really not praying to Mary???

[WarriorAngel]

Are YOU Saying that you ONLY ASK JESUS.

ONLY ASK JESUS?

ONLY ASK?

ONLY?

L.R. I have been just laying low in this thread, but ONLY JESUS? Don't you know that hurts Him?

I am sorry, but it causght me wrong.

Not seeing how this hurts Christ.

James 5 16 Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.

We are exhorted to pray for one another, and I am sure LR meant that with these options, does the other person ONLY speak to Christ or does He get help in praying.

 

[revduane]

Ultimately, you have to ask yourself: why are prayers with the intercession of Mary and the other saints answered? The only possible reason is that God honours those requests. "We are ONE Body" in the Lord. There is no separation of it's members either in this life or the one to come when we are joined together in Christ. You praying for me, my praying for you, Mary praying for my intention, St. Perpetua praying for yours. It's all the same to God. He loves that we communicate our needs and desires to one another and ask for help and intercession.

For those of you who are parents, does it not please you to see your children helping and loving one another, praying for each other? If you have several children and one is thought by the other's to have an "in" with dad, haven't you ever experience a child coming to you with a request by a sibling? I remember asking my brother to ask my dad if I could be allowed to do something. Asking for the saints (members of our spiritual, Chrisitian family) to interceed for us is the same thing! The passing of a soul from this life to the next does not severe that familial bond! Praise be to God!

Hey Veritas.

So to pray to Mary is a-okay? Or to pray to loved ones that are departed is okay? My Grandmother was a very godly woman. She had this presence about her. She shined with genleness, but there was a godly strength about her I can't really explain.

I don't talk to her, because I know that I will be with her soon enough. She was definitely Born Again. She was giving. She was tender. She was an example of Faith. She loved God when she was alive. She was blessed.

But I have never seen a statue of her in any church. I have never seen people show her the devotion that is shown to Mary. So if Mary isn't worshipped, you know in some form or fashion, then why the devotion to her over other people? Why all of the graven, oooppss, I mean statues made in her likeness. Also why is she depicted in the apparitions that have been reported, as a Catholic looking Mary, with flowing robes, and with a RC Flair? When She was a Jew? I am truly curious.

 

[revduane]

Not seeing how this hurts Christ.

James 5 16 Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.

We are exhorted to pray for one another, and I am sure LR meant that with these options, does the other person ONLY speak to Christ or does He get help in praying.

Yes this is true. But it doesn't say we are to pray for dead people, or to dead people. This is to say that they are omniscient.

 

[mike1reynolds]

I don't talk to her, because I know that I will be with her soon enough.

That is how atheists do it too. If she has eternal life than it is possible to talk to her, and she might even be irritated at you for ignoring her. Did you ever consider that?

 

[WarriorAngel]

Eccl. 46. 23.

I already gave the book's name, twice.
Ecclesiasticus
21 And he crushed the princes of the Tyrians, and all the lords of the Philistines: 22 And before the time of the end of his life in the world, he protested before the Lord, and his anointed: money, or any thing else, even to a shoe, he had not taken of any man, and no mall did accuse him. 23 And after this he slept, and he made known to the king, and shewed him the end of his life, and he lifted up his voice from the earth in prophecy to blot out the wickedness of the nation.


Ecclesiasticus
Chapter 46 The praise of Josue, of Caleb, and of Samuel.

 

[mike1reynolds]

As Redd Foxx clutches his heart and flails his other arm, “‘Uoisey! ‘Uoisey! I’m coming ‘Uoisey!”

Do you think that these were demonically inspired statements, Rev?

 

[Smileyill]

Warrior Angel,

Ok you don't mean Ecclesiastes. I found the link. I'm afraid that Ecclesiasticus isn't in my Bible. It's part of the
apocrypha. Although perhaps good for teaching, it generally isn't regarded as scripture. Even Catholics didn't accept it until 1546 at the council of Trent. The earliest I know was the Syrian church about 400 A.D. I know little about it, to be honest.

Regardless, we'll have to agree to disagree if you must use it for support.

 

[eoe]

So if Mary isn't worshipped, you know in some form or fashion, then why the devotion to her over other people?

Because she is extra special and has an extra special relatoinship with Christ our God.

I have other Saints that I love too. My avatar is St. John the Wonderworker. I love to read about him and his life specifically because of his relationship with God. I love St. John because of his relationship to Christ. I love Mary because of who she is in relation to Christ.

All of this comes down to the fact that the Saints were great Christians. It is because of Christ that we love them.

 

[WarriorAngel]

So if Mary isn't worshipped, you know in some form or fashion, then why the devotion to her over other people?

We should ask the Lord that ....after all HE choose Her, and CREATED HER for the role of His Mother.

Not be dismissed nor taken lightly.

Yes this is true. But it doesn't say we are to pray for dead people, or to dead people. This is to say that they are omniscient.

No, This is to say you are misreading or misapplying scriptures.

HAS the term dead in Christ ever been in scriptures?

Or is it alive in Christ?

Has Christ ever once said Heaven is where dead ppl go.....or did HE SAY the living??

 

[WarriorAngel]

Warrior Angel,

Ok you don't mean Ecclesiastes. I found the link. I'm afraid that Ecclesiasticus isn't in my Bible. It's part of the
apocrypha. Although perhaps good for teaching, it generally isn't regarded as scripture. Even Catholics didn't accept it until 1546 at the council of Trent. The earliest I know was the Syrian church about 400 A.D. I know little about it, to be honest.

Regardless, we'll have to agree to disagree if you must use it for support.

I will freely admit this frustrates me to the point of tears.....

WHY???

Because it was ALWAYS CONSIDERED scripture, and not only did Christ quote the books you refer to as Apocrypha..but so did the Apostles, and the Church defined them as canon in THEIR FIRST councils...!!
Before, and after 400 AD.

Lets not go into the whole Trent this....or that.

Trent did NOT add them nor consider them on the spot as canon...but made it clear and defined that it shall REMAIN CANON.

 

[Davidnic]

Nothing in Marian devotion calls for Mary to be omnisceint. To be omniscient is a quality only to God. Any knowledge that Mary and the saints have beyond the norm is totally at the will and grace of God.

The ability of Mary the saints to hear our prayers so they can pray with us and for us is a function the will of God to allow and provide for such things.

It is a common misconception that for Mary to hear our prayers (the prayers of so many) that it implies the quality of being omniscient.

However when God sends prophecy to a person that does not mean that they know all things and are omniscient. It only means that God wills them to know. God wills a gift so they can carry out His plan.

Part of the Church's view of omniscience is that God depends on Himself alone for knowledge. Mary can not claim that, nor does the Church attribute that to her.

Like all Marian devotion, to be true it must serve to glorify God and not detract from Him. God allowing Mary and the saints the ability to pray for us as family and friends serves to glorify His unending and infinite mercy and love. His desire to bring us to the fulfillment of Christ's prayer (John 17:22) that all may be one. That living or dead those who love the Lord are one body.

 

[revduane]

As Redd Foxx clutches his heart and flails his other arm, “‘Uoisey! ‘Uoisey! I’m coming ‘Uoisey!”

Do you think that these were demonically inspired statements, Rev?

First of all it isn't uoisey. its Elizabeth.

Second. There are alot of demonically inspired things, that are never really dealt with on a true level of recognized demonic things.

Third. I knew the minute I posted in a CC thread, you would be there.

Fourth. My grandmother wouldn't stand for being prayed to. Anything that was elevated above Jesus by other people just irked that woman. As a little boy, she would tell me to make sure that I walked this side of life with Jesus, so I would walk the other side with him as well. She was a great woman of God, that knew where she was in the Kingdom. On earth it was always Jesus.

 

[mike1reynolds]

Your grandmother couldn't stand to have you ask her to pray for you? You have a very strange grandmother if she refuses to pray for you. I think you have her all wrong.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Hey ppl....I have to walk away for now.

I am so tired of the same battle against Catholics, who hold the same beliefs as the first Christians, and that Church still remains today, holding onto Apostolic Tradition and succession....

I am sorry you cannot grasp that history is our truth. And to define what the Church has always believed one can only go to the historical accounts of the earliest Church Fathers to find answers.

I can certainly see why some Saints became hermits. After battling to keep the truth intact...they needed a much needed reprieve from nay sayers telling them what was never taught should be taught.

2000 years of history, and a common bond with the other Apostolic Churches in Tradition should give a clue as to the fact we didnt make up praying to Mary...but has been a held common belief that started from the Apostles.

WHO taught and preached many things outside of what they were forced to write about. In denouncement of the first heresies.

Who seeks answers? Who wants the truth, wrapped tight, and handed to them so there is no room for fault?

DO you? DO you really? Just ask yourself, then ask history.

 

[mike1reynolds]

Second. There are alot of demonically inspired things, that are never really dealt with on a true level of recognized demonic things.

Yes, even within the practices of Christianity this is true. The question is, do you really think that Redd Foxx was demonically inspired to refer to speaking to his deceased wife? He didn't make this up, this is extremely COMMON among people who really miss their deceased loved ones. I'm asking you if you think that all these people are really demonic? I think it is love, and that you have turned love completely on its head here.

Third. I knew the minute I posted in a CC thread, you would be there.

That is true of a lot of people. You are the first to take it personally. Consider it a complement rather than an insult.

 

[lionroar0]

Are YOU Saying that you ONLY ASK JESUS.

ONLY ASK JESUS?

ONLY ASK?

ONLY?

L.R. I have been just laying low in this thread, but ONLY JESUS? Don't you know that hurts Him?

I am sorry, but it causght me wrong.

ANd that's how we feel when people don't acknowlegde His family that is with Him in Heaven. Just as it would be the same when people don't acknowldge His family on earth.

Peace

 

[WarriorAngel]

BTW.......I am not saying I am a Saint...but rather that I now understand why some lived in isolation.

 

[Smileyill]

Quote:
Warrior Angel,

Ok you don't mean Ecclesiastes. I found the link. I'm afraid that Ecclesiasticus isn't in my Bible. It's part of the
apocrypha. Although perhaps good for teaching, it generally isn't regarded as scripture. Even Catholics didn't accept it until 1546 at the council of Trent. The earliest I know was the Syrian church about 400 A.D. I know little about it, to be honest.

Regardless, we'll have to agree to disagree if you must use it for support.

I will freely admit this frustrates me to the point of tears.....

WHY???

Because it was ALWAYS CONSIDERED scripture, and not only did Christ quote the books you refer to as Apocrypha..but so did the Apostles, and the Church defined them as canon in THEIR FIRST councils...!!
Before, and after 400 AD.

Lets not go into the whole Trent this....or that.

Trent did NOT add them nor consider them on the spot as canon...but made it clear and defined that it shall REMAIN CANON.

Don't cry.

Eventually I'll look into those books more, but not now. School requires too much. I really don't know why most Protestants don't accept them. I have scant knowledge and cannot honestly agree or disagree with you or even discuss them intelligently.

But don't cry, I have a soft spot for women who cry and that's not fair.

 

[praisenworship]

I have been reading this thread for a while and I would like to chime in because I came from a Catholic upbringing. I also used to pray to Mary and the saints and did not really read the bible. I did not really know who Jesus is and had no relationship with God until I joined a non-denominational church and was taught to read the bible. I realized that praying to Mary was wrong as I made her my God and Savior and not the Lord Jesus Christ. My Christianity consisted of going to Mass on Sunday and only praying if I was in trouble. I committed sins over and over because I knew that I could just go to confession and my sins are forgiven by praying the rosary or novenas to saints. I also believed that if I did enough good things, I will be saved by my works. I also believed in purgatory. I have read the bible and now I realized that my beliefs and that of my family were wrong.

People are arguing here that praying to Mary is okay and will not hinder your salvation. I would like all of you to know that my mother prayed to Mary and just like I was, did not really know Jesus Christ. She died when she was 59, about 10 years ago. At her deathbed, she was crying out for help and was so scared because she saw snakes crawling on her hospital bed and the ceiling of her room. If praying to Mary was effective for salvation, why were there snakes awaiting her at her deathbed? These were her final words as she died and I certainly hope that she had called out to her true savior, Jesus Christ in her last few breaths before death. Would you really gamble your eternal life because of the belief that praying to Mary is okay?

I believe that the bible says we should only pray to and worship the triune God and nobody else. The bible says we cannot talk to the dead and consult them. Growing up, I really believed Mary as deity and equal to Jesus Christ. Bishop Liguori even taught that prayers to Mary were more effective, that is, answered quicker than if you prayed to Jesus. Please do not gamble your souls just because you want to be right or because of family tradition. God is our treasure and our hope. He is our salvation and the only way, truth and life is through the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[revduane]

Yes, even within the practices of Christianity this is true. The question is, do you really think that Redd Foxx was demonically inspired to refer to speaking to his deceased wife? He didn't make this up, this is extremely COMMON among people who really miss their deceased loved ones. I'm asking you if you think that all these people are really demonic? I think it is love, and that you have turned love completely on its head here.[/COLOR]

[/COLOR][/SIZE]That is true of a lot of people. You are the first to take it personally. Consider it a complement rather than an insult.[/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE]

Mike. You are wanting to talk about demons 101. Okay. First of all Redd Foxx was a T.V.Actor. Okay?

How many things are accomplished by christians and non christians alike, that exalt the devil, and the person doing it, does't even know it? I see Mormons as a cult. Most do. They believe they are right. But right or wrong, they are in a controversy. And when this controversy is brought up, they will say, (I have heard them do it.) We are the true church, and we need to pray for all of those lost people that say they are christians, but because they don't embrace out traditions, they are hell bound.

Enough said.