!!!

Mary is a Saint, therefore in order to judge she has to KNOW what is going on.....


Furthermore, Revelation also tells us that the Saints in Heaven present the prayers of the saints on earth, to God. That is a form of intercession.

SIMON SAYS MARY'S heart shall be pierced by the sword, and SHE WILL READ HEARTS OF MEN!!
I also have some questions about this.
Where does Simon (do you mean Peter?) say that Marywill read the hearts of men?
I did a search on Mary and heart and did not come up with any verses that state that or anything close to it.
As for the part about judging - you listed Apocalypse as a book in the Bible. Did you mean Revelation? I read Rev. 2:26 and it is referring to the overcomers having authority over the nations in the millenial kingdom - not dead people judging living people in this age.
 
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Axion

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There is no need for Mary to have Omniscience to hear prayers. Scripture says the Saints will carry the prayers of the Saints on earth to God in heaven. We do not have to understand the method to accept it. Just as we do not have to understand television to know that one person can talk to millions all over the world without omnipresence.


Hebrews 12.1 speaks of "a great cloud of witnesses" who surround us, and who consist of the faithful holy ones of God. Many examples of these witnesses are given in the preceding Chapter 11 of Hebrews.

Later in the Bible we see this vision of heaven:

Revelation 4.4: Surrounding the throne were twenty four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads.
Revelation 5.
8: ...and the twenty four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

The twenty-four elders are shown offering the prayers of Christians to God; which is a mediatory role.

 
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Iollain

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Luk 2:21 ¶ And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.


Luk 2:22 ¶ And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present [him] to the Lord;


Luk 2:23 (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord; )


Luk 2:24 And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.


Luk 2:25 ¶ And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name [was] Simeon; and the same man [was] just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.


Luk 2:26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.


Luk 2:27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law,


Luk 2:28 Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said,


Luk 2:29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:


Luk 2:30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,


Luk 2:31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;


Luk 2:32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.


Luk 2:33 And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him.


Luk 2:34 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this [child] is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against;


Luk 2:35 (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.




So how do you get Mary reading thoughts out of this?

This is a prophetic word to Mary that all would not be as the Jews thought it to be about the Messiah, who they thought would be a great ruler on earth in his time, this is a warning to Mary that great sorrow would come to her in being the mother of Jesus.....as in the Crucifixion.

The hearts of many being revealed has to do with Jesus and the Holy Spirit.



Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.





Mat 9:4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?



Mat 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:


Luk 5:22 But when Jesus perceived their thoughts, he answering said unto them, What reason ye in your hearts?



Luk 6:8 But he knew their thoughts, and said to the man which had the withered hand, Rise up, and stand forth in the midst. And he arose and stood forth.



Luk 11:17 But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house [divided] against a house falleth.



Luk 24:38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?








Now notice the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in verse 27:








Rom 8:1 ¶ [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.


Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:


Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.


Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.


Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.


Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.


Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.


Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.


Rom 8:12 ¶ Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.


Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.


Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.


Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.


Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:


Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together.


Rom 8:18 ¶ For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory which shall be revealed in us.


Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.


Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope,


Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.


Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.


Rom 8:23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.


Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?


Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, [then] do we with patience wait for [it].


Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.


Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what [is] the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to [the will of] God.


Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.


Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.


Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


Rom 8:31 ¶ What shall we then say to these things? If God [be] for us, who [can be] against us?


Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?


Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? [It is] God that justifieth.


Rom 8:34 Who [is] he that condemneth? [It is] Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.


Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? [shall] tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?


Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.


Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.


Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,


Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.






....it is through the power of the Holy Spirit indwelling many will be saved, nothing to do with Mary reading hearts. Once again people trying to get rid of God's works in the Spirit and replace it with Mary, imo.
 
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christianmomof3

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Luk 2:34 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this [child] is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against;


Luk 2:35 (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed
Ok, so this is Simeon - not Simon.
These verses show us that the Lord Jesus was appointed to be a test to the children of Israel, and many would be raised up by Him and many would be stumbled by Him. The Lord is also spoken against by many.
What is written in our hearts is easily revealed by our attitude towards Christ.
It does not say that these thoughts are revealed only to Mary or even who they are revealed to.
 
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WarriorAngel

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First, saying those alive in Heaven are dead, is wrong.
Most of the NT describes life as being in Heaven.

Saints; deaprted, assist in prayers Luke 16, 9; 1 Cor 12, 8; Apoc [Rev] 5, 8.
Communion with the Saints; Hebrews 12, 22
Have power over nations; Apoc [Rev] 2, 26; 5, 10.
They are WITH Christ in Heaven, BEFORE the general Resurrection; 2 Cor, 5, 1 6-8; Phil 1, 23; Apoc [Rev] 4.4; 6, 9; 7, 9, 14, 15; 14, 1, 3; 19, 1 4-6; 20, 4


 
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WarriorAngel

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Luke 1
46 And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord. 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. 48 Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. 49 Because he that is mighty, hath done great things to me; and holy is his name. 50 And his mercy is from generation unto generations, to them that fear him.
51 He hath shewed might in his arm: he hath scattered the proud in the conceit of their heart. 52 He hath put down the mighty from their seat, and hath exalted the humble.
 
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Smileyill

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Correct, we never die spiritually. We're immortal either in heaven or hell. Also correct that we call Mary blessed. But so was Samuel.

Perhaps saints in heaven see all. Perhaps they pray for us. How does that imply we should ask them to pray for us? Scripture clearly states angels minister, yet we are never told to pray or bow before them.

I see 2 ways scripture teaches us. Either it commands us or an example is given and commended. We're never commanded to pray to the saints in heaven. The only example I recall is where King Saul prays to Samuel. I Samuel 28:14. There his actions are clearly wrong. When the rich man speaks from hell, his prayers aren't answered and who would look toward him or Saul as an example anyway?
 
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